Wasn't he also being played in a more attacking position in that first season?
So where is Modric rated in best CM’s of all time ?
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I say this because Messi was the greatest player of all time. He was like a cheat code for all his teammates. Just get the ball to Leo.
Modric obviously played with great players but Messi in his prime was ridiculous.
I don't remember him ripping up trees
Modric is still is more influential and important for Croatia than Xavi ever was for Spain, he played a good tournament that world cup and was their best player that tournament.
People can still rate Xavi above him as nothing is definitive but I agree that Modric has been very important for Croatia even today.
Erm, yes it does?!?!
Which is the point. People forget.
Nonsense. Teams only just tried to counterpress after Xavi left the team? It took Spain winning 3 tournaments in a row before other teams thought 'hey, let's try counterpressing!'
What in fact happened is that the players in the Spain team (not just Xavi) aged and the replacements were not as good. A system is only as good as the players implementing it.
neither was Modric. He was better than the trash players around him but not considered one of Europe's best. from 2005-7 Xavi made over 30 appearances for Spain
Are you really pretending that there is no difference between the pressing/counterpressing which is routinely used by most top level sides today and the styles that were employed back in the late noughties?
Remember that when tiki-taka was first introduced, the foremost strategy to counter it was to park the bus and hope for the best. If you're old enough to remember Xavi, then you are also old enough to know that counterpressing was simply not seen as a viable tactic against Barca/Spain- especially given that Barca/Spain were in fact the best pressers themselves.
Tiki-taka was revolutionary and it took time for other teams to figure it out. But when they did, Barca/Spain looked beatable with or without Xavi (like I said, he was still a key cog of the sides that were getting whipped by the Bayern's/Holland's of this world).
I’d put Modric in Tier 3 of all time players: Zidane, Figo, Xavi, Scirea, Makelele, Ramos, etc.
Hard to argue against him being in the Top-15 box to box midfielders of all time, maybe even Top-10.
Hard to argue against him being in the Top-15 box to box midfielders of all time, maybe even Top-10.
You say 'the counterpressing used by most top sides today.' Which top sides? Do Real Madrid, the current champions of Spain and Europe, employ a gegenpressing style? You act like everyone used to do tiki-taka (they didn't because it is very hard technically) and now everyone plays like Luverpool (they don't, it is very taxing).
Then you pointed out that Barca used the be the best pressers themselves. And aging players like Xavi may not have hampered the effectiveness of this?
Then you point to a couple of bad results at the end of Xavi's time with Spain and Barca when he was in his 30s as proof that the system had been 'figured out'. Except for the fact that Barca won the Champions League again after the results you outline and beat Bayern Munich on the way there. That was Xavi's last season there and he wasn't involved much in the CL, but many of the players were the same as in the loss under Tito V. Enrique used possession football but evolved the TT style to gain great success.
Also, the manager who instituted it at Barca is still wildly successful in another league playing not exactly the same style but still a heavily possession based game (and again, not a gegenpressing style). Evolution again.
My basic point is Xavi is, along with Iniesta, the greatest midfielder of this generation and one of the greatest of all time. Your attempt to downgrade him is disingenuous at best.
Well TBF Alonso, Fabregas and Iniesta were all past their best by the time Xavi retired and Spain with Xavi eventually came unstuck in Brazil.
Also Modric was like Kane at Spurs who we all joke about winning trophies, that doesn't mean that like Kane he wasn't world class. Harry Redknapp considered him world class.
Agree about Xavi being top class and bordering world class as soon as he took Guardiola's position. He was more prolific as an assist machine when Guardiola moved him a bit more forward and got Busquets to do some of his defensive duties
Just about fit to lace scholes boots.
Genuine Q, how much Barce did you watch? Because if you didn't watch him regularly you wouldn't know, would you?
Xavi was a good player but he was not seen as world class at any point in time before the Euro in 2008. He had a very good first part of the season in 2005-06 but got injured in the second part which didn't stop his team from winning both the league and CL. Then he went through under par seasons in 2006-07 and 2007-08 and was criticized by part of the media and fans.
