So we didn't sign a central midfielder
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
Every game I worry Carrick sustains an injury. No disservice to Cleverley but Carrick is our midfield at this point. It's that bad folks.
Oh and excellent post by Sphaero
One thing I'll add to Sphaero's post is that classic wingers aren't really becoming a rare breed like he writes, just that they are all used in inverted positions. That doesn't mean they can't revert back to their standard position.
The one position where quality is really rarefied for me is central midfield. How many top class centre-mid prospects out there right now ? Next to none. Inter bought Kovacic who seems to be doing well, that's about all I can think of right now.
Oh yeah and that Pogba bloke at Juventus. #ahem
The one position where quality is really rarefied for me is central midfield. How many top class centre-mid prospects out there right now ? Next to none. Inter bought Kovacic who seems to be doing well, that's about all I can think of right now.
Oh yeah and that Pogba bloke at Juventus. #ahem
Great post Sphaero.
The thing is Fergie has always preferred the style of counter attacking with width and I think its far more likely he'll attempt to perfect that way of playing than it is him changing his philosophy.
Carrick is a fantastic player. His positioning, anticipation and reading of the game added to his passing range and decision making has made him into one of the top midfielders in England and maybe even in Europe. However, for our style, where the two midfielders are asked to do so much, sometimes his lack of mobility (and lack of partner who can help with this) reduces his effect on games like tonight or against Barca. I.e. very high quality midfield opponents who's short intricate passing and movement can take him out the game in one quick spell of play. I think his attributes are definitely more suited to a more controlled possession based side. Maybe bringing in the right partner who complements him can help him be as effective in the big games as his most of the time in others. Getting players like Kagawa and Cleverley closer to him would also help.
The thing is Fergie has always preferred the style of counter attacking with width and I think its far more likely he'll attempt to perfect that way of playing than it is him changing his philosophy.
Carrick is a fantastic player. His positioning, anticipation and reading of the game added to his passing range and decision making has made him into one of the top midfielders in England and maybe even in Europe. However, for our style, where the two midfielders are asked to do so much, sometimes his lack of mobility (and lack of partner who can help with this) reduces his effect on games like tonight or against Barca. I.e. very high quality midfield opponents who's short intricate passing and movement can take him out the game in one quick spell of play. I think his attributes are definitely more suited to a more controlled possession based side. Maybe bringing in the right partner who complements him can help him be as effective in the big games as his most of the time in others. Getting players like Kagawa and Cleverley closer to him would also help.
Kagawa is in my eyes not suited for such a deep role, at least in a two man midfield (three man might be a different story). He was no option there for Dortmund because of his lack in the physical department and when it comes to tackling. He is a strong pressing player, but this is not of much use in United system, because of the lack of collective pressing. He would probably struggle really hard there in the PL and is overall a man for the final third.
I don´t see an option to really strengthen the CM without transfers. United needs to become less dependent on Carrick. A potential injury would be fatal in the current situation.
Right skeppy but when was the last time we played Kagawa Cleverley and Carrick in the same game?
And Sphaero, your views are refreshing. It seems you've seen a lot of Kagawa. we really aren't making the most of his qualities. The key question is are we going to allow him to play in his favored position more often? I'm quite skeptical considering what we've been doing recently.
And Sphaero, your views are refreshing. It seems you've seen a lot of Kagawa. we really aren't making the most of his qualities. The key question is are we going to allow him to play in his favored position more often? I'm quite skeptical considering what we've been doing recently.
Well, seeing him in every game since he arrived in Germany does help, yeah
. I have to admit, that the latest developments regarding Kagawa and his lack of game time worry me a bit. I do believe, that he can adapt to his role on the left flank, but he needs to play for that.
I have to say, that I was always a little bit sceptical about Kagawa´s move to United. I fear, that he is an experiment by SAF, because he was such a good deal for them (16-20 Mil € are really not a whole lot for the quality he can potentially bring to the team). I also think, that he was planned to play behind Rooney before the RvP deal was fix.
