Shola Shoretire | signed for PAOK

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spontaneus1 said:
He has been playing for the u23 all year, regularly up against player 3-5 years older than him. Tearing it up at u23 level is way to much to expect, even the fact he doesn't look out of place is great by itself. Judging youth players off statistics is useless anyway, you have to watch them and see their potential as by definition they are not fully formed players yet.
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I watch the majority of the U23 games. He’s a good technician: neat & tidy. But not with much of an end product at this point in time. You can reject stats, but the other three I mentioned were all dominant at U18 level in comparison. Shoretire has scored just 1 goal from 20 appearances for The 18s/19s. That suggests that he hasn‘t adapted as well as people would have predicted 2 years ago when he was tearing it up down the age groups. His mazy runs and dribbling ability were what I heard a lot about. More of a #10.

Do you see a Gomes or Greenwood level talent at the moment? I don’t. But he still has time on his side. I’m not writing him off. He just wouldn’t be in my top 5 current teenage prospects at the club.

carpy said:
Saw highlights of the u23 game against Everton a couple of days ago and noticed Shoretire seems to have had / be having a growth spurt. Looks around the same size as Mejbri now.
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That‘s what I was hinting at. He’s now taller and also stockier. You can lose your agility and low centre of gravity when you grow. Being tall doesn‘t suit every player.

Red00012 said:
He’s 16 and he hasn’t lived up to the hype ? :wenger: :D
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Considering the player he was at the lower age groups, then no. A reputable youth watcher like @jb8521 might be able to give you more insight. I think he also agrees that a switch to the flanks probably hasn’t suited him.

Grande said:
How was Rashford and Gomes doing for the U23s at 16? And aforson haven’t played at that level at all, has he? Seems like you’re jumping both barrels of the gun by quite a few years with that pennydropping.
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Gomes has made his 1st team debut at 16 btw.

Like I mentioned above, 1 goal from 20 games at U18/U19 level.

I don’t have access to all of Rashford’s U18 stats, but he did score 2 FAYC goals and bagged 3 goals from 5 games in The UEFA YL a few weeks before making his 1st team debut at 18 under LvG.

Gomes has put up serious numbers at U18, U19 & U23 level for United. Debut at 16. U17 World Cup winner.

Greenwood scored a goal every game at both U18 & U19 level.

I don’t see a 1st team player in the making at the moment. That can change over the next 3 years. Lingard was a late developer. Always a decent technician with good movement, but took him awhile to assert himself on games. He then became prolific (goals & assists) for The Reserves from 19 onwards. Shoretire might follow a similar path.
 
Footy van de Geek said:
I watch the majority of the U23 games. He’s a good technician: neat & tidy. But not with much of an end product at this point in time. You can reject stats, but the other three I mentioned were all dominant at U18 level in comparison. Shoretire has scored just 1 goal from 20 appearances for The 18s/19s. That suggests that he hasn‘t adapted as well as people would have predicted 2 years ago when he was tearing it up down the age groups. His mazy runs and dribbling ability were what I heard a lot about. More of a #10.

Do you see a Gomes or Greenwood level talent at the moment? I don’t. But he still has time on his side. I’m not writing him off. He just wouldn’t be in my top 5 current teenage prospects at the club.


That‘s what I was hinting at. He’s now taller and also stockier. You can lose your agility and low centre of gravity when you grow. Being tall doesn‘t suit every player.



Considering the player he was at the lower age groups, then no. A reputable youth watcher like @jb8521 might be able to give you more insight. I think he also agrees that a switch to the flanks probably hasn’t suited him.



Gomes has made his 1st team debut at 16 btw.

Like I mentioned above, 1 goal from 20 games at U18/U19 level.

I don’t have access to all of Rashford’s U18 stats, but he did score 2 FAYC goals and bagged 3 goals from 5 games in The UEFA YL a few weeks before making his 1st team debut at 18 under LvG.

Gomes has put up serious numbers at U18, U19 & U23 level for United. Debut at 16. U17 World Cup winner.

Greenwood scored a goal every game at both U18 & U19 level.

I don’t see a 1st team player in the making at the moment. That can change over the next 3 years. Lingard was a late developer. Always a decent technician with good movement, but took him awhile to assert himself on games. He then became prolific (goals & assists) for The Reserves from 19 onwards. Shoretire might follow a similar path.
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Whilst I'm agree that Shoretire hasn't shown the dominancy when he played, we have actually almost never seen him playing in his own age group. Even when he was younger those tournament I saw him he always played above the age group. Those U18s/19s stats that you mentioned is was last season when he was a schoolboy. This season he has been pushed to the 23s permanently.

