This is why I put players in Tiers rather than absolutes. Beckenbauer, Maldini, Baresi, etc would all be Tier-4 players if we did not account for what's required for their roles, rather than just look at dribbling, passing and scoring stats. You may argue that Xavi is in a higher Tier than Makelele but to say Makelele is nowhere near Xavi (considering their ability to perform specific roles) is not a valid opinion.
So where is Modric rated in best CM’s of all time ?
- Thread starter 432JuanMata
- Start date
He single handedly performed the role for Real Madrid when our midfield-4 consisted of Makelele and 3 out of Zidane (AM/LW), Figo (LM/RM/AM), McManaman (AM/LW/RW) and Solari (LW/AM). Madrid of 2000-03 was an exceptionally unbalanced midfield of all out attackers who were weak in tackling. None of them was a CM or a DLP. Fullbacks weren't sitting playmakers like Cancelo. Madrid's attack looked something like this:
-----------------Helguera ------------- Hierro
------------------------------Makelele
Salgado------Figo------Zidane--------Solari---------Carlos
-------------------Morientes-----------------Raul
You are badly underestimating his performance for Madrid.
I wasn't referring to his Real days, I was referring to his time in England and that moniker people try to call the Makelele role.
Redondo did it better for Real, at both ends of the pitch.
I have no idea how Beckenbauer, Maldini & Baresi are helping you to make your point. They have transcended their roles because they were all-time great talents. Same goes for Xavi, who was perhaps the most influential (not best, that would be Messi) player of the past 20 years in terms of football’s general development.
Makélélé was a world-class holding midfielder, same as Deschamps, Zito, Voronin, Desailly (when played there), Rijkaard and Redondo. And I’d take half of them ahead of him given the choice. He didn’t invent anything and neither was he the most influential player in his team at any point.
Yep.
Good post (as always). Completely agree.
If you go back a few years before Makélélé, you can find numerous examples of players doing his thing - both limited (technically and in terms of passing capacity) and more , let's say, expansive players. His role, as such, was nothing new. And it had been played by (much) better footballers than him in various setups decades before the so-called Makélélé role became something people talked about.
Xavi > Modric, that much is very clear to anyone who watched both in their pomp (and looks beyond CL trophies won only).
To be clear, Modric is fantastic. Word to @Scholesy who predicted this. Prophets get no recognition in their own forum
To be clear, Modric is fantastic. Word to @Scholesy who predicted this. Prophets get no recognition in their own forum
Deschamps was better in that role than Makélélé. I would also argue that during the same period of time the likes of Albelda, Senna, Gilberto Silva were as good as defensive anchors.
It's not entirely unreasonable to say that Makélélé enjoyed a bit of overrating precisely because he excelled in a role that was highlighted at the time as if it were a brand new idea (it wasn't, not at all).
That doesn't mean we should dismiss his qualities. He was a first rate, top notch, world class (whatever) player in his prime. But comparing him to Xavi is ridiculous. It would be much more relevant to compare him to someone like - say - Zito.
And many would say that Makélélé was a (much) more limited passer than Zito (just to mention one aspect).
That doesn't mean we should dismiss his qualities. He was a first rate, top notch, world class (whatever) player in his prime. But comparing him to Xavi is ridiculous. It would be much more relevant to compare him to someone like - say - Zito.
And many would say that Makélélé was a (much) more limited passer than Zito (just to mention one aspect).
I think that it was only highlighted in the UK because that role was a basic pretty much everywhere else and it was played by big name players. While it's true that Makélélé was a very good player, I have always been surprised by the hype he created in the PL. In a way he exemplifies the cultural gap between the PL and the rest of Europe at the time.
Yes, that is not an entirely unreasonable take.
I remember very well how he was portrayed when he came to England - as if the idea of a "pure" holder was invented by Mourinho and Makélélé was created in a lab for that purpose.
Makelele is the best DM in their history. Kante has always been a B2B at Chelsea.
He’s still a defensive-focused midfielder. He just plays it in a different way. Makelele anchored (although not for his whole career) and Kanté got up and down more. But Kanté is still ultimately a defensive midfielder, all of his best traits are entirely defensive, you’re hardly throwing him in the number 10, are you?
Anyway the point I was making was if I was making an all-time Chelsea or France XI, I’d rather have Kanté there than Makelele in both. Kanté could play with Vieira or Tigana in the engine room for France for example without needing Makelele. If you had a midfield 3 with Zidane and Platini as attacking mids then maybe you’d pick Makelele there (although Deschamps would also do a similar job).
Beckenbauer would be rated lower because he’s just a defender, like Maldini or Baresi? You can’t have seen much of Beckenbauer to think that…his role as a defender was arbitrary, his influence wasn’t limited
Mm, as a player type Redondo was more comparable to Modric than Makelele honestly. A good current comp would be Frenkie De Jong
And Beckenbauer had more in common with Pirlo or Xavi than most CBs
And Beckenbauer had more in common with Pirlo or Xavi than most CBs
I wouldn’t tell anyone who rates Xavi over Modric that they are wrong, but the same applies for putting Modric above Xavi tbh.
Because the arguments are absolutely there for picking one over the other.
What Xavi has going for him is his peak between 2008-2012 (could put 2013 but I think that is when he started slowing down). And a lot of comments on how he was the system.
Without taking anything away from Xavi, I do think he benefitted greatly from playing for Pep. Yes he was fantastic and made it work for both Barca and Spain, but I really think there is also this added factor of Pep building one of the greatest teams of all time, playing football unlike anything before.
