Smashley Young

TheBest said:
You should watch it from all the angles in my view it was a clear dive. Yesterday I thought he dived but it was a penalty, now it doesn't even seem like a penalty to me, having said all that I don't understand this outrage over here. People are just too obsessed with diving and all.
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Aye just had another look he's definitely gone toward the defender looking for that initial contact which I didn't realise. It's one of those that Ronaldo always did, the defender is guilty there for moving to impede Young but it was basically a set up saying go on foul me. Seen much worse

It's a pen for me as it's the type of foul I do when playing RB and facing a fast winger :lol:
 
apotheosis said:
So i ask you why defenders are not castigated for such blatant cheating and manipulation, deliberately intended to con a ref into giving an unjust decision? It is exactly the same in principle as a striker pretending there was contact, when in fact there was none.

It is exactly the same action done for exactly the same reasons. Both are intended to con the ref into believing their opponent has committed a punishable offence when the opposite is in fact true. So why should diving or over elaboration on the part of the striker, be deemed less palatable than it's defensive opposite?
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Yeah, but that's not the point. He dived, a million bad tackles don't change that. I have said over and over that the reaction to diving is mental, but that doesn't alter the act.
 
Smores said:
Are people actually saying that the defenders left foot didn't move towards and impede Young?
I may need to look at it again as I thought that much was obvious. I thought Young had only thrown his trailing leg towards the defender which is why it looked so unnatural.
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It's undoubtedly been discussed to death but that's not going to stop me pretending as if I have a completely fresh and needed opinion to give...As I see it he treads on Young's right foot, something Young can easily shrug off and remain on his feet if he chooses to. You can see that from the positioning of his body. There's contact but not enough for him to go down naturally. But Young takes that outstretched leg as an opportunity to go down and tries to initiate further contact with his other leg. Clark retracts his leg and Young looks like an idiot, but he gets the penalty anyway.

Young's diving's embarrassing and especially irritating as he otherwise had a good game. It's exactly the same when any United player does it. If it happens once or twice it's easy enough to forgive and move on but when a player starts doing it regularly, it's annoying. And yes, the degrees of cheating and how things affect us differently is another discussion to come from it - as well as the Mata example, there's that thing how we're supposed to froth at the mouth the minute a player gestures for a player to be booked, but putting that in words to a ref without the action remains completely fair game. The reaction to diving may be hypocritical but so what, much of life is, you try to minimise it as much as possible but it comes down to conditioning (which means trying to make it out as a cultural thing is so stupid).

Cheating is something we all dislike, I don't think it matters if it's widespread and I don't think it's wrong to hold the team we support to higher standards. If fans demand fair play from the team they're actually emotionally invested in, then that has to be a start. Players will always try to gain an advantage but there's a subjective line drawn by every individual which we don't like seeing players cross. Fortunately it's easy to have faith in Fergie to get Young to tone it down.
 
Chabon said:
I've been a fan of Young for years, I even remember having a muppet-esque moan about us getting Nani for twice what Young cost back in 2007. So, yeah, I'm quite happy with this signing, but as somebody who has followed the player for quite awhile I feel that as well as insiting on his talent I should warn those who don't know...he's a massive diver, one of the worst in the league.
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From page 1 of this thread :(
 
I find it hilarious that people are defending Young and pretending like he's not known for taking a dive...

he did that more then a few times at Villa, and most of us watching called him on it.

Frankly, i don't know if it's something any club can truly be ashamed off because every team (from the Barca, to the Bolton) will have a forward who looks for contact and goes down at the slightest touch. Sometimes it will look convincing, and at other times we'll all know he's taken a dive. Can any club int he PL honestly say they don't have a player who's prone to taking a dive to gain a freekick / penalty? I certainly haven't seen one.

I blame FIFA for allowing it to be honest...other sports would brand such action as cheating and not let players get away with it, but in football it's become a norm. If the refs don't catch it...it's basically a crafty way to gain your side the advantage. that's how continental players and now many english players look at it.
 
moses said:
Yeah, but that's not the point. He dived, a million bad tackles don't change that. I have said over and over that the reaction to diving is mental, but that doesn't alter the act.
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True but you have missed the point i tried to make, why should we expect honesty from strikers, when in the same situation we don't get it from defenders?

2 wrongs may not make a right, but they still should be treated equally as forms of cheating. But they are not viewed as opposite sides of the same coin. Cheating to win a penalty is somehow worse, than cheating to prevent one!

I find it difficult to see one any differently from the other. So i am all for advocating increased morality, but just not from a singularly offensive perspective.
 
It's more hilarious that people are defending the fact it was actually a foul and definitely a penalty. It was only a more sophisticated version of taking someone's hand, hitting yourself with it, and then saying "Oi, you hit me!"
 
In the end though...yes, Young dived. Yes it was a bad call. We caught a good break...

but then we also were denied a legitamate penalty for the handball in the box, and a possible red card when Shay Given handled outside the box (not to mention the free kick from that position).

So yes... contrary to the tin foil hat wearing nutcases...it does all end up cancelling each other out. We won by 4 goals, so no one can point to one moment which changes the outcome of the game.
 
Mockney said:
It's more hilarious that people are defending the fact it was actually a foul and definitely a penalty. It was only a more sophisticated version of taking someone's hand, hitting yourself with it, and then saying "Oi, you hit me!"
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I seriously think you're being swayed too much by the ridiculous theatrics (in the opposite way from that in which they are meant ot sway you).

Pause the video at the instant Young's right foot first come into contact with the defender's and you have to say that the defender has been a little clumsy, and not quite pulled his foot out of the way in time, and it's going to be a pretty decent penalty shout.
Yes there's a debate about whether a player could have stayed on his feet if he really wanted, but that applies to about 8 out of 10 penalties, as a consequence of how the laws are currently interpreted.

Young clearly loves to go to groud spectacularly as soon as he feels he's been impeded, but the idea that the whole penalty eas entirelyy fabricated is just wrong. Without the dive, the ref would stuill have had a call to make, and the right answer would have been penalty.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I seriously think you're being swayed too much by the ridiculous theatrics (in the opposite way from that in which they are meant ot sway you).

Pause the video at the instant Young's right foot first come into contact with the defender's and you have to say that the defender has been a little clumsy, and not quite pulled his foot out of the way in time, and it's going to be a pretty decent penalty shout.
Yes there's a debate about whether a player could have stayed on his feet if he really wanted, but that applies to about 8 out of 10 penalties, as a consequence of how the laws are currently interpreted.

Young clearly loves to go to groud spectacularly as soon as he feels he's been impeded, but the idea that the whole penalty eas entirelyy fabricated is just wrong. Without the dive, the ref would stuill have had a call to make, and the right answer would have been penalty.
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He went out of his way to run into Clark's feet. Seriously, he didn't even follow the path of the ball. Stop deluding yourself. That was as blatant cheating as you'll ever see on a football pitch.
 
marjen said:
He went out of his way to run into Clark's feet. Seriously, he didn't even follow the path of the ball.
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Sorry, that's just not true. After knocking the ball to his right, his very next step is to push off to the right with his left foot (ie following the ball), and the step after that is the one that is caught by the defender:

 
It was a penalty but Young looked a cnut for the pathetic dive he did. No need for it.

But - if we end up winning number 20 this season, that will be another thing to wind those scouse/city cnuts up with, so it's all good.
 
marjen said:
He went out of his way to run into Clark's feet. Seriously, he didn't even follow the path of the ball. Stop deluding yourself. That was as blatant cheating as you'll ever see on a football pitch.
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Think Messi punching the ball into the back of the net was more blatant, but that's just me.
 
marjen said:
He went out of his way to run into Clark's feet. Seriously, he didn't even follow the path of the ball. Stop deluding yourself. That was as blatant cheating as you'll ever see on a football pitch.
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This.

You can't call Suarez a cheat (which he is)...and then turn around and look for ways to excuse Young's antics.

All you can really do is say, cheating has become a part of forward play. Some players seem more naturally talented at it then others, but lets not mistake ourselves into thinking it's just the 'others' who are doing it.
 
marjen said:
He went out of his way to run into Clark's feet. Seriously, he didn't even follow the path of the ball. Stop deluding yourself. That was as blatant cheating as you'll ever see on a football pitch.
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If it was that blatant why is there still so much debate about it? The truth is it is not clear, without last week's incident to back it up, the evidence against Young based on yesterday's incident alone would be flimsy at best.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Sorry, that's just not true. After knocking the ball to his right, his very next step is to push off to the right with his left foot (ie following the ball), and the step after that is the one that is caught by the defender:

cesc's_mullet said:
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He kicks his left foot into Clark. There's no need for him to do that, he could've simply continued and had a go.