Gomes was playing with the U18s mostly when he's at Shoretire current age, he's only been pushed to the U23s on the second half of his second year scholar's year.

Heck even Greenwood played majorily with the U18s at that age, then he played a bit for the U23s and the rest is history.

Rashford played majorily U18s football at the same age (in fact all), and even the following year, before his breakthrough.

I would trust the coaches at the club for the decisions with Shoretire. He's still ahead of pretty much everyone in the same age group at the club beside maybe Hugill (maybe Willy after he adapts). Gomes was also struggle with U23s football at first, at older age. I think people are loving to judge youngsters too early without context.
 
Anyone watching the u23s the last few months will have realised how young our team looks. It's almost been an u18s at times. The entire team has looked physically outmatched, with Shoretire, still a young 16, up against some pretty imposing defenders and midfielders.

I am hoping this is a strategy we are deploying, rather than just being in a position were we don't have enough 19-20 year olds, who were good enough from previous years.

Someone linked an article talking about young players month of birth affecting how they progress in academies because they are playing with older players. Is Shoretire one of those special cases, who needs to be against better opposition? Right now I don't feel like it is bringing the best out of him, but maybe long term, it will make him a better player?

Hugill has been featuring for both the 18s and 23s, which feels like a much better approach to me. Grabs a brace for the 18s then takes that confidence in to the 23s were he looks pretty good as well.

I think questioning Shoretire's ability at this stage is incredibly unfair. The "problem", if there even is one, is how he is being managed.
 
Any danger that Shoretire's camp are pushing United to play him in the u23s? It's rumoured on England forums that this happens with the NT and there's conflict because England refuse to play him beyond his age group.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Any danger that Shoretire's camp are pushing United to play him in the u23s? It's rumoured on England forums that this happens with the NT and there's conflict because England refuse to play him beyond his age group.
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Wouldn’t surprise me at all.
 
Footy van de Geek said:
Gomes has made his 1st team debut at 16 btw.

Like I mentioned above, 1 goal from 20 games at U18/U19 level.

I don’t have access to all of Rashford’s U18 stats, but he did score 2 FAYC goals and bagged 3 goals from 5 games in The UEFA YL a few weeks before making his 1st team debut at 18 under LvG.

Gomes has put up serious numbers at U18, U19 & U23 level for United. Debut at 16. U17 World Cup winner.

Greenwood scored a goal every game at both U18 & U19 level.

I don’t see a 1st team player in the making at the moment. That can change over the next 3 years. Lingard was a late developer. Always a decent technician with good movement, but took him awhile to assert himself on games. He then became prolific (goals & assists) for The Reserves from 19 onwards. Shoretire might follow a similar path.
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I don’t dispute your judgement of watching the player. I’ve only seen highligts myself, so I don’t claim any better knowledge.

What confuses me is how you seem to compare apples with oranges without acknowledging it. I ask were Greenwood, Gomes and Rashford were at his age in regards to U23/reserves level. Apart from Gomes ten minute showcase with Mourinho, which in it’s context I don’t think holds much value as a measure of progression given that Mou barely used him again the next two years, you come with examples of them doing great at U18 football as if there was no difference between U18 and U23 as a 16 year old.

As someone mentioned, the Shoretire at U18 that you compare with Mason, Angel and Marcus, was a 15 and 14 year old and small of frame to boot.

I don’t believe you can say that a player is necessarily a bigger talent than another because one is played against 23 year olds while the other is played against 18 year olds. Still it seems equally obvious that a) there is a reason for it, and b) he’s not going to look as good as when playing 18 year olds, normally. When the youth coaches at those levels thinks Shoretire can better develop at that level than they thought Rashford and Gomes could at the same age, I trust that reflects on his level and development. The end product of that is not his dominance of games or goal points, it’s to only to be seen not in 2021, but more likely when he’s between 18 and 21 some time, I should think.
 
Faetheshire86 said:
Anyone watching the u23s the last few months will have realised how young our team looks. It's almost been an u18s at times. The entire team has looked physically outmatched, with Shoretire, still a young 16, up against some pretty imposing defenders and midfielders.

I am hoping this is a strategy we are deploying, rather than just being in a position were we don't have enough 19-20 year olds, who were good enough from previous years.

Someone linked an article talking about young players month of birth affecting how they progress in academies because they are playing with older players. Is Shoretire one of those special cases, who needs to be against better opposition? Right now I don't feel like it is bringing the best out of him, but maybe long term, it will make him a better player?

Hugill has been featuring for both the 18s and 23s, which feels like a much better approach to me. Grabs a brace for the 18s then takes that confidence in to the 23s were he looks pretty good as well.

I think questioning Shoretire's ability at this stage is incredibly unfair. The "problem", if there even is one, is how he is being managed.
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I agree with all of this. He looks a good little player to me in the U23s. Not quite quick or strong enough to impose himself yet but I don't think he looks out of place. I think even comparing to Rossi, say, would be unfair because he's not really a striker, more of a classic 10. Also I can't remember but I think Rossi only started playing reserve football regularly at 17?

Clearly he needs to keep working but he's doing fine far as I can tell.
 
His best overall game in U23 yesterday, not just because of goal and assist.
 
Making comparisons is really difficult and as players play in different roles, with different players and are at different stages of development I'm not sure anyone really knows much unless you work with the players every day like the coaches do.

Having said that...given the players mentioned here are some stats.

Rossi only joined us at 17....so it was impossible for him to do any more than he did. We have no idea if he was with us earlier whether he would have played up his age group or not. He arrived at the start of the 2004/05 season, played a two Academy games for us upon his arrival from Parma, scored three goals and was immediately promoted to the Reserves as he was too good for the U/18's. In his first season he scored 20 goals in 31 games. The following year at 18, he scored 30 goals in 29 games for the Reserves. He was different class.

Rashford wasn't getting regular Reserve team football at 17. In 2014/15 when he was 16/17 he played all his football in the U/18's scoring 13 goals in 24 appearances. He didn't feature for the Reserves at all that season. In 2015/16, he was still with the U/18's scoring 7 goals in 13 appearances before moving up the reserves making the odd subs appearance. Rashford only played one full game for the reserves before he was called into the first team due to injuries. In effect, Rashford completely skipped reserve team football.

Both Rossi and Rashford were more physical players as you would expect from strikers. As a consequence their form and development were naturally linked to how many goals they scored.

Greenwood we all know about but played up a level or two most of his junior career.

Gomes was a different player and probably most like Shoretire in terms of position, role, stature and type of player they were.

Gomes started featuring in the U/18's when he was 14 years old and in the 2015/16 season when he was 15 years old played in ten matches. The following season 2016/17 (16 yo) he played in 20 games for the U/18's scoring 12 goals...a ratio better than Rashford's given he was two years younger and not playing up front.

Shoretire made his debut for the U/19's in the 2018/19 season when he was also only 14. He only made one further appearance for the U/18's which was off the bench. Last season, 2019/20, when he was 15 he featured in 16 games for the U/18's scoring 2 goals. This season, at 16, he has appeared solely in the U/23's featuring in 6 games and scoring twice. Thats quite a meteoric rise. Basically, Shoretire has skipped U/18 football completely and settled into the second team squad. It's a very rare to see this and I can't think of many players where that has happened. I mean...he is still eligible for the U/18's for another two years.

Personally, given his lack of goalscoring history for a forward player, I do not necessarily see anything special in Shoretire. He is a good technical player, obviously mature for his age, but given other players have 'performed' more strongly/effectively in relatively similar circumstances I don't see anything so far that excites me. Certainly his age is a massive factor so the next 2/3 years will be interesting as all his peer group will catch up in terms of pushing into first team reckoning.

Having said all of that...I've been wrong too many times about players to make any predictions and therefore trust the coaches in identifying a players potential and development path. Maybe they already recognise that he plays better with older players, and will come into his own as a late developer. If he does that will be great news...but his goals and assists for a forward player will need to improve dramatically over that period.

Fingers crossed.
 
I'm excited to see his progress. Would be even better if commentators could learn how to say his name. I shudder each time I hear shore-tyre. It's a not very difficult sho-reh-ti-reh.
 
Looks very promising if that video is anything to go by. Plays with his head up and can execute a pass. No small amount of skill too
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Making comparisons is really difficult and as players play in different roles, with different players and are at different stