Sir Alex Ferguson prepares to clear decks at Old Trafford

[PDA1234]

This thread really got focused on the manager part of the article.

[opens timesonline window]

Well apparently Giggsy has signed another year long contract. He plus Gary Neville and Paul Scholes were the three I had in mind when I talked about squad demographics.

Obviously Owen was always a no brainer and VDS said he's going anyway.

However I'm gobsmacked about Berba, O'Shea, Gibson, Evra, De Laet and the rest.

 

[Bryan_Munich]

I'm sorry, but our status as one of the top 3 clubs in the world means we need one of the top 3 managers in the world.

Moyes would be lucky to make a top 20 list.

There a plenty of examples of manager over-performing given resources available, but only very few of those make it to the very top.

Where would you say Ferguson was on that list when United went for him?

 

[Cal?]

My point would be that we don't know if he's one of the top three managers in the world as he hasn't been given the chance to prove it. He's done amazingly well at Everton, I doubt any manager in the world could have done better, and deserves an opportunity with more resources at his disposal.

The perfect job for him if you could take the rivalry out of it would be the Liverpool job, if I was Henry I would go hammer and tongs to get him.

Winning the CL with a team like Porto, winning the Treble with Inter, that's proving you're one of the very very best.

The problem with Moyes is that he has no record of winning anything.

 

[The Black Pearl]

Well he's proved himself at the very higehst level so yeah I'd say less ridiculous than Moyes in that respect. It's the whole German thing that may be difficult to get around.

Considering the amount of young talent in Germany atm, his reputation & contacts, he might not be a bad appointment at all.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

[opens timesonline window]

Well apparently Giggsy has signed another year long contract. He plus Gary Neville and Paul Scholes were the three I had in mind when I talked about squad demographics.

Obviously Owen was always a no brainer and VDS said he's going anyway.

However I'm gobsmacked about Berba, O'Shea, Gibson, Evra, De Laet and the rest.

cheers.

I realized that the latter half of the article focused on managerial questions.

 

[Cal?]

Where would you say Ferguson was on that list when United went for him?

Where would you say United were in the list of best club sides in the World when we went for Sir Alex?

 

[esmufc07]

Where would you say Ferguson was on that list when United went for him?

United weren't one of the top 3 clubs in the world in 1986.

And Fergie's record with Aberdeen was much better than Moyes' is with Everton.

 

[Cal?]

Well he's proved himself at the very higehst level so yeah I'd say less ridiculous than Moyes in that respect. It's the whole German thing that may be difficult to get around.

I'd have no problems with having a German in charge at all. It's been a long long time, even Japan have dropped into 2nd place in the country Chinese people dislike the most...

 

[Cal?]

United weren't one of the top 3 clubs in the world in 1986.

And Fergie's record with Aberdeen was much better than Moyes' is with Everton.

Exactly, Sir Alex winning the Cup Winners Cup with a club like Aberdeen is similar to Mourinho winning the CL with a club like Porto. The improbably victory against all odds.

 

[Fiskey]

Winning the CL with a team like Porto, winning the Treble with Inter, that's proving you're one of the very very best.

The problem with Moyes is that he has no record of winning anything.

I'm not saying we shouldn't go for Mourinho, say however he's unavailable, it is surely not ridiculous to consider a guy who's been overachieving consistently for 8 years.

I am saying it would be next to impossible for him to win anything of that magnitude with Everton, I very much doubt Mourinho would have done a better job than he has. Therefore as things stand we do not know if he has the capability, all we know is that he is probably the best manager around at his level. Do we take the risk, in the belief that he can become one of the best in the world given the opportunity, or do we go for a more established option, that's the question and I think its a fair one.

 

[towcester_red]

In my opinion appointing Moyes wouldnt be much different to Liverpool appointing Hodgson.

Could be a safe pair of hands but could he handle the pressure?

Fans could get on his back too, would be an appointment met with mixed opinions.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'd have no problems with having a German in charge at all. It's been a long long time, even Japan have dropped into 2nd place in the country Chinese people dislike the most...

Their football these last couple of years has been fantastic. I wouldn't be concerned about the team not playing football the right way with Jogi as our boss.

 

[Cal?]