Barcelona were about to sell him to Bayern in 2008 but Guardiola stopped the move.
Barcelona were about to sell him to Bayern in 2008 but Guardiola stopped the move.
The year of Brazil 2014, Alonso just won the CL with Real Madrid, featuring 90 mins per game from quarters to the semis. Cesc went on to win a league title with Chelsea the next season where he was outstanding (aged 27). Iniesta just won La Liga best midfielder in 2014 went on to win the CL next season and made 4 X Fifpro world XI during that period until 2017, made Uefa team of the year a further 2X, made CL squad of the season a further 2 X and La Liga team of the season 1 X. They were still pretty high level and should have been fine.
I remember whenever Xavi was out for long periods for Barcelona it was major squabbles as Iniesta couldn't hold it down in his place without big bro holding his hand.
I actually believe the two styles have merged by now. Klopp and Guardiola are often presented as students of two different schools when in fact their teams play very similar in many aspects. Klopp has implemented many elements of the typical positional play of Guardiola and for a long period of time played with a false 9 while Guardiola's teams are much more vertical than they used to be and also have a wider array of stylistic devices, e. g. crosses and long shots (de Bruyne says hello) or now a typical target man up front. They also have a similar taste in terms of midfielders. Sure, Klopp also has his hard working Hendersons but in general, but even at Dortmund, his midfield selections already featured technically elite and pressing resistant midfielders with low centers of gravity (like Gündogan or now Thiago). Even the way they utilize their fullbacks isn't that different anymore with Cancelo and Trent often moving into CM positions. That's a long way from Klopp's early days at Dortmund when people praised his sides for how quickly Dortmund got 11 players behind the ball after turnovers.
So I wouldn't distinguish between these two styles as they are both very close to the idea of "total football". I'd rather see them as one these days and distinguish between total football and the modern interpretation of catenaccio which still lots of managers, usually Italians, deploy, with Conte probably being the most successful one. And then there are managers who are less about tactics in general and rely on individual class but they're becoming less relevant with every season.
So in the end, it's rather about the quality of deployment. And neither Xavi, Iniesta nor Messi had the luck of playing under somebody highly capable after Guardiola left Barca. That all those Barca and Spain teams still played positional play probably had more to do with how the key players had been brought up and that the club to a certain degree dictated the playing style to the managers they signed.
That’s some ridiculous overrating of Makelele, absolutely crazy.
Should never be mentioned in the same sentence with the likes of Xavi and Zidane.
There is literally a position named after him … DMs may not be pretty but they deserve respect and need to be viewed in a different lens … it would be like saying Beckanbauer should not be in the same Tier as Di Stefano and Cruyff.
In what way is there a position named after him? Is he the first ever player to sit in front of the defence and pass the ball to more gifted players in his team?
I’ve watched him for Vigo, Madrid, Chelsea and France, I’ve watched a lot of Spanish football back in the late 90’d early 00’s.
Don’t get me wrong he was a top player, and you being a Real Madrid supporter obviously have fond memories, that’s fine.
However, just because that side lost it balance when be left doesn’t mean he was a Zidane or a Xavi calibre of a footballer, it’s ridiculous.
If Real Madrid replaced him with, say, a Gilberto Silva, who although wasn’t quite as good as Makelele but was a very capable and quite underrated player in his own right (WC winner, PL winner) instead of relying on a very young Cambiaso let alone fecking Gravesen that transition wouldn’t have been as awful as its been.
Xavi was still a starter in 2014 though and I'm not sure what happened, if they simply got overrun as their old legs were going. And yes Iniesta and Cesc had a bit left but Cesc legs were declining quickly and he wasn't as good at Chelsea as he was at Arsenal because of this.
I think Spain missed a trick by not starting Cazorla after Xavi left though. Move Iniesta to the right wing with Santi, Fabregas and Busquets in the middle and having them all and David Silva on the park at the same time would of sublime. Even having Cesc as false 9 to get Santi on the pitch would be tastey
Cazorla was an Arsenal player though, that would not have been a successful experiment on this basis alone.
Thiago where?
Something that's always missed is Xavi was incredible the last half of the 2007/08 season for Barcelona. At the time Barca were a mess under Rijkaard and with all the big name stars in Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Henry, it was Xavi that was pretty much carrying them with a young Messi pulling his weight too.
As you mentioned, Xavi carried that on in Euro 2008 where he was exceptional. It really just seemed like he was a relative late bloomer but also finally coming into his own after his injuries earlier in his career.
Personally I still opt for Xavi. He controlled games in a way I've never seen any single player do. His short passing and ability to find space in midfield was unbelievable. You saw opposing midfielders get visibly frustrated by how good he was when they tried to get near him.
Modric is one of the greats and his longevity only makes his argument stronger.
Still Xavi for me, but Modric is pushing it very very close. Guy is incredible
I rate Cazorla over Thiago due to his passing range and creativity while also being incredibly press resistant. Not just because he's an Arsenal player either, but he's very underrated. Has a decent argument to be our best player post-Fabregas.
This guy gets it
Barcelona had their worst points tally and league placement in the last 15 years that season. I don't know that I'd call that "carrying."
Not my opinion. Logic.
Fine with me Real. You've probably contradicted yourself enough.
I really didn't but keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy.
The Makelele Role:No there isn't
https://thefootballfaithful.com/mid...lele-so-good-they-named-a-position-after-him/
https://thechelseaspot.com/2020/06/29/claude-makelele-the-man-with-a-position-named-after-him/
https://www.cultkits.com/blogs/news/celta-vigo-and-the-birth-of-the-makelele-role
https://taleoftwohalves.uk/featured/place-history-claude-makelele-makelele-role
https://thefalse9.com/2014/11/football-tactics-beginners-makelele-role.html
https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/article/how-claude-makelele-changed-english-football
https://backofthenet.fandom.com/wiki/The_Claude_Makélélé_role
https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/how-the-makelele-role-redefined-english-football
https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2...-makelele-role-real-madrid-france-chelsea-psg
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...nt-of-the-makelele-role-since-claude-makelele
And in case anyone is interested in semantics, 'role' is a synonym for 'position':
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/position
They're pointing out that "Makelele role" is an entirely english creation and a demonstration of how backwards and antiquated they are when it comes to this sport they invented
This role has existed long before him and he isn't even the best player to perform it. José's 3-men midfield was incredibly successful in England when first introduced and a designated defensive anchor was not something that British football was used to. Yet that cliche was created by people that believe that football didn't exist before 1992. Makélélé, a wonderful player that he was (definitely world-class at his peak), got ridiculously overrated on the back of his transfer to Chelsea, Zidane's "gold paint" comment and the slightly ignorant "so good they named a position after him" cliche, due to how well his story set itself up — an unheralded hero of the star-studded Real Madrid got discarded by greedy president, went to England and conquered all (while Madrid fell apart).
He should be nowhere near the tier that includes the likes of Xavi. He's one of (and certainly not THE) best defensive specialists but he's way below the likes of Xavi, Modrić, Matthäus & Rijkaard as a footballer and in terms of his influence on all aspects of the game.
The "Makelele role", a role the likes of Phil Neville (when in midfield), Emmanuel Petit, and Gilberto Silva were performing before Makelele arrived in England but in different systems that didn't require a full-on sit back and act like a third CB. It wasn't some masterstroke of genius created position. He just did it exceptionally well under an uber defensive-minded tactician in Mourinho, the perfect system to get the best from a full-on defensive midfielder.
Exactly. Just because Chelsea were the first English club to have the epiphany that you are allowed to play more than 2 midfielders, doesn't mean they invented an entirely new position.
Makelele isn't even the best French defensive midfielder to play for Chelsea this century.