Confidence? Lack of concentration? Do we need a calmer presence in the midfield? I don't know.
I was just posing the question and was hoping to avoid putting everything on coaching just for one thread.
Sloppy passing and touches
- Thread starter Solius
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Confidence? Lack of concentration? Do we need a calmer presence in the midfield? I don't know.
I was just posing the question and was hoping to avoid putting everything on coaching just for one thread.
But confidence and concentration should drip down from the leadership to some degree. It should also come from leaders within the squad, which has been expensively assembled by the manager.
Fair enough if you don’t want to call it ‘coaching’. But it can be seen as an example of poor leadership in my opinion.
It is frightening how so called 'lesser teams' seem to be better than us at doing it. Often the only thing they are lacking is the 80m forward to put it in the net.
If we accept what you say here then it’s not possible for any coach to fix these problems. We have to sell at least half of our best XI and replace them with players capable of making the sort of passes our current squad are apparently unable to make.
In a way, that’s an even more damning reflection of Ole’s time in charge than criticism of his coaching. How did he spend all that money and still end up with a squad as weak as you imply?!
I prefer the theory that better coaching will fix the problem. Because then either Ole gets the right support he needs to help him on the training pitch or we get a new manager. Either outcome is less disruptive than rebuilding the whole squad from the ground up.
Every single team that plays us seem to be able to ping it about perfectly. Every touch is exactly where it needs to go.
This partly again, admittedly is down to our poor pressing but they still have to pull the passes off and they do it well. Teams rarely have a poor game against us where their passing is all over the place.
It's a worry.
Actually I agree with most of what he said. I clarified any points that needed clarification and I argued about one bit of it that were I felt we don't agree 100% upon. That's how proper mature discussion is made ie with no need to insult or to challenge mods to give infractions whatsoever.
I wouldn't know Everton's stats per game. All I know is that Rafa likes a low block team and to hit teams on a counter especially in away games against the big sides. That means that his team tend to surrender a lot of ball possession to their opponents
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People seem to forget that footballers are not, in general, possessed with the brain power of Einstein and have to have things drummed into them again and again. If we took out some of the purple patches we have or moments of sheer brilliance from one player, this would be even more obvious because those are papering over the cracks. the problem is the cracks are more like shifting tectonic plates!
Ole was one of the brighter ones and maybe doesn't realise just how much coaching some of the guys need. I fear, however, he is incapable. I know he went over the top but was Jose so wrong about Shaw a couple of years ago? I remember Jose saying something about Luke being the body but he (jose) was his brains.
Ole needs to be out in the technical area yelling instructions but he never does and neither do Carrick or McKenna (a an aside, ever time I see him I think it's Phil Neville)
Yes, we all understand that he's talking about the supposedly inexcusable mistakes/poor passes that our players are making. But if these players are inherently that inept bad then why are they still at the football club after we've gone through a transitional phase and spent 300-400 million on new signings?
I mean, either it's:
- That the tactics/coaching are dragging them down rather than elevating them
- United is too high pressure an environment for them
- A lack of focus, composure or any other mental attribute
- Or simply, that they aren't good enough (would be nice for us to be specific about who these players are)
Give me a solution to any of the above scenarios which doesn't involve a change in manager, or a replacement of the said player. And please tell me why if the solution is the latter, hasn't the manager already done it given he's been here for 3.5 years and a fortune of spending? Now imagine if you hired someone with 15 years of experience who can't run the SUM formula in excel, but decided to stick with that chap resulting in your company failing to meet targets/objectives.
First and foremost its lack of focus and determination imo. Its not just passes and touches, but we look so fecking casual at times, then we get these 10 minute spells where we really look like we want to win before we get back to playing like a bunch of plonkers
I know its fashionable to rage against Ole and the coaches these days, but quite a few of the players needs to pull their heads from their arses too. Now one could argue its Oles job to pull their heads from their arses, and while that is true to some extent, the players are not aquitted from all responsibility either.
I know its fashionable to rage against Ole and the coaches these days, but quite a few of the players needs to pull their heads from their arses too. Now one could argue its Oles job to pull their heads from their arses, and while that is true to some extent, the players are not aquitted from all responsibility either.
