Sir Alex Ferguson prepares to clear decks at Old Trafford

[Dr. Dwayne]

You've never experienced German Sense of Humour.

It drains away the will to live faster than anything.

Its truly toxic.

I beg to differ. My father is a Kraut. Very amusing people, I've spent a bit of time there, they are always laughing...as corny as the jokes may be.

 

[PDA1234]

Yes, I do. That's my problem with him. Results-wise they've not been great. They've had one or two good seasosn since he took over, in others they've failed to capitalise or progress from that, in others, they have been unlucky with injuries and there's not much Moyes could do about the latter.

However, they are still defensively weak. They still - after 8 years of him being in charge - hoof the ball relentlessly. They struggle to keep possesion and find it very difficult to hold onto a lead and see out a match. They still are over reliant on Tim Cahill for goals and all he really contributes is a lot of headed goals from corners. He adds very little else, yet they still struggle without him and set up to accomodate him at every opportunity at the expence of other players who are actually capable of playing and creating goals. He starts a game he needs to and is capable of winning with a negative lineup, often keeping his main strikers on the bench until the 70th minute. He will constantly play his better players out of position, never seeming sure of how to get the best out of them. They play some pretty unattractive football and their players are capable of much better than that.

All this is coming from someone who watches Everton a lot, both on TV and at Goodison because my in-laws are Evertonians and often have a spare ticket. Many of my criticisms are shared by Everton fans too. He'sgot a lot of positives, I like him as a person and he does sniff out some absolute bargain, but what he does with them afterwards that is his failing. Perhaps his coaches and staff are to blame for some of that, but his main assett - an eye for cheap talent might not be so valuable at United. He also has no experience of being under real pressure for results. His European experiences have not been great either. Out of curiosity, I'd like to see how he copes at a top club, but I don't want it to be us.

With United he wouldn't be identifying cheap talent. There's no reason to believe Rooney would be any less than the player he is now if not more so if he'd stayed at Everton.

 

[phelans shorts]

I beg to differ. My father is a Kraut. Very amusing people, I've spent a bit of time there, they are always laughing...as corny as the jokes may be.

We can just make them watch Mr. Bean and listen to the Hoff all day, problem solved.

 

[PDA1234]

I beg to differ. My father is a Kraut. Very amusing people, I've spent a bit of time there, they are always laughing...as corny as the jokes may be.

Well obviously it must be something about German Engineers.

Engineers are strange people.

Software Engineers are the strangest of all.

 

[PDA1234]

We can just make them watch Mr. Bean and listen to the Hoff all day, problem solved.

Thanks for that observation.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

We can just make them watch Mr. Bean and listen to the Hoff all day, problem solved.

Well obviously it must be something about German Engineers.

Engineers are strange people.

Software Engineers are the strangest of all.

Having had many friends from high school who went on to study engineering I can verify this to be true.

 

[PDA1234]

Having had many friends from high school who went on to study engineering I can verify this to be true.

At last we agree about something.

[wanders off to sacrifice another chicken]

 

[decorativeed]

With United he wouldn't be identifying cheap talent. There's no reason to believe Rooney would be any less than the player he is now if not more so if he'd stayed at Everton.

Yeas, that's my point. That skill would not be as important.

As for the second point, I'm not sure what it really has to do with my post, but I'd be very surprised if Rooney would have been as good had he stayed at Everton. Moyes has a habit of tinkering with his strikers and with playing his players all over the place. He'd probably have spent a lot more time on the bench, would not had anywhere near as much European experience and might have been a flash-in-the-pan acting the big-time-charlie in Liverpool. There's also the experience of SAF in knowing how to get the best out of young players and protecting them at the same time that Rooney would not have benefitted from at Everton.

 

[zub2007]

might be a bit of a clear out but i cant see us bringing a lot of new players especially with or youth setup

 

[PDA1234]

Yeas, that's my point. That skill would not be as important.