Decided to play for the penalty as soon as he played the ball past him. Cynical.
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Sir A1ex said:
Sorry, that's just not true. After knocking the ball to his right, his very next step is to push off to the right with his left foot (ie following the ball), and the step after that is the one that is caught by the defender:

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Jaysus, it doesn't get any better with repeat viewing.

Look at the way he throws his left leg out sideways as he starts to go down. Blatant attempt to manufacture the "contact" so many people seem to think is the key indicator of whether or not a foul has been committed.

Fwiw, I think the defender was stupid to hang a leg out and there's not many attacking players who wouldn't have been tempted to make something of it but still, it looks very bad on replay.
 
Devilton said:
You can't call Suarez a cheat (which he is)...and then turn around and look for ways to excuse Young's antics.
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I've made it pretty clear that I'm not trying to excuse Young's antics - he dived and he needs to cut that out. But it was a penalty.

A similar but more straight forward to understand comparison is the Reina - Perch incident. Was it a red card? Yes, Reina went and stuck his forehead into Perch's face, and that is a red every time in today's game. Did Perch needlessly throw himself to the ground and role around like a baby? Yes.
 
It's the little hop and legs kicking out and splaying that really gets me...

Young my boy...that was excellent work. Clearly the force is strong with this one...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Jaysus, it doesn't get any better with repeat viewing.

Look at the way he throws his left leg out sideways as he starts to go down. Blatant attempt to manufacture the "contact" so many people seem to think is the key indicator of whether or not a foul has been committed.

Fwiw, I think the defender was stupid to hang a leg out and there's not many attacking players who wouldn't have been tempted to make something of it but still, it looks very bad on replay.
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On that replay, it seems more like Clark tries to pull his foot back. I don't think he even sticks it out initially.
 
The way he plants his right foot into the defender doesn't look natural to me. If he was genuinely trying to push off and change direction he would have planted his foot further to the right.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Jaysus, it doesn't get any better with repeat viewing.

Look at the way he throws his left leg out sideways as he starts to go down. Blatant attempt to manufacture the "contact" so many people seem to think is the key indicator of whether or not a foul has been committed..
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Obviously, the contact on the right leg was so slight he felt he had to make it look better.
 
marjen said:
He kicks his left foot into Clark. There's no need for him to do that.
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Totally agree. There's no question that was a dive.

The pertinent question though is whether his right foot had already been caught (it had) and if so, whether it was caught badly enough to stop him from being able to continue (probably not, but there's no way to say for sure, and as I said a few posts up, this is how about 80% of pebalties are won these days).
 
peterstorey said:
Because it's tarnishing that likely win - it'll be remembered as 'the one Young dived for'.
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4-0.

Who did what now? United won four nil. There are only sad deluded bitter feckers that will remember the negatives. :lol:

In a week or two this will all mean nothing until he does it again. Carroll dived horribly and it is forgotten. Such will happen with Young.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Sorry, that's just not true. After knocking the ball to his right, his very next step is to push off to the right with his left foot (ie following the ball), and the step after that is the one that is caught by the defender:

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His theatrics of course dont help, but Im sorry thats a penalty everyday of the week.

As I have mentioned before if we hadnt been given that and ended up drawing or losing the game, this place would be going nuts for opposite reasons!
 
Brophs said:
The way he plants his right foot into the defender doesn't look natural to me. If he was genuinely trying to push off and change direction he would have planted his foot further to the right.
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This. If he wanted to, he'd got to that ball without getting anywhere near Clark.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I've made it pretty clear that I'm not trying to excuse Young's antics - he dived and he needs to cut that out. But it was a penalty.

A similar but more straight forward to understand comparison is the Reina - Perch incident. Was it a red card? Yes, Reina went and stuck his forehead into Perch's face, and that is a red every time in today's game. Did Perch needlessly throw himself to the ground and role around like a baby? Yes.
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Reina deserved the red, and Perch is a twat. We're in agreement.

Young dived, and we were lucky to be awarded the penalty.

What's important though is regardless of that decision we won the game on merit and we have TWO other key decisions go against us.