I agree especially on the bolded part, I haven't seen much of Everton prior so I don't know about their setup but after showcasing against Wolves-Newcastle-Young Boys-Villa how to have good chances to get something out of games against us, it certainly should be expected by most teams. And by now, I fully agree, we should have some sort of plan in place to deal with that. Be that a 2-striker-switch and crosses, be that setpiece routines. Anything to create some high value chances when matches take the run they are expected to take.
All fair points.
I meant it seems to be a bit naive to take the possession from one match to illustrate that we are good with it. I understand your point, the poster confirmed that "hated" was a bit OTT but I think, the core message is true. I think, Ole even said it in some interviews, he wants to progress quickly. He isn't interested in patient build up, but likes fast direct attacking moves. He achieved that more than decently but now we have to adapt to opponents who know about our strenghts and are prepared to exploit them. It is the natural "circle of life" for a football team, your opponents know about you and you have to have a broad arsenal of ways to hurt an opponent. If you rely only on a few, you will get punished.
yeah I noticed that as well. I checked back on the whatsapp group I am on, I applauded all teams since Newcastle and thought, holy cow they are really well drilled and technically so comfortable on the ball.It definitely is a factor that we watch all United games for 90 min plus, two times per week - of course you will notice way more BS in your team, repeated mistakes, sloppyness whatsoever than if you watch a team once per season.
But it also has to be noted, that it is quite easy to set up against us. I mean we are pretty transparent about what we are dealing well with and what not. It is a pretty easy gameplan for most managers I'd say and when smaller teams have a full week to prepare, that effect is even more emphasized. But that exactly is, for me, why you have a manager in the dugout, to come up with new ideas, new ways to execute a good plan, ways to mitigate issues you have and how to react on stuff that is visible on the pitch.
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We have players that aren't good enough for one. Secondly, the off ball movement is terrible. Third, we hardly ever play with any sense of urgency. The first reaction of our midfield, and back line is to pass backwards or laterally. It's almost like they can't start an attacking move until DDG has had a few touches first. Then we let teams put 10 men behind the ball while we durdle around and have to rely on players like McT, Fred or AWB that are awful in tight spaces. We are a good counter attacking team when it's on, but otherwise we are painfully slow in transition and we don't have the players to consistently break teams down.
Exactly.
Let's face it, Ole has placed zero emphasis on the midfield and possession play since he's come here, whether one looks at our performances or transfer business.
On the football pitch, we've only consolidated the gains made under Mourinho when it comes to counter attacking and possibly built on it/been more consistent at all, whereas the possession football has gone nowhere (LVG was improving this a lot but his signings were poor). When it comes to transfers, it's even clearer - two midfielders signed, one almost being a second striker (Bruno), and the other a goalscoring midfielder people seem to mistake for a playmaker (VDB). That says it all really.
On our actual players, there are some problem areas - AWB, Mctominay and Fred form an important part of the players contributing to the buildup and that's not a lot of passing quality between them - Mctominay and AWB in particular.
It's a mixture of the two. A professional footballer should be able to pass at an high quality whoever you play for. A static pass, when the receiver doesn't move and it doesn't go anywhere near them is down to the passing player. A moving pass where the reciever is running or should run into an open space is a mixture of individualism and training/coaching. If a player is consistently doing this then it is on the manager/coaches to iron this out with them and drop them if it keeps on. Fred is a good example of this, this season.
Let’s take a look.
72 percent against Everton
56 percent against Villareal
60 percent against Villa
61 percent against West Ham
60 percent against West Ham
46 percent against Young Boys. Finally one that’s below 50 percent, required an early red card, though.
64 percent against Newcastle
56 percent against Wolves
64 percent against Southampton
49 percent against Leeds
That’s our season so far. It’s not even serviceable as hyperbole. Twist it however you want, it was a stupid thing to say and is just straight false. Obviously Ole prefers a quick strike after turn-over rather than wearing teams down with possession, but like I said, that kind of statement just serves to polarize, and is demonstrably false. I’m glad he’s admitted to it being the wrong way to put it.
And what do you think about our passing in these games ^^ ? Was it good, ok, alrightish, awesome, bad, really bad, abysmal? Not only passing contributes to that number. But you already know that.
The vast majority of those teams play a similar style to what Rafa play. Would you be so kind to send us a link from where you got that info from? That seems to be a good site to refer to in the future
I’m just saying that if Ole didn’t care about possession we’d be seeing different numbers. We clearly prefer holding on to the ball at times, and don’t just throw everything forward.