As for the second point, I'm not sure what it really has to do with my post, but I'd be very surprised if Rooney would have been as good had he stayed at Everton. Moyes has a habit of tinkering with his strikers and with playing his players all over the place. He'd probably have spent a lot more time on the bench, would not had anywhere near as much European experience and might have been a flash-in-the-pan acting the big-time-charlie in Liverpool. There's also the experience of SAF in knowing how to get the best out of young players and protecting them at the same time that Rooney would not have benefitted from at Everton.

There's absolutely no way I'd compare Moyes with Hodgson. Hodgson is just like the rest in terms of the managerial merry-go-round.

Moyes is something different.

 

[Fiskey]

Yes, I do. That's my problem with him. Results-wise they've not been great. They've had one or two good seasons since he took over, in others they've failed to capitalise or progress from that, in others, they have been unlucky with injuries and there's not much Moyes could do about the latter.

However, they are still defensively weak. They still - after 8 years of him being in charge - hoof the ball relentlessly. They struggle to keep possesion and find it very difficult to hold onto a lead and see out a match. They still are over reliant on Tim Cahill for goals and all he really contributes is a lot of headed goals from corners. He adds very little else, yet they still struggle without him and set up to accomodate him at every opportunity at the expence of other players who are actually capable of playing and creating goals. He starts a game he needs to and is capable of winning with a negative lineup, often keeping his main strikers on the bench until the 70th minute. He will constantly play his better players out of position, never seeming sure of how to get the best out of them. They play some pretty unattractive football and their players are capable of much better than that.

All this is coming from someone who watches Everton a lot, both on TV and at Goodison because my in-laws are Evertonians and often have a spare ticket. Many of my criticisms are shared by Everton fans too. He's got a lot of positives, I like him as a person and he does sniff out some absolute bargains, but what he does with them afterwards that is his failing. Perhaps his coaches and staff are to blame for some of that, but his main assett - an eye for cheap talent might not be so valuable at United. He also has no experience of being under real pressure for results. His European experiences have not been great either. Out of curiosity, I'd like to see how he copes at a top club, but I don't want it to be us.

As I say look at the wage table then look where they finish. If you outperform you're position I think you've done well. Remember that the standard deviation from the wage table to the real table is something like 0.9 most seasons and assuming the current table was similar to those in the years preceding it he has out performed it in every year but one.

He has also not spent money, which only adds to this accomplishment. I really don't think his record on the pitch can be questioned at all.

 

[Fiskey]

However, they are still defensively weak. They still - after 8 years of him being in charge - hoof the ball relentlessly. They struggle to keep possesion and find it very difficult to hold onto a lead and see out a match. They still are over reliant on Tim Cahill for goals and all he really contributes is a lot of headed goals from corners. He adds very little else, yet they still struggle without him and set up to accomodate him at every opportunity at the expence of other players who are actually capable of playing and creating goals. He starts a game he needs to and is capable of winning with a negative lineup, often keeping his main strikers on the bench until the 70th minute. He will constantly play his better players out of position, never seeming sure of how to get the best out of them. They play some pretty unattractive football and their players are capable of much better than that.

I disagree with you on the belief that they are defensively weak and I think they play better football than you give them credit for. Over reliant on Cahill yes, but when you consider how much Bent went for Everton just don't have the money for a proven goalscorer.

 

[PDA1234]

I disagree with you on the belief that they are defensively weak and I think they play better football than you give them credit for. Over reliant on Cahill yes, but when you consider how much Bent went for Everton just don't have the money for a proven goalscorer.

Precisely.

 

[decorativeed]

There's absolutely no way I'd compare Moyes with Hodgson. Hodgson is just like the rest in terms of the managerial merry-go-round.

Moyes is something different.

Are you just making up what I've written? Where the bloody hell have I mentioned Hodgson?

 

[MadDogg]

He has also not spent money, which only adds to this accomplishment. I really don't think his record on the pitch can be questioned at all.

Moyes has done well, nobody is denying he is a good manager. But a good manager isn't enough. And he hasn't done enough for people to say with confidence he could take that step up. He's had a couple of very good seasons. But he's also had a couple of very poor seasons.

For a manager in his position to go to managing us he would either have had to have done amazingly well at Everton (which he hasn't), or go to a 2nd tier club (bigger than Everton but not as big as us) inbetween and prove himself there.

 

[PDA1234]

Are you just making up what I've written? Where the bloody hell have I mentioned Hodgson?

Fair point

it was the flash in the pan big time charlie that confused me

 

[decorativeed]

As I say look at the wage table then look where they finish. If you outperform you're position I think you've done well. Remember that the standard deviation from the wage table to the real table is something like 0.9 most seasons and assuming the current table was similar to those in the years preceding it he has out performed it in every year but one.

He has also not spent money, which only adds to this accomplishment. I really don't think his record on the pitch can be questioned at all.

I don't really think that the wage table is a good yardstick to measure a future United manager by. Getting players playing consistantly well, playing attractive football and at the same time getting results is what is important. When I go to Goodison, I am not sat thinking, "well these players get a good amount of points on the table in relation to their comparitively low wages", I'm thinking "For Christ's sake! You are a goal down with 15 minutes left and you've taken Hibbert off for Hietinger and left one up front and they are still hoofing it from defence!" A great manager would have sorted that by now.

Also, he has spent money. Not as much as us, Liverpool, or Villa, (and obviously the other two) but he's spent it. He has recouped much of it though, but his strategy for signing strikers seems to be reminiscent of that guy who traded up a paper clip for a house, but never really getting very far. They'll sign someone, who'll have a decent season, then he'll sign someone else. You'll think that they might make a good partnership, but then he'll only play them together a handful of times before the older one is shipped out, then the process begins again. Dynamic, attacking football is not what comes to mind whrn you think of Everton, but they should really be giving the likes of Spurs a run for their money. Instead, it's hit and hope hoofing while hoping that Tim Cahill can head one in from a corner.

I disagree with you on the belief that they are defensively weak and I think they play better football than you give them credit for. Over reliant on Cahill yes, but when you consider how much Bent went for Everton just don't have the money for a proven goalscorer.

They had a very good defence for about 6 months when he finally dropped Yobo and partnered Lescott and Jagielka in the middle. That meant he started to play Baines at left back, after he'd been sat on the bench since moving from Wigan.

He used to do well with Carsley in front of the back four, but when he left, instead of changing his system, he spent ages trying to mould other players (Neville, Fellaini, Jagielka at points during Carsley's last season) into the same style, meaning that their talents were wasted and they weren't contributing as much as they could have been.

Since Lescott went to City, they've been poor in defence. John Heitinga should have improved it, but again, he's been used as a Carsley type of player while Distan shows his age behind him.

Like I said before, Everton might not have a lot of cash for big purchases, but they have bought proven goalscorers plenty of times in recent years but they've not really been used properly.

 

[PDA1234]

I don't really think that the wage table is a good yardstick to measure a future United manager by. Getting players playing consistantly well, playing attractive football and at the same time getting results is what is important. When I go to Goodison, I am not sat thinking, "well these players get a good amount of points on the table in relation to their comparitively low wages", I'm thinking "For Christ's sake! You are a goal down with 15 minutes left and you've taken Hibbert off for Hietinger and left one up front and they are still hoofing it from defence!" A great manager would have sorted that by now.

Also, he has spent money. Not as much as us, Liverpool, or Villa, (and obviously the other two) but he's spent it. He has recouped much of it though, but his strategy for signing strikers seems to be reminiscent of that guy who traded up a paper clip for a house, but never really getting very far. They'll sign someone, who'll have a decent season, then he'll sign someone else. You'll think that they might make a good partnership, but then he'll only play them together a handful of times before the older one is shipped out, then the process begins again. Dynamic, attacking football is not what comes to mind whrn you think of Everton, but they should really be giving the likes of Spurs a run for their money. Instead, it's hit and hope hoofing while hoping that Tim Cahill can head one in from a corner.



They had a very good defence for about 6 months when he finally dropped Yobo and partnered Lescott and Jagielka in the middle. That meant he started to play Baines at left back, after he'd been sat on the bench since moving from Wigan.

He used to do well with Carsley in front of the back four, but when he left, instead of changing his system, he spent ages trying to mould other players (Neville, Fellaini, Jagielka at points during Carsley's last season) into the same style, meaning that their talents were wasted and they weren't contributing as much as they could have been.

Since Lescott went to City, they've been poor in defence. John Heitinga should have improved it, but again, he's been used as a Carsley type of player while Distan shows his age behind him.

Like I said before, Everton might not have a lot of cash for big purchases, but they have bought proven goalscorers plenty of times in recent years but they've not really been used properly.

Would that be City or Everton?

Jagielka has always been a better defender.

 

[KingMinger22]

Everyone and their Nan, inside and out of the club has been waiting for a big signing or two since Ronaldo and Tevez left...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Even the article doesn't suggest a clear out, more a letting go of a few squad players at most. Won't have much of an impact and you usually don't replace squad players with first team quality players.

 

[De Selby]

I beg to differ. My father is a Kraut. Very amusing people, I've spent a bit of time there, they are always laughing...as corny as the jokes may be.

I was in Amsterdam a couple of years' back with a few friends of mine, one of whom was German. We were queuing to get into The Anne Frank museum and my German friend announced in front of everyone 'I don't know why I should have to queue, when us Germans were here last time we just marched right in'.

Pretty funny at the time. No idea if he was serious.

Anyway, yeah, Mourinho for next United manager.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I was in Amsterdam a couple of years' back with a few friends of mine, one of whom was German. We were queuing to get into The Anne Frank museum and my German friend announced in front of everyone 'I don't know why I should have to queue, when us Germans were here last time we just marched right in'.

Pretty funny at the time. No idea if he was serious.

Anyway, yeah, Mourinho for next United manager.

sounds about right. it's they type of joke he probably couldn't make at home so it is understandable.

 

[decorativeed]

Would that be City or Everton?

Jagielka has always been a better defender.

Lescott was fantastic for Everton and those two were a very good central partnership, there was nothing between them in terms of quality though they had fairly different styles. Lescott looks like a totally different player at City.

 

[Salvation]

Moyes: I can see where many who want him are coming from. He's clearly a very good manager but he's overstayed his stint and Everton and should have made the step up to a title contending side by now. Or even City when rumours abound. Everton's blink and miss appearance in that one season of Europe doesn't help either. As it stands, doubt he'd be considered.

Mourinho: Many want him because he's the safest bet. He isn't synonymous with the most entertaining style of football but neither are United at the moment. He has shown that once he does get his squad sorted, it is capable of machine-like efficiency while playing some free flowing football even. I would question many his transfers though and he doesn't really seem like the kind of manager who works on shoestring budgets or has pulled off any bargain buys/unknown finds.

Sven: To me, he seems more like the manager who is good at inheriting a squad and not allowing standards drop. May be that's why he was considered back in 2001. His spell at City does put question marks over his transfers.

Guardiola: If United can get him, nothing tops (may be Wenger but that's quite unrealistic). Do not agree with those who believe he inherited a world class squad. Compare the team which won a European Cup under him to Rijkaard's and there are huge differences in personnel. Question marks on his transfer policy too but his ability to coach the crap out of a football side will eventually reflect on his purchases at least giving it their best, which is half way there for most purchases, IMO. Perhaps what many might consider to be his only flaw is he is too good a person, especially when dealing with peers and the media. Not exactly the mind games type.

Blanc: The obvious dark horse. I'm sure many clubs in Europe are closely monitoring his current stint with France.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Moyes brand of football makes Mourinho's teams look super entertaining. When you see Blackpool playing wonderful free flowing attacking football it shows that you can do it - if you want to.

 

[Salvation]

Blackpool are hardly a novelty in that regard. Reading were excellent in their first season upon returning.

The Boltons, Stokes and Blackburns will tell you it isn't geared to sustain.

Not that it makes Everton entertaining though. But they are impressive to watch when Moyes does manage to get them properly organised.

 

[Spoony]

I was in Amsterdam a couple of years' back with a few friends of mine, one of whom was German. We were queuing to get into The Anne Frank museum and my German friend announced in front of everyone 'I don't know why I should have to queue, when us Germans were here last time we just marched right in'.

Pretty funny at the time. No idea if he was serious.

Anyway, yeah, Mourinho for next United manager.

 

[tintedsepia]

Pep Guardiola would be great. He might even come if he thought he was going to handle ALL of the reins rather than the situation at Barca where other people decide on transfers/transfer targets etc.

 

[PDA1234]

Lescott was fantastic for Everton and those two were a very good central partnership, there was nothing between them in terms of quality though they had fairly different styles. Lescott looks like a totally different player at City.

Well he's a clumsy buffoon at City. They chose the wrong man.

More comic farce.

 

[PDA1234]

Moyes: I can see where many who want him are coming from. He's clearly a very good manager but he's overstayed his stint and Everton and should have made the step up to a title contending side by now. Or even City when rumours abound. Everton's blink and miss appearance in that one season of Europe doesn't help either. As it stands, doubt he'd be considered.

It'll be interesting to see how financial fair play changes things. I think Platini introduced it when Sheikh Mansour appeared on the scene. His thought pattern is obvious.

I really wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry if City were excluded from the champions league for non compliance.

Nonetheless, the point about Moyes is that Everton don't have the money or resources.

City wouldn't take him.

Mourinho: Many want him because he's the safest bet. He isn't synonymous with the most entertaining style of football but neither are United at the moment. He has shown that once he does get his squad sorted, it is capable of machine-like efficiency while playing some free flowing football even. I would question many his transfers though and he doesn't really seem like the kind of manager who works on shoestring budgets or has pulled off any bargain buys/unknown finds.

I guess he's the favourite.

Sven: To me, he seems more like the manager who is good at inheriting a squad and not allowing standards drop. May be that's why he was considered back in 2001. His spell at City does put question marks over his transfers.

I have to disagree. First time they'd done the double on us in ages. It was truly incomprehensible to me why Sinatra replaced him with Sparky.

Guardiola: If United can get him, nothing tops (may be Wenger but that's quite unrealistic). Do not agree with those who believe he inherited a world class squad. Compare the team which won a European Cup under him to Rijkaard's and there are huge differences in personnel. Question marks on his transfer policy too but his ability to coach the crap out of a football side will eventually reflect on his purchases at least giving it their best, which is half way there for most purchases, IMO. Perhaps what many might consider to be his only flaw is he is too good a person, especially when dealing with peers and the media. Not exactly the mind games type.

I agree, but there's no chance as far as I can see.

Blanc: The obvious dark horse. I'm sure many clubs in Europe are closely monitoring his current stint with France.

[/QUOTE]

Good point - another long shot.

 

[MadDogg]

The big worry about Blanc is the utter collapse of Bordeaux last season. If I remember correctly they were on top of the ladder with a fairly good lead around the half way point, but then fell apart spectacularly and missed out on all european spots by finishing 6th.

I don't take much notice of the French league so I don't know if there were extenuating circumstances (huge injury list perhaps?), but it's definitely a black mark against his name that the slump lasted so long.

 

[decorativeed]

...
However, they are still defensively weak. They still - after 8 years of him being in charge - hoof the ball relentlessly. They struggle to keep possesion and find it very difficult to hold onto a lead and see out a match. They still are over reliant on Tim Cahill for goals and all he really contributes is a lot of headed goals from corners. He adds very little else, yet they still struggle without him and set up to accomodate him at every opportunity at the expence of other players who are actually capable of playing and creating goals. He starts a game he needs to and is capable of winning with a negative lineup, often keeping his main strikers on the bench until the 70th minute. He will constantly play his better players out of position, never seeming sure of how to get the best out of them. They play some pretty unattractive football and their players are capable of much better than that.

Todays game seemed to follow the same lines if what my Mrs tells me is true. Still, I did console her by telling her what a good record they have in the wages table and not to worry too much as Cahill will be back in a few games...

Well he's a clumsy buffoon at City. They chose the wrong man.

More comic farce.

Well, if you are judging Lescott purely by his City form, you really can't have seen much of Everton at all over the last five years or so.