I'm not saying we shouldn't go for Mourinho, say however he's unavailable, it is surely not ridiculous to consider a guy who's been overachieving consistently for 8 years.

I am saying it would be next to impossible for him to win anything of that magnitude with Everton, I very much doubt Mourinho would have done a better job than he has. Therefore as things stand we do not know if he has the capability, all we know is that he is probably the best manager around at his level. Do we take the risk, in the belief that he can become one of the best in the world given the opportunity, or do we go for a more established option, that's the question and I think its a fair one.

I wouldn't say Moyes has over-achieved every season, he did amazingly well to get to the CL qualifying phase, but qualifying for the Europa or thereabouts isn't really that amazing.

As pointed out before, Allardyce has a comparable record, do we consider him too?

 

[Fiskey]

Exactly, Sir Alex winning the Cup Winners Cup with a club like Aberdeen is similar to Mourinho winning the CL with a club like Porto. The improbably victory against all odds.

The world was different in the 80s, fantastic achievement no doubt but more possible then. Porto are also a large club with large resources and had a fantastic team. No doubt they overperformed, and Mourinho deserves huge credit, but again its wasn't an impossible feat, Monaco got to the final the same year.

I suppose a question would be to anyone is do people think Moyes could have done any better at Everton? I for one think he has done about as well as he possibly could have.

 

[Bryan_Munich]

United weren't one of the top 3 clubs in the world in 1986.

And Fergie's record with Aberdeen was much better than Moyes' is with Everton.

Thanks for the history lesson, I was supporting them before you were born.

Whilst that is true, you can't compare the two eras like for like.

You could put Jose Mourinho in charge at Aberdeen now and he wouldn't break the dominance of the Old Firm.

 

[Cal?]

In my opinion appointing Moyes wouldnt be much different to Liverpool appointing Hodgson.

Could be a safe pair of hands but could he handle the pressure?

Fans could get on his back too, would be an appointment met with mixed opinions.

I really don't think Moyes has what it takes to handle the pressure, and at the first sign of any problem, fans will get on his back.

It really would take someone special to step into Sir Alex's shoes - The Special One.

Their football these last couple of years has been fantastic. I wouldn't be concerned about the team not playing football the right way with Jogi as our boss.

I would have reservations about Low is the lack of winning record and also quite a poor record in club management.

 

[Fiskey]

I wouldn't say Moyes has over-achieved every season, he did amazingly well to get to the CL qualifying phase, but qualifying for the Europa or thereabouts isn't really that amazing.

As pointed out before, Allardyce has a comparable record, do we consider him too?

Look at the wage table, and then look at where Everton have finsihed under Moyes, and look where he's taken them from where they were before he arrived.


1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th
2002-03 38 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th
2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th

Add to this the fact he has spent next to no money and I think its fair to say he has overachieved in every season with the possible exception of 05-06.

 

[PDA1234]

Never really fancied him personally.

I dont want somebody who was effectively sacked by City as our next manager.

The corrupt Thai Prime Minister sacked him and replaced him with Sparky.

Typical Man City comic farce.

 

[Fiskey]

I really don't think Moyes has what it takes to handle the pressure, and at the first sign of any problem, fans will get on his back.

It really would take someone special to step into Sir Alex's shoes - The Special One.



I would have reservations about Low is the lack of winning record and also quite a poor record in club management.

How do you know this? Its a risk but he's shown no signs of not being able to handle pressure.

 

[PDA1234]

cheers.

I realized that the latter half of the article focused on managerial questions.

Its also the nature of usenet of course

GTBOA HAND

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I would have reservations about Low is the lack of winning record and also quite a poor record in club management.

I wouldn't say it was poor, mixed certainly but he's had some success albeit some abject failures as well.

That said, he's demonstrated that he's tactically astute given quality players. His failures seem to have come at clubs where quality was perhaps missing.

 

[Cal?]

The world was different in the 80s, fantastic achievement no doubt but more possible then. Porto are also a large club with large resources and had a fantastic team. No doubt they overperformed, and Mourinho deserves huge credit, but again its wasn't an impossible feat, Monaco got to the final the same year.

I suppose a question would be to anyone is do people think Moyes could have done any better at Everton? I for one think he has done about as well as he possibly could have.