And as you know, I made NO statement about the quality of our possession, I just find it outlandish to claim we give no shits about retaining the ball.
I got them from the match centre on the Man Utd app. Deffo a good source for stats breakdowns for individual matches.
It's not that we don't keep the ball, we do. But, our movement, intensity and general play is slow and sloppy.
It’s the coach’s job to drop the players that consistently under perform. This includes constantly misplacing or under or overplaying passes.
This is all spot on.
Yeah if we’re literally just talking about why they can’t physically do the basics then it’s just a lack of technical ability. No way in hell should a starting central midfielder for Manchester United be as bad at passing as Fred is. No one can coach him to not feck up a 5 yard pass to a teammate, he’s either got it or he hasn’t. Given that it’s the latter, you have to ask what he’s even doing here.
Basically we have too many players who are poor with the ball at their feet. We look like headless chickens trying to play out from the back because it looks as though it could go tits up at any moment. It’s basic shit as well - too many of our team are unable to take the ball under pressure with a nice touch, gain themselves some space and release it to a player wearing the same colour shirt. That’s basic stuff you learn at a young age, and we struggle with it. That for me is a recruitment issue. What you tell the players to do with the ball once they’ve mastered the basic art of passing in a straight line? That’s a coaching issue.
Basically we have too many players who are poor with the ball at their feet. We look like headless chickens trying to play out from the back because it looks as though it could go tits up at any moment. It’s basic shit as well - too many of our team are unable to take the ball under pressure with a nice touch, gain themselves some space and release it to a player wearing the same colour shirt. That’s basic stuff you learn at a young age, and we struggle with it. That for me is a recruitment issue. What you tell the players to do with the ball once they’ve mastered the basic art of passing in a straight line? That’s a coaching issue.
Well if we want to stick to specific words then somebody who doesn't care wouldn't want that number to be high or low. But I understand your point, I guess just like anybody else here. But your conclusion "we clearly prefer holding on to the ball at times" well, I don't see that "clearly". What I see are teams that setup defensively, relatively deep, compact against us. They let us have the ball on the wings, but they make sure, that the center is well protected against Pogba and Bruno. Offensively teams try to attack us very fast and direct with counters. Teams know, that we aren't really good with creating chances, we often rely on moments so the odds are decently enough for that way of defending. As seen with Adama and ASM we struggle against counters (who doesn't) but our tendency to lose organisation and individual mistakes gives most teams an option to try to score. To me that seems to be a pretty solid gameplan wouldn't you agree? I mean, of course teams know with our players there are never guarantees but still - that way seems the most promising.
I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but I want to make sure my point is clear: what is more likely - that teams decide for the gameplan above or that we suddenly became better possession wise and tried harder to hold on to it? There isn't one definitive answer, but to me the odds are pretty clear.
https://fbref.com/de/mannschaften/19538871/Manchester-United-Statistiken
I am sure there is an english version of that as well. When you scroll down past the player statics table, you have all fixtures plus with these numbers as well. You can even export the data.
I mean if we want to compare ourselves to the best team in England at the moment, just take City’s midfield and attacking players. Technically, in terms of simple short sharp passes, clever movement, deft touches, close control, the ability to look up and pick the right pass and barely ever give the ball away in possession, I can’t think of one of our midfielders or attacking players that would get in any one of City’s attacking line ups. Is any of our players technically better on the ball at their feet than any of Foden, Grealish, De Bruyne, Mahrez, Bernardo, Rodri, Cantelo & Gundogan, for example? Hand on heart, I can’t think of one, not even Bruno (harsh maybe given what he has around him). So you can blame coaching to an extent but a lot of it for me is simply down to the quality of footballer we possess and sadly it’s not in the same league of technical footballers listed above.
Fred and McTominay play every week in the midfield. Park coaching aside and just read that again.
I’m sure you can pull apart a range of coaching and players issues supported by a fair amount of credibility, I really am. But then I remind myself that we have imbeciles masquerading in midfield at one of the biggest football clubs in the world and can’t help but focus on that moreso than anything else.
I’m sure you can pull apart a range of coaching and players issues supported by a fair amount of credibility, I really am. But then I remind myself that we have imbeciles masquerading in midfield at one of the biggest football clubs in the world and can’t help but focus on that moreso than anything else.
What I see are teams that setup defensively, relatively deep, compact against us. They let us have the ball on the wings, but they make sure, that the center is well protected against Pogba and Bruno. Offensively teams try to attack us very fast and direct with counters. Teams know, that we aren't really good with creating chances, we often rely on moments so the odds are decently enough for that way of defending. As seen with Adama and ASM we struggle against counters (who doesn't) but our tendency to lose organisation and individual mistakes gives most teams an option to try to score. To me that seems to be a pretty solid gameplan wouldn't you agree? I mean, of course teams know with our players there are never guarantees but still - that way seems the most promising.
I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but I want to make sure my point is clear: what is more likely - that teams decide for the gameplan above or that we suddenly became better possession wise and tried harder to hold on to it? There isn't one definitive answer, but to me the odds are pretty clear.
Very valid viewpoints, even if I don’t fully agree.
We’ve shown that we have the tools to execute quick, intricate team play to beat a low block, and last season we had spells where we slowly ground teams down. We’ve gotten in some new players and it’s all a bit disjointed right now. Would you say it’s more likely that Ronnie and Sancho have worsened us offensively, or that we just need to be patient and we’ll start seeing an improvement on our attacking play from last season?
I’d say the truth is somewhere in between when it comes to whether we’re comfortable with possession or if the other team just fancies taking us on the break. I doubt any teams wants to give us too much time on the ball, even if we’re not looking too lethal at the moment.
I’m not sure where Ole’s tenure is headed. I’m getting the feeling that the squad’s confidence in him might have taken a knock of late. I’d rather give him some more time, though. We’ve still had a better start than last season (not in the CL, but how did that work out?) and if we can regain some form and come out looking alright through the tough couple of months ahead, I’d say that would be grounds for optimism. I can also envisage a sacking if it spirals. I’d rather have told you so’s than what if’s on that front. At any rate I’m excited to see how things play out this season.
That reminded of the time when SAF was manager and in one game Carrick and Fletcher made an outstanding number of passes. Then when the details came 90% of them was between them. These teams know that if they give space United will destroy them. So it is obvious that they would concede possession and deny space so United will have possession. Look at that list. Just to quote them shows the ridiculousness of the whole thing. All of them are below us and Villareal should have won and Newcastle lost in the last 10 mins and `West Ham beat us in one of the games. The only good game we played was against Leeds.
It's all the manager and coaches faults. Brighton play a a good basis of attacking football with intricate passing where hardly anyone knows the players in their midfield aside Bissouma, it's because of the coaching and instructions the team is recieving.
But the bomb came from Fred, and Greenwood on poor short pass.
Your second paragraph is true, but I blame ole since he hasn't ever held a player accountable for shit play. Maybe if some of the underperformers were scared for their job they'd perform better. Again depends on the player but any sane manager would have benched Fred for a month by now
@Solius I know you said leave the Ole stuff out but I have to say in terms of what you are saying Fred is one of the worst when it comes to that. The amount of times he gives the ball away and loses posession is truly horrid. Countless times I've seen that guy missplace a simple pass to someone right infront of him. It's Ole's decision to keep starting him instead of just letting Donny get a run of games, a guy who was brought up by Ajax where everyone is calm with the ball.
So sorry for making it managerial once again but it's just an example. The subject of the thread itself is truly incredibly frustrating to witness, it happens far too often and in many cases even leads to dangerous counter attacks. Wish I knew what they do in training because when they play it seems like simple passing surely is none of it...
So sorry for making it managerial once again but it's just an example. The subject of the thread itself is truly incredibly frustrating to witness, it happens far too often and in many cases even leads to dangerous counter attacks. Wish I knew what they do in training because when they play it seems like simple passing surely is none of it...
The problem is coaching, and McFred.
We lack structure in our game and we don’t have any good game plan at all. Players are often left isolated and has to rely on making decision on their own, without any clear structure/system to guide their way.
We have 2 of the worst passer of ball in the league, in the area we need our passing and buildup play the most.
We lack structure in our game and we don’t have any good game plan at all. Players are often left isolated and has to rely on making decision on their own, without any clear structure/system to guide their way.
We have 2 of the worst passer of ball in the league, in the area we need our passing and buildup play the most.
Nah. More like tactical ineptness.