I really wish, that he can become an integral part of the team, because although it pained me to see him leave Dortmund, he is a classy role model athlete, who deserves it.
Well, seeing him in every game since he arrived in Germany does help, yeah
I have to admit, that the latest developments regarding Kagawa and his lack of game time worry me a bit. I do believe, that he can adapt to his role on the left flank, but he needs to play for that.
I have to say, that I was always a little bit sceptical about Kagawa´s move to United. I fear, that he is an experiment by SAF, because he was such a good deal for them (16-20 Mil € are really not a whole lot for the quality he can potentially bring to the team). I also think, that he was planned to play behind Rooney before the RvP deal was fix.
I really wish, that he can become an integral part of the team, because although it pained me to see him leave Dortmund, he is a classy role model athlete, who deserves it.
I still think he'll come good, but I just think he's the type of player Sir Alex doesn't know how to manage. Sir Alex knows everything that's needed for a 4-4-2 but when it comes to players like Kagawa, and probably Silva, Ozil, Mata and similar players, he doesn't make full use of them. His style doesn't exactly suit our play all that well, at least under Sir Alex. We've always been heavily reliant on wingers, playing on the counter and with pace and width, but Kagawa is better with high pressing teams like Dortmund, that don't go to cross it every time they attack.
That's probably part of the reason why even though I'd love us to sign a player like Gotze or Isco, I don't think they'd do all that well here.
What a difference a player like Mata would do for us. We need midfielders. How often does it have to be proven before its rectified?
Agree with everything in Sphaero's post.
Under Ferguson, however, I don't see us moving away from the classic use of wingers on the pitch. He'll stick to what he knows.
Unless he decides to bring in a new assistant manager with fresh ideas he trusts, again I don't see this happening.
But it's obvious to everyone and their pet goldfish we do not have a top quality midfield.
Under Ferguson, however, I don't see us moving away from the classic use of wingers on the pitch. He'll stick to what he knows.
Unless he decides to bring in a new assistant manager with fresh ideas he trusts, again I don't see this happening.
But it's obvious to everyone and their pet goldfish we do not have a top quality midfield.
Fergie only knows 442 and like his experiment to convert Anderson into a more rounded midfielder capable of playing in a midfield two. Fergie will do the same with Kagawa and try to convert him into a winger / wide player.
God help us.
Well, seeing him in every game since he arrived in Germany does help, yeah
I have to admit, that the latest developments regarding Kagawa and his lack of game time worry me a bit. I do believe, that he can adapt to his role on the left flank, but he needs to play for that.
I have to say, that I was always a little bit sceptical about Kagawa´s move to United. I fear, that he is an experiment by SAF, because he was such a good deal for them (16-20 Mil € are really not a whole lot for the quality he can potentially bring to the team). I also think, that he was planned to play behind Rooney before the RvP deal was fix.
I really wish, that he can become an integral part of the team, because although it pained me to see him leave Dortmund, he is a classy role model athlete, who deserves it.
Same here pal. It grates me how he's being used. Kagawa is a player if used right, can really improve a team. What he's done for Dortmund in such a short time is magnificent.
I feel so dumb for telling my mates how great this chap is, only for him to be rarely played and then all I hear is "ahhhhh come off it mate, he's too small. Always gettin' bumped off the ball" or "if he's so great, why isn't Fergie usin him eh?"
I think Fergie is less willing to change tact. With Phelan as no.2 that seems to be the case although i concede, i know little of what he does for the team. I just don't see anyone challenging what's going on right now. Who knows, perhaps none of our staff besides SAF have a better solution.
If we trying to convert Kagawa, then we've ultimately failed. That's honestly one of the worst things we could do. However, I don't really us trying to do this. I see it more of a problem of SAF figuring out where to play Kagawa with Rooney and RvP being our main attackers.
You can play rvp kagawa Rooney in the same team if you accept we wont play 442. Fergie is finding this hard because he is still enamoured with 442.
What are the reasons usually given for not buying a midfielder, and how applicable are they now?
1) "We dont need one. We have plenty of good options there already." You could make this case as convincingly this summer as any other in recent times, given our performance in the league this season. Assuming we go on to win it, we must have a brilliant midfield already.
