So we didn't sign a central midfielder

Sarni said:
So, essentially it is possible to question Fergie when he picks up a cheaper option from an average side, because he's not really that perfect with these choices, right?

I still reckon his record with midfielders is significantly worse than defenders and forwards.
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There's a risk with any signing, obviously. Like, duh.

His record from midtable teams is very, very good. Which is what my initial point was about.

Point is, he's only paid sums for 2 CMs that can potentially be considered to be "not United quality" And I wonder how much influence CQ had in those two signings.

Nah, can't blame CQ. He's a tactical mastermind and SAF is nothing without him as his no.2....
 
Rowem said:
Have we made any bad signings of midfielders in that time?

Hargreaves was unlucky with injuries, Anderson also. Both are undoubtedly talented players.

No signings in the last seven years suggest that SAF can't pick a good midfielder, which is what was being discussed.
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Hargreaves and Anderson were both bad signings no matter what way you look at it. They both failed, and cost a pretty penny too.

He has definitely a worse record with midfielders than other areas. Most of the strikers you mentioned cost feck all money to buy, apart from Berbatov who certainly had a more successful tenure here than Hargreaves and Anderson did/have.

I'm not arguing that there weren't flops bought in other areas of the pitch too but the ratio of successes to flops in wingers, strikers and defenders is far better than midfield.
 
Cina said:
Hargreaves and Anderson were both bad signings no matter what way you look at it. They both failed, and cost a pretty penny too.

He has definitely a worse record with midfielders than other areas. Most of the strikers you mentioned cost feck all money to buy, apart from Berbatov who certainly had a more successful tenure here than Hargreaves and Anderson did/have.

I'm not arguing that there weren't flops bought in other areas of the pitch too but the ratio of successes to flops in wingers, strikers and defenders is far better than midfield.
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They're both very good footballers though, aren't they?

My point here is solely about whether or not SAF will sign a CM that is seen "United quality" or not. Veron and Anderson were both certainly United quality.

There are far too many other variables when it comes to whether or not a transfer will be a success, and many of those variables are out of a manager's hands.

His record with midfielders is as good as his record with goalkeepers, strikers and wingers. His record with defenders is unbelievably good though and trumps the lot.
 
Rowem said:
They're both very good footballers though, aren't they?

My point here is solely about whether or not SAF will sign a CM that is seen "United quality" or not. Veron and Anderson were both certainly United quality.

There are far too many other variables when it comes to whether or not a transfer will be a success, and many of those variables are out of a manager's hands.

His record with midfielders is as good as his record with goalkeepers, strikers and wingers. His record with defenders is unbelievably good though and trumps the lot.
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Anderson is far from a very good footballer and I'd argue that Hargreaves wasn't all that either.
 
Sarni said:
Anderson is far from a very good footballer and I'd argue that Hargreaves wasn't all that either.
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Man. It would have saved me time if you had let me know earlier that you're a complete and utter fecking idiot.

edit: Ah, the tagline. I should pay more attention.
 
Anderson is a "jury is still out" case. The jury is starting to come around to the idea that he should be hanged, though. Hargreaves, for me, is very different. If he hadn't been such a bloody crock he would have been a very useful player for us to this very day. One may ask, be it said, whether Fergie shouldn't have smelled the rat - he was known as an injury prone player well before we bought him.
 
Rowem said:
Man. It would have saved me time if you had let me know earlier that you're a complete and utter fecking idiot.

edit: Ah, the tagline. I should pay more attention.
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That's very classy.

You really reckon Anderson is a very good footballer? Someone who could possibly start at another top club? Same goes for Hargreaves really, to a lesser extent. He was decent here but his best performances were at right back and right side of midfield. There's a reason why Bayern let him go and £17m wasn't the only part of that.

But surely you can stick to insults because I don't think either of them was or is that good. Meanwhile you used Forlan as an example of poor striker deal - same Forlan who reached level that those two couldn't even see after he left, both for Uruguay and Villarreal/Atletico. We either judge them on the basis of their performances for United or we don't, and if we do then Anderson isn't very good at all.
 
Anderson and Hargreaves were both obviously capable players.

You can make an argument with Hargreaves that we should have held back due to his injury record. He was evidently a capable player in his position though or due to his utility to the squad.