End of the day, the better team won. Bad decisions are a part of football, just like diving seems to be a part of Youngs repertoire (so i doubt we've seen the last of him starfishing)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Jaysus, it doesn't get any better with repeat viewing.

Look at the way he throws his left leg out sideways as he starts to go down. Blatant attempt to manufacture the "contact" so many people seem to think is the key indicator of whether or not a foul has been committed.

Fwiw, I think the defender was stupid to hang a leg out and there's not many attacking players who wouldn't have been tempted to make something of it but still, it looks very bad on replay.
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I'm not sure he does even hang it. If you are attempting to make a tackle you are in the vicinity in some way. As a defender I think you either have to mean to impede him or if not intentionally impede him then you have to more than just be present. Young suckers him with his body movement and just plan as day beats him, brilliantly, and could have sailed past him, but chose not to. I think anyway.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Sorry, that's just not true. After knocking the ball to his right, his very next step is to push off to the right with his left foot (ie following the ball), and the step after that is the one that is caught by the defender:

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See I've got nothing against young. I have got nothing against divers, every players cheats in one or other form but having said all that, what I don't understand is how can anyone see this gif and say with a straight face, that it was a penalty. I mean you've got to be blind to say it was a penalty after seeing from this angle.
Even if the defender touched young, it still wasn't a peno.
 
Sir A1ex said:
That's not really relevent though. If you've put your foot where it shouldn't be, and then decide to get it out the way but don't manage to in time, it's still a foul.
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That's so ridiculous...

so basically a defender shouldn't even attempt a tackle when an attacker is close to him in the box? Because surely applying that logic the defenders foot is close to the attacker (ie, where it shouldn't be)...so close the attacker could throw himself against the defenders foot, leap into the air, arms splayed and claim a penalty?

Come on...
 
Devilton said:
Young dived, and we were lucky to be awarded the penalty.
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From the angle the referee was at it looked absolutely stone.
It's not as though the ref popped his head around 3 or 4 players with a shite view of it and just blew it up anyway.

The game is so fast these days the ref has to make a decision and bang. We get 3 or 4 good replays to dispute it.

Live speed and the angle the ref saw it, looked about as stone as it comes.
 
Brophs said:
The way he plants his right foot into the defender doesn't look natural to me. If he was genuinely trying to push off and change direction he would have planted his foot further to the right.
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Totally, and it was Young who was in total control of himself and the ball until that point. For me if Clark's shit attempt at defending was a foul then I'm at a loss.
 
Brophs said:
The way he plants his right foot into the defender doesn't look natural to me. If he was genuinely trying to push off and change direction he would have planted his foot further to the right.
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Quite the opposite... if you are trying to push to the right, where do you plant your foot, to the right or left? If he puts his right foot out to the right it can only propel ham back to the left / his previous course.
 
ghaliboy said:
From the angle the referee was at it looked absolutely stone.
It's not as though the ref popped his head around 3 or 4 players with a shite view of it and just blew it up anyway.

The game is so fast these days the ref has to make a decision and bang. We get 3 or 4 good replays to dispute it.

Live speed and the angle the ref saw it, looked about as stone as it comes.
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I don't doubt it.

Refs have the worst job in football. You could have 30 games in a season where you do a bangup job, but the one where you drop a bollacks is the one fans, papers, and media will remember and bring up.

It's a shit job, and most of these guys will continue to make mistakes.

The way to stop cheats is to ban them retrospectively like they do in most other professional sports. But FIFA won't do that because some of the best players in the game cheat. This is fact...FIFA allows cheating to be a part of football, and this is the result.
 
TheBest said:
See I've got nothing against young. I have got nothing against divers, every players cheats in one or other form but having said all that, what I don't understand is how can anyone see this gif and say with a straight face, that it was a penalty. I mean you've got to be blind to say it was a penalty after seeing from this angle.
Even if the defender touched young, it still wasn't a peno.
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Your going to have to explain that to me??

ghaliboy said:
From the angle the referee was at it looked absolutely stone.
It's not as though the ref popped his head around 3 or 4 players with a shite view of it and just blew it up anyway.

The game is so fast these days the ref has to make a decision and bang. We get 3 or 4 good replays to dispute it.

Live speed and the angle the ref saw it, looked about as stone as it comes.
This is the key thing here. At the refs angle it looked a stonewall penalty, and at the end of the day thats the only one that matters and not Skys numerous slow mo replays of various angles!
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