Most EPL footballer should have no problem passing to his teammates 10 yards away even under mild pressure. There's no excusing we need a 100m midfielder to function.
It's up to the manager to make sure there are bodies around any player to make a simple 10 yard pass at all time.
Granted split defence pass and though killer pass are novelties that only comes with quality, but dont tell me internatially capped players are so bad they can't string 10 yard passes.
Plus these malady only happens with us. Chelsea swap manager the machine is up and running. Ditto with city prepep. We're the only team that needs 3 season and a whole new xi to start playing premier league football
This is more due to the fact that virtually all of those teams with exception of Leeds wanted us to have the ball because we can't do nothing with it and we're too sloppy, slow and generic to actually threaten them. They were all set to defend. It has nothing to do with us being some good possession team. Under LVG we were great at possession, but his signings were crap and unlike Pep he was too hung up on the idea that possession for possession sake itself rather than be used as a useful tool to penetrate defences and deny the opposing team an opportunity to score.
I think if we play VDB more in midfield, it will already improve our overall passing game.
Sure tactical ineptness is key factor leading to our sloppy passing. But people underestimate how important it is to have midfielders who is capable of passing the ball around and involve in build up play.
I think people underestimate the logistic behind simple play. Put VDB is City team he'll suddenly perform ping precision passes. You need the whole team to work in tandem. Barcelona 2009 made things looks so simple but the amount of off the ball movement they have is crazy. Players buzzing subtly looking for empty spaces always moving nonstop. Our team have no answer to their press, doesn't look much on telly but it always seems that we seems to unable to break free and they somehow always have 2 or more bodies for every 1 of our player.
It's tactical more so than individual for build up.
You can't build much when Martial refuses to run and hide behind 2 CB. You can't push much when all you have to your front is an isolated striker and a winger who don't make runs. And a winger can't make runs without the midfield working in tandem.
Bottom line is that for a simple clever pass the whole 10 outfield players works as one. It's more than just 1 player making an individual brilliant pass (although it could be in rare occasion). For a pass to be brilliant they mostly need to be behind the opponent, which takes understanding. You can't make a good pass without good movement.
I wrote this somewhere else, but while not a very popular opinion I think we tend to overrate our squad. Players like Maguire, AWB, Fred, McTominay are not that great with the ball.
Also others like Matic are not mobile and quick enough. Even someone like Varane does not strike me as someone that great when it comes to his first touch. Even Pogba sometimes seems to have weird ball control despite his otherwise magnificent skills, often getting him into dangerous situations. The selfishness and missing defensive work and pressing of some does not really help in regards of creating spaces to move the ball quicker into dangerous areas.
On top of that we seem to lack in the tactical department regarding movement with and without the ball. In the modern game there is only very little time and space so that everything needs to be perfectly planned and executed. Listen to analytical interviews by Nagelsmann, Tuchel etc. explaining exactly how to move when you have space in certain areas and how this changes depending how the other team gets in formation across the field. You cannot really afford players who are not able to handle the ball in tight situations in a way to still pass fast and accurately.
Also others like Matic are not mobile and quick enough. Even someone like Varane does not strike me as someone that great when it comes to his first touch. Even Pogba sometimes seems to have weird ball control despite his otherwise magnificent skills, often getting him into dangerous situations. The selfishness and missing defensive work and pressing of some does not really help in regards of creating spaces to move the ball quicker into dangerous areas.
On top of that we seem to lack in the tactical department regarding movement with and without the ball. In the modern game there is only very little time and space so that everything needs to be perfectly planned and executed. Listen to analytical interviews by Nagelsmann, Tuchel etc. explaining exactly how to move when you have space in certain areas and how this changes depending how the other team gets in formation across the field. You cannot really afford players who are not able to handle the ball in tight situations in a way to still pass fast and accurately.
Sure, not disagree with any of that, as I’ve already pointed out, tactical ineptness is one of 2 key factors of our sloppy passing.
But every team rely heavily on their midfielders to pass the ball around, McFred just isn’t up to the job required. You put McFred instead of Xavi+Iniesta of great Barca team, their tika tala football would be less than half as efficient. Put McFred on instead of DeBruyne+Silva/Rodri in City midfield, they passing game wouldn’t be as fluent or dominating.
But of course they ain’t our only problems, our whole team lack required structure for any decent build up play.
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