Anderson was also obviously talented and one of the biggest young talents in the world when signed. It's not worked out as planned due to his injuries and his lack of progress,

Personally I'd happy with United signing these types of players in the future the same way I'd be happy with United going for another Seba Veron. Sometimes signings don't work out but suggesting purchasing these players means Fergie cannot pick a midfielder is daft.

Liam Miller, and DxD would be fair enough examples but there very much in the minority of his 25 years in the job. It would be like saying he cannot pick a defender due to signing Donaghy and Prunier(on loan) or he cannot sign good wingers because of Milne or Bebe.
 
Arteta would have been a decent shout before he went to Arsenal.

Looking around the league, you can't really say there's an obvious performer that's been doing the business for > 2 seasons at a lower club.
 
Anderson looked like a huge talent before he came, that's for sure. I was very excited about that transfer but he turned out pretty average here. As I said, he wouldn't be starting at another top club same way he isn't starting here.

Hargreaves was all right, that's all. He was never really a top midfielder, which is why just a year before we got interested after his performances at the World Cup he was rumoured to be signing for Middlesbrough. He wasn't that bad but he wasn't great either - fine or decent was his level.
 
Beachryan said:
Arteta would have been a decent shout before he went to Arsenal.

Looking around the league, you can't really say there's an obvious performer that's been doing the business for > 2 seasons at a lower club.
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If we had signed Arteta people would have moaned, quite rightly.

It will be the same if we sign Cabaye. Arteta is no better than what we have and Cabaye is better than Cleverley but not by a huge margin.

IF that's the market we are looking in no wonder he has stuck looking to develop Anderson and Cleverley with Carrick being very impressive.

Pretty sure we will be looking for a better player than Arteta this summer.
 
Bottom of the page repost

ForeverUnited19 said:
Would i be right in saying that Sir Alex either looks for a British midfielder or a player with qualities associated with playing in the premier league?

I reckon now it's a case of him simply doing his homework. Everyone else is all too happy to pick up a form midfielder for around 20m and recycle if it doesn't work out. There are plenty cases of this happening with any team who now have a midfield we envy.

People are rightly pointing out the amount of midfielders who have moved around. These players are usually picked up immediately after one season of the level we would expect of our players. I'm saying if Sir Alex prefers to give that player another season to see if he can replicate it, it is usually a season too long and we miss out. Kagawa is an example of giving it a year and Carrick could have been picked up from West Ham. Of course, it doesn't explain everything.
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Sarni said:
Anderson looked like a huge talent before he came, that's for sure. I was very excited about that transfer but he turned out pretty average here. As I said, he wouldn't be starting at another top club same way he isn't starting here.

Hargreaves was all right, that's all. He was never really a top midfielder, which is why just a year before we got interested after his performances at the World Cup he was rumoured to be signing for Middlesbrough. He wasn't that bad but he wasn't great either - fine or decent was his level.
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Exactly. If another Anderson type prospect was available I would want us to sign him this summer. If it does not work out I would not class that as Fergie not being able to pick a midfielder. Unless the argument is that he cannot develop a midfielder which I don't think is particularly strong. He's developed Scholes, Fletcher, Cleverley and moulded a young Ince and Keane so his record is pretty good with developing central players.

Hargreaves was not an outstanding midfielder but he was a good player and his record with Bayern was good and he was good enough for United. I think he proved this for United(when fit). His problems were with his injuries and perhaps that should have been identified.

I don't see this as bad signings or as examples of Fergie's poor relative track record with central midfielders. I also think Veron was an excellent player that did not work out. I would want us in for a modern day Seba Veron if the need or opportunity arose.

Fergie's poor midfield signings are DxD, Miller and Kleberson and you can find plenty of parallels with keepers, defenders, wingers and strikers. Ten years back it was Fergie's record with developing and purchasing Keepers and defenders which got this type of scrutiny after the post Schmeichel signings and the sale of Jaap. Now people in this thread think Fergie's record with defenders is exceptional.

The reason why midfielders are being highlighted now is that after years of Robson, Whiteside, Ince, Keane, Scholes, Veron, Butt, Carrick and Fletcher the standard has not been as high for the last 5 years after a couple of decades of a conveyor belt of top players. The recent past always colours people's memories and that will never change.
 
Rowem said:
Man. It would have saved me time if you had let me know earlier that you're a complete and utter fecking idiot.

edit: Ah, the tagline. I should pay more attention.
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Any time anyone has persisted with a different opinion to you, you've resorted to insulting them. If you can't have a reasoned debate then you may as well feck off because you'll end up being banned anyway.

Rowem said:
They're both very good footballers though, aren't they?

My point here is solely about whether or not SAF will sign a CM that is seen "United quality" or not. Veron and Anderson were both certainly United quality.

There are far too many other variables when it comes to whether or not a transfer will be a success, and many of those variables are out of a manager's hands.

His record with midfielders is as good as his record with goalkeepers, strikers and wingers. His record with defenders is unbelievably good though and trumps the lot.
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Hargreaves was never that good, he was largely poor for us in midfield and his best performances actually came from the wing. Whatever happened with Anderson, whether it was the club using him wrong or him just being a lazy dick, it was a failure and he isn't a particularly good footballer now, certainly not close to the potential he showed early on.

Eek, hope you're not going to call me an idiot now too for diagreeing with you!
 
Cina said:
Any time anyone has persisted with a different opinion to you, you've resorted to insulting them. If you can't have a reasoned debate then you may as well feck off because you'll end up being banned anyway.



Hargreaves was never that good, he was largely poor for us in midfield and his best performances actually came from the wing. Whatever happened with Anderson, whether it was the club using him wrong or him just being a lazy dick, it was a failure and he isn't a particularly good footballer now, certainly not close to the potential he showed early on.

Eek, hope you're not going to call me an idiot now too for diagreeing with you!
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Hargreaves wasn't poor for us in midfield. He struggled in a 2 man midfield and excelled in a 3 man midfield, more towards the business end of the season. He wasn't excellent, but poor is harsh for a new signing.

I'd buy a 25 year and injury free Hargreaves if he was available.
 
adexkola said:
Hargreaves wasn't poor for us in midfield. He struggled in a 2 man midfield and excelled in a 3 man midfield, more towards the business end of the season. He wasn't excellent, but poor is harsh for a new signing.

I'd buy a 25 year and injury free Hargreaves if he was available.
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Exactly. And he was on his first season when struggle to make impact as CM in here. You don't make 145 appearance for Bayern, and featured in their CL Final as one of their CM if he wasn't any good.
 
Hargreaves wasn't great for us in midfield but did a decent job and did perform well on the right. We probably never got to see the best of him, between getting used to the english game and the fact he had injury problems already in his first year with us. He'd have been very useful to us in the following seasons, if fit.
 
An agile defensive mid in the mould of a Gundogan and a Scholes replacement would transform this side in addition to a quality winger aside from Zaha.
 
Gundogan makes less tackles than Nuri Sahin for christ's sake, he's no defensive midfielder.
 
We've been linked with Kondogbia in the French and Spanish media. How many have seen him play?
 
KM said:
We've been linked with Kondogbia in the French and Spanish media. How many have seen him play?
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I haven't but my Barca supporting friend says he's pretty good. Barca seem to want him too.
 
Cina said:
I'm sure he was good for Bayern, but he wasn't good for us. What more is there to it?
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Sorry how many medals did we win when he was here? Got watch his matches for us he was a terrific midfielder. It was a shame he was injured so often.
 
Strootman would be my main choice. Captain of PSV at 23, regular for Holland, and being likened to Xabi Alonso and Keano. I think he's more like Carrick at Spurs.
 
Hargreaves was never terrific, to be fair. Anderson hit higher heights than Hargreaves did in his first season, although Hargreaves did put in some decent defensive shifts against the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool (aside from his run on the right at the back end of the season).

We need to aim higher than someone like that otherwise we're just going to further deepen the problem of who to pick next to Carrick. If we're to sign a midfielder, it should be someone that we're pretty confident is better than Cleverley, Giggs and Anderson. It may well be a difficult task but we need to get this one right instead of adding to an already large group of midfielders that currently aren't quite doing the job (bit harsh on Cleverley to say it like that but he's got a way to go yet).
 
Mainoldo said:
Sorry how many medals did we win when he was here? Got watch his matches for us he was a terrific midfielder. It was a shame he was injured so often.
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Yeah, Hargreaves was the reason we won those trophies, not Ronaldo, Rio, VDS, Vidic, Rooney.

Hargreaves, played 20 games in four years, won us 10+ trophies. That's fecking impressive.
 
Cina said:
Yes, on the bloody wing or at right back!
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Not all. Brown played most games in 2008. Also, he played more central than a Valencia, even when he was on the right, as part of a 4-3-3. If he played on the wing where did Ronaldo play?

KingEric7 said:
Hargreaves was never terrific, to be fair. Anderson hit higher heights than Hargreaves did in his first season, although Hargreaves did put in some decent defensive shifts against the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool (aside from his run on the right at the back end of the season).

We need to aim higher than someone like that otherwise we're just going to further deepen the problem of who to pick next to Carrick. If we're to sign a midfielder, it should be someone that we're pretty confident is better than Cleverley, Giggs and Anderson. It may well be a difficult task but we need to get this one right instead of adding to an already large group of midfielders that currently aren't quite doing the job (bit harsh on Cleverley to say it like that but he's got a way to go yet).
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No one is saying Hargreaves was terrific. You'd think people would give him some slack, seeing it was his first season with us.

Well apparently there aren't any midfielders out there that are much better than what we got, according to many people in this thread.

Cina said:
Yeah, Hargreaves was the reason we won those trophies, not Ronaldo, Rio, VDS, Vidic, Rooney.

Hargreaves, played 20 games in four years, won us 10+ trophies. That's fecking impressive.
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Heh. Not agreeing with Mainoldo, but if I had a dime for every time someone made the same argument about Carrick...
 
Isotope said:
Strootman would be my main choice. Captain of PSV at 23, regular for Holland, and being likened to Xabi Alonso and Keano. I think he's more like Carrick at Spurs.
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You watched him? Haven't seen enough of him to make a clear judgement. Still would prefer a more talented player like Eriksen.
 
Cina said:
Yeah, Hargreaves was the reason we won those trophies, not Ronaldo, Rio, VDS, Vidic, Rooney.

Hargreaves, played 20 games in four years, won us 10+ trophies. That's fecking impressive.
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But yet. Every season we have threads like this? Can't remember them when he was around.. Midfield most not have been that bad. His career wasn't long here but no one can say it didn't look promising.
 
Mainoldo said:
You watched him? Haven't seen enough of him to make a clear judgement. Still would prefer a more talented player like Eriksen.
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For Holland, yes.

Here's a clip that got me hooked, first time:

 
Mainoldo said:
But yet. Every season we have threads like this? Can't remember them when he was around.. Midfield most not have been that bad. His career wasn't long here but no one can say it didn't look promising.
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I've no idea what you're actually trying to argue from reading that.
 
Mainoldo said:
You watched him? Haven't seen enough of him to make a clear judgement. Still would prefer a more talented player like Eriksen.
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If you haven't seen him, how can you say that Eriksen is more talented? Nevermind that Eriksen isn't what we're looking for at all, we need someone to play in the two in 4231 and he's not the man to do the job.
 
Mainoldo said:
Sorry how many medals did we win when he was here? Got watch his matches for us he was a terrific midfielder. It was a shame he was injured so often.
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You can't judge a player by the amount of medals he's won at the club. For example Valencia and Young will claim PL winners medals this season while their contribution has been close to nothing in the league compared to what you'd normally expect from wingers. Plenty of underwhelming players have won trophies with their teams because other players made up for their lack of skills - not saying it's the case with Hargreaves but I think he wasn't really that instrumental in our double that season. He played on the right in the final I think and while he was very good in the league, we had better players who deserve to be mentioned before him.
 
adexkola said:
Not all. Brown played most games in 2008. Also, he played more central than a Valencia, even when he was on the right, as part of a 4-3-3. If he played on the wing where did Ronaldo play?
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We didn't use 4-3-3 that much. He played purely right wing in the final, for example.

Most of his good games were on the right, not the middle.

I'm not arguing that he could've been a good player for us, but this whole debate was around whether we've bought a successful midfielder since Carrick, and we haven't, Hargreaves was a failed purchase, nobody can argue that.
 
Mainoldo said:
Sorry how many medals did we win when he was here? Got watch his matches for us he was a terrific midfielder. It was a shame he was injured so often.
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van Nistelrooy won one Premier League medal, one FA Cup winners medal and one League Cup winners medal during five seasons with us.

I guess he was fairly average.
 
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