And with this in mind, Modric never really had the benefit of playing under a manager like Pep. Joined a third year Mourinho Madrid, followed by two years of Ancelotti, couple months of Benitez, 5y Zidane with Lopetegui/Solari in there as well. None of them managers like Guardiola who impose their will on the opponent. Not to say it was all terrible, but just trying to put in context when people say; “he never dominated games like Xavi!”.
Which I’d argue just isn’t really true but also point to the context of the managers and teams they played for.
Xavi and Iniesta are certainly better than Modric at certain aspects of the game. Iniesta dribbling in the final third especially, so easy on the eye. Or Xavi temporising the game unlike any other. But overall I do think Modric has the same qualities, some of which not to the same standard, but also more to his arsenal and being better at certain kther aspects.
Give me Xavi Hernandez any day of the week
Didi, Charlton, Matthaus, Zidane, Xavi
That's the top 5. Modric is in the tier below that
That's the top 5. Modric is in the tier below that
Complete tangent but for me Beckenbauer is unique.
In a way yes. He was a good enough defender he effectively allowed his teams to play an extra midfielder without losing anything defensively AND without losing him pulling the strings and dominating games
Honestly, the best way to describe would be that he was the best midfielder in football history who happened to spend most of his career as a CB because he could
Exactly. The first time I saw full games of him I was perpexled. He had the technique and elegance of the best midfielders and was also an actual defender.
I can honestly see modric playing at champions league level to at least 40 years old, it may not be as a regular at madrid but he will still be a regular at another big club
That’s just my point … Makelele was extremely influential at Real (often the only player operating in midfield as the rest of the squad was way ahead of him) and part of a solid midfield at France/Chelsea.
All of the above mentioned players were part of balanced midfields with players like Conte, Davids, Viera, Edmilson, etc. to share the midfield burden with them. They’re all great players but what Makelele did at Real for 3 years as a DM is equivalent to what 2009-12 Xavi did for Barca as a CM in terms of influence.
Makelele was literally the only Midfielder for 3 years as other Madrid ‘midfielders’ were natural advanced attackers.
It would be like having a front 5 of Casemiro - Rashford, Sancho, Antony - Ronaldo, Martial. That is how unbalanced Madrid were.
He literally wasn’t.
Real Madrid had during that time the likes of Guti, Flavio Conceicao, Cambiaso, even Helguera played in midfield plenty of times alongside Makelele.
Only if we pretend that McManaman, Guti, Flavio Conceicao or Cambiasso didn't exist. In that case he was indeed literally the only midfielder. Also Makélélé's career isn't limited to Real Madrid, he was never better than the players mentioned.
Good post. Although am not sure if Xavi benefiting from the system (or the system from him, a bit like egg or a chicken question this...) should be in any way slight or certain advantage for him when compared to Modric. If the player is THAT good you will find him a central role and play to his strenghts like always. Yes, he was happy that Pep came along, but so was Pep to kick off his career with such a midfielder. Aragones and del Bosque too I guess considering he was central to their trophies as well with one of them coming before Pep arrived.
Don't think we need to ask hypothetical question here because, even if Modric game certainly would have been elevated by playing for a more systematic manager, am fairly sure it would never reach Xavi's peak. Because, well... hard to imagine anyone beating that.
Then again, Modric's strenghts were always a bit different and more individualistic. Also, his mentality which excells in a "back against the wall" situation is quite remarkable (perfect example being Spain - Croatia game in 2012 when he was the best player on the pitch against full Spain's suicide squad). Counting that aspect as well, if I had a weaker team and had to choose between those two it wouldn't be such a straightforward choice which is the biggest compliment I can give to Modric.
Overall, yes it is Xavi. His dominance and way of playing probably won't be matched again. Modric being fairly close or in that group just behind him when you think about best CM's is a mighty fine achievement though. Unbelievable player in his own right.
From a recent interview with Iniesta:
On Modric:
"We are players with different profiles but at the same time similar in terms of position on the field, conception of the game, handling the ball… He is one of the best midfielders there is and will ever be. He is a reference for his team and it is not easy to spend so many years at a club like Madrid making a difference,"
On Madrid's trio:
"That Madrid trident is one of the best that has ever existed. They have won many titles and without a doubt he is one of the best, just like us."
On Modric:
"We are players with different profiles but at the same time similar in terms of position on the field, conception of the game, handling the ball… He is one of the best midfielders there is and will ever be. He is a reference for his team and it is not easy to spend so many years at a club like Madrid making a difference,"
On Madrid's trio:
"That Madrid trident is one of the best that has ever existed. They have won many titles and without a doubt he is one of the best, just like us."
Still not as good as Xavi and Iniesta? Man does everything to an excellent standard, and defensively is excellent too. At 37 he's still everywhere in this QF.
For me, he belongs in that Iniesta-Xavi tier.
Another great tournament, his World Cup Croatian performances are solidifying his legacy as one of the greatest. Whatever about Real Madrid, a nation of 4 million to compete and dominate midfields against the likes of Brazil and England.
Easily the best since Xavi at dictating the pace of the game. He’s 37 so you play at his pace, even if you’re Brazil Liverpool or City or whoever.
Excellent yet again. Pretty much ran the show (although it's pretty much Casemiro on his own in the Brazilian midfield at times)
He's been nothing great today
He’s probably the only 37 year old ever to still walk into any team in the world.
No.
He’s 37. It’s ridiculous that he’s still even playing at this level.
Thats true. Bur we already know that. Goes without saying that he's aged superbly