Aberdeen overcame the likes of Bayern Munich & Real Madrid enroute to their Cup Winners Cup. Porto are a very big club in Portugal, but still punched well above their weight to win the CL.

I personally think there are quite a few who would have done better than Moyes - Sir Alex & Wenger from the PL for starts.

Thanks for the history lesson, I was supporting them before you were born.

Whilst that is true, you can't compare the two eras like for like.

You could put Jose Mourinho in charge at Aberdeen now and he wouldn't break the dominance of the Old Firm.

You can't, but the point is exceeding all expectations. Porto were nowhere near one of the contenders for the CL at the beginning of 03/04. Inter weren't amongst the favourites last season (esp given their poor record in the tournament).

The likes of Sir Alex & Mourinho seem to be able to achieve the improbable, I just don't see it in Moyes.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Not sure who will be Fergie's replacement but Ole will be the assistant with Giggs and Neville not too far.

After a few years as being a United assistant Ole will take the reigns and manage the club for 20+ years. Sorted.

 

[Cal?]

How do you know this? Its a risk but he's shown no signs of not being able to handle pressure.

Has he even been under the kind of pressure we're talking about? Whilst I'd like to think everyone will give whoever takes over a chance, it's inevitable that there will be a lot of kneejerk reactions to any sign of trouble, the media will be in a frenzy...

I wouldn't say it was poor, mixed certainly but he's had some success albeit some abject failures as well.

That said, he's demonstrated that he's tactically astute given quality players. His failures seem to have come at clubs where quality was perhaps missing.

True, but there is no doubt he's a very good tactician when given the right players, but we have no idea if he can do a job in the transfer windows.

 

[Cal?]

Not sure who will be Fergie's replacement but Ole will be the assistant with Giggs and Neville not too far.

After a few years as being a United assistant Ole will take the reigns and manage the club for 20+ years. Sorted.

Sir Alex hasn't even retied and you're already planning for the guy to replace to guy who replaces him?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

True, but there is no doubt he's a very good tactician when given the right players, but we have no idea if he can do a job in the transfer windows.

Definitely agree with the transfer bit. What he does have going for him is that he surely must be highly respected for his success with the national team, helpful in dealing with big players and he likely has a lot of contacts in Germany as I'm of the opinion that most Bundeliga players would have little difficulty adapting to English football.

 

[Cal?]

Definitely agree with the transfer bit. What he does have going for him is that he surely must be highly respected for his success with the national team, helpful in dealing with big players and he likely has a lot of contacts in Germany as I'm of the opinion that most Bundeliga players would have little difficulty adapting to English football.

Agreed. Probably should be on a shortlist, somewhere ahead of Moyes but behind Mourinho...

 

[PDA1234]

I will get slated for this but I want Joachim Löw, love the way he has Germany playing football.

Oh you've opened up a can of worms there.

The other teams in the PL would have fun with us about that.

As for Moyes being able to handle the pressure of a job at United, there's no doubt in my mind that he has ambitions to get to the top and some club will offer him a job even if we don't.

I understand your logic about Low though.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The other teams in the PL would have fun with us about that.

I'm not sure what you mean here PDA...care to expand?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm not sure what you mean here PDA...care to expand?

Think he means puns with his name and the fashion...only guessing

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Think he means puns with his name and the fashion...only guessing

ahh things like 'Jog on, Luv' I suppose?

I think he looks dapper in those scarves.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

ahh things like 'Jog on, Luv' I suppose?

I think he looks dapper in those scarves.

Or if we lose "Utd hit Low point" etc boring ones, The Sun would love it.

I aslo like his touchline fashion sense in a metrosexual way of course

 

[dev1l]

[opens timesonline window]

Well apparently Giggsy has signed another year long contract. He plus Gary Neville and Paul Scholes were the three I had in mind when I talked about squad demographics.

Obviously Owen was always a no brainer and VDS said he's going anyway.

However I'm gobsmacked about Berba, O'Shea, Gibson, Evra, De Laet and the rest.

I got the feeling that Scholes will play for yet another year together with Giggs.

Neville will retire and so will VDS (though I wont be surprised if VDS plays on for another year too).

I see Owen leaving and perhaps even Gibson, De Laet but I m not so sure about Berbatov, O Shea and Evra and.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Or if we lose "Utd hit Low point" etc boring ones, The Sun would love it.

I aslo like his touchline fashion sense in a metrosexual way of course

Yeah, the sad part being that the english 'low' is nowhere near the proper pronunciation, still you can bet The Sun wouldn't let that stop them.

 

[PDA1234]

I'm not sure what you mean here PDA...care to expand?

Not easy to explain without sounding racist but basically all the England Germany banter except with us it would be every game.

This is the best I can do: -

England and Germany football rivalry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its also national temperaments.

Having worked on Eurofighter, they have a different sense of humour and culture.

 

[Wumminator]

Laurent Blanc has won a major league with a side he made himself, he's played here before, has a great relationship with Fergie, and hasn't shown the same mercenary tendancies that Mourinho has.

Perfect.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Not easy to explain without sounding racist but basically all the England Germany banter except with us it would be every game.

This is the best I can do: -

England and Germany football rivalry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its also national temperaments.

Having worked on Eurofighter, they have a different sense of humour and culture.

Well, since Brits and Krauts are both caucasian you don't have to worry about racism. I'm aware of the rivalry but for United, to not be backed by Ingerlund fans is nothing new.

With a club like United more of a siege mentality is only a good thing.

Would be interesting to see it in action, though. Probably quite amusing.

 

[Fiskey]

Aberdeen overcame the likes of Bayern Munich & Real Madrid enroute to their Cup Winners Cup. Porto are a very big club in Portugal, but still punched well above their weight to win the CL.

I personally think there are quite a few who would have done better than Moyes - Sir Alex & Wenger from the PL for starts.

The likes of Sir Alex & Mourinho seem to be able to achieve the improbable, I just don't see it in Moyes.

The same Wenger who has only just about managed to keep his Arsenal team above Everton with double the wage bill and an academy built to his specifications.

You really sure he would have done better?

 

[decorativeed]

The world was different in the 80s, fantastic achievement no doubt but more possible then. Porto are also a large club with large resources and had a fantastic team. No doubt they overperformed, and Mourinho deserves huge credit, but again its wasn't an impossible feat, Monaco got to the final the same year.

I suppose a question would be to anyone is do people think Moyes could have done any better at Everton? I for one think he has done about as well as he possibly could have.

Yes, I do. That's my problem with him. Results-wise they've not been great. They've had one or two good seasons since he took over, in others they've failed to capitalise or progress from that, in others, they have been unlucky with injuries and there's not much Moyes could do about the latter.

However, they are still defensively weak. They still - after 8 years of him being in charge - hoof the ball relentlessly. They struggle to keep possesion and find it very difficult to hold onto a lead and see out a match. They still are over reliant on Tim Cahill for goals and all he really contributes is a lot of headed goals from corners. He adds very little else, yet they still struggle without him and set up to accomodate him at every opportunity at the expence of other players who are actually capable of playing and creating goals. He starts a game he needs to and is capable of winning with a negative lineup, often keeping his main strikers on the bench until the 70th minute. He will constantly play his better players out of position, never seeming sure of how to get the best out of them. They play some pretty unattractive football and their players are capable of much better than that.

All this is coming from someone who watches Everton a lot, both on TV and at Goodison because my in-laws are Evertonians and often have a spare ticket. Many of my criticisms are shared by Everton fans too. He's got a lot of positives, I like him as a person and he does sniff out some absolute bargains, but what he does with them afterwards that is his failing. Perhaps his coaches and staff are to blame for some of that, but his main assett - an eye for cheap talent might not be so valuable at United. He also has no experience of being under real pressure for results. His European experiences have not been great either. Out of curiosity, I'd like to see how he copes at a top club, but I don't want it to be us.

 

[PDA1234]

Well, since Brits and Krauts are both caucasian you don't have to worry about racism. I'm aware of the rivalry but for United, to not be backed by Ingerlund fans is nothing new.

With a club like United more of a siege mentality is only a good thing.

Would be interesting to see it in action, though. Probably quite amusing.

You've never experienced German Sense of Humour.

It drains away the will to live faster than anything.

Its truly toxic.