2) "There is no value in the market." Is this summer going to be some kind of a sale bonanza on outstanding midfielders? I doubt it. If there was no value before then why would that have changed?
3) "There are no Keane or Robson types out there." No change there.
4) "Fletcher is coming back. He will be like a new signing." I can hardly wait.
Im sure there are more.
The long and short of it: dont get your hopes up.
1) "We dont need one. We have plenty of good options there already." You could make this case as convincingly this summer as any other in recent times, given our performance in the league this season. Assuming we go on to win it, we must have a brilliant midfield already.
2) "There is no value in the market." Is this summer going to be some kind of a sale bonanza on outstanding midfielders? I doubt it. If there was no value before then why would that have changed?
3) "There are no Keane or Robson types out there." No change there.
4) "Fletcher is coming back. He will be like a new signing." I can hardly wait.
Im sure there are more.
The long and short of it: dont get your hopes up.
It's more that one or two might retire, and Anderson could leave seeking more minutes to get a place in the Brazil squad. Couple that with waiting to see how Fletcher gets on when preseason comes around and it should force our hand.
One might retire. He did already, last time it didnt merit a signing, so I cant see why it would be different this time.
And if Anderson leaves, we still have Powell coming through who wasnt there before. And Jones.
So no, I dont think our hand will be forced.
And if Anderson leaves, we still have Powell coming through who wasnt there before. And Jones.
So no, I dont think our hand will be forced.
Midfielders don't win matches is wingers and strikers and defenders.
You could see yesterday how annoying it is. It's like we have Carrick and then all sorts of partners for different assignments - The physical one, the one for holding the ball, the one for trying to cut through the defence with crazy passes... Rather than have a second midfielder who has the lots, or at least most of the abilities.
We go to Upton Park, Fergie wants a more physical midfield, so he opts for Jones - which could give you that, but won't give you much on the ball. Every midfield we choose is a compromise. It's baffling.
We go to Upton Park, Fergie wants a more physical midfield, so he opts for Jones - which could give you that, but won't give you much on the ball. Every midfield we choose is a compromise. It's baffling.
If we end up playing Rooney in midfield for the majority of the last few games then I guarantee we'll be buying a midfielder this summer. Rooney-Jones in midfield is just like Giggs-O'Shea in 05/06. They'll get moved back to their original positions and everyone will benefit from it. Another Carrick type signing which doesn't get the muppet juices flowing but gives us a solid base to build on would be lovely.
At this stage, any midfield signing would get the muppet juices flowing.
Really? So if we bought Morgan Schneiderlin from Southampton, or Mo Diame from West Ham, is that really going to get the juices flowing? We'll get 200 caftards complaining that he's not world class and that they are not on the level we require, which is to have as good a midfield as Barca, or Bayern. Patently bollocks to my mind, but I'd put money on it happening.
There will be no such thing when we eventually sign a CM
I'd be happy if we went for Cabaye, not every muppets preferred choice but he is a solid player who doesn't mind getting stuck in.
I don't think any genuinely class midfielders will be available in the Summer anyway, lots of them have already moved to big clubs. Fergie clearly won't sign someone from the lower tier of transfer targets because if he were to do so, he'd have done it long time ago.
We always say that every year and every year we see quality midfielders being signed for not outrageous fees
Dembele, Vidal, Gundogan and Veratti have all moved for reasonable fees in the last 2 years and have been very successful for their new clubs. Gundogan and Veratti came from much smaller sides (in Veratti's case it was a Serie B club) so neither of them was really an easy pick but Dembele and Vidal were both very well know before moving, having played for Fulham and Leverkusen respectively in Europe so it wasn't really that difficult to notice them.
It still seems to me that all the midfield top talent in the world is stuck at just a few teams - Bayern (Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Martinez), Juventus (Marchisio, Vidal, Pogba), Barcelona (all of them plus reserves), Real Madrid (Khedira, Alonso, Modric, Ozil) - and it'll be impossible to buy any of them.
Someone like Strootman, Matic and Moutinho is probably the best we could buy right now but knowing us we'll watch as Arsenal buy Strootman for £8m, Inter pick Matic for £12m and Spurs sign Moutinho for £15m and they all turn into huge successes while we're stuck playing Rooney and Jones in the middle against Bayern in CL semi-final and Twig pretends that it's all fine and we need a forward, winger, defender and goalkeeper more than a midfielder.
If there's one thing nobody should question it's SAF's ability to pick a player from a mid table team with the potential to step up a couple levels.
You're right though, the usual suspects will be out declaring that whichever midfielder we buy isn't good enough!
I don't really trust Fergie with midfielders though, he has picked a few up from mid-table and average sides and none of them turned out that good. Some of them weren't even good enough to play football at any level close to ours as it turned out, the likes of Djemba-Djemba, Miller and Kleberson went on to play for a number of poor clubs afterwards. Carrick was a good signing and Keane was a great signing, other than that we haven't really had any good midfield buys in Premier League era. Luckily we've had some excellent homegrown players who made up for that - Scholes, Butt, Fletcher.
Well its a bit of a simplification. He's signed a couple flops in all positions, inevitably, not just CM. His record in CM is decent enough, and there are a ton of factors that need to be considered.
We haven't bought a successful midfielder since Carrick, seven years ago.
(Powell excluded obviously)
Unless we sign a pure left winger, I'm convinced Kagawa will make the left flank play maker role his and become as important to us as Silva is for City.
But to get the best out of him we need to sort out that central midfield. That would give him the platform to operate like Silva does.
But to get the best out of him we need to sort out that central midfield. That would give him the platform to operate like Silva does.
Have we made any bad signings of midfielders in that time?
Hargreaves was unlucky with injuries, Anderson also. Both are undoubtedly talented players.
No signings in the last seven years suggest that SAF can't pick a good midfielder, which is what was being discussed.
Ince, Keane, Carrick.
These are the genuinely successful CM signings of Fergie's tenure. And there were quite a few complete duds like Kléberson, Miller, the Djemba twins or very questionable signings like Verón (and we can add Anderson to the list now).
If you look at the list of successes in, say, CB - the contrast is remarkable. Strikers as well.
How is it decent enough? He's signed one good midfielder in the last decade. He has a great eye for defenders and forwards but he hasn't really been good with midfielder signings.
His record with strikers is just as patchy. Owen, Dong, Diouf, Manucho, Forlan, Smith, Bellion, even Saha if you're including Veron and Anderson.
He's signed less CMs than strikers cos he's had Scholes, Fletcher, Butt and Cleverley come through the ranks.
So, essentially it is possible to question Fergie when he picks up a cheaper option from an average side, because he's not really that perfect with these choices, right?
I still reckon his record with midfielders is significantly worse than defenders and forwards.
Would i be right in saying that Sir Alex either looks for a British midfielder or a player with qualities associated with playing in the premier league?
I reckon now it's a case of him simply doing his homework. Everyone else is all too happy to pick up a form midfielder for around 20m and recycle if it doesn't work out. There are plenty cases of this happening with any team who now have a midfield we envy.
People are rightly pointing out the amount of midfielders who have moved around. These players are usually picked up immediately after one season of the level we would expect of our players. I'm saying if Sir Alex prefers to give that player another season to see if he can replicate it, it is usually a season too long and we miss out. Kagawa is an example of giving it a year and Carrick could have been picked up from West Ham. Of course, it doesn't explain everything.
I reckon now it's a case of him simply doing his homework. Everyone else is all too happy to pick up a form midfielder for around 20m and recycle if it doesn't work out. There are plenty cases of this happening with any team who now have a midfield we envy.
People are rightly pointing out the amount of midfielders who have moved around. These players are usually picked up immediately after one season of the level we would expect of our players. I'm saying if Sir Alex prefers to give that player another season to see if he can replicate it, it is usually a season too long and we miss out. Kagawa is an example of giving it a year and Carrick could have been picked up from West Ham. Of course, it doesn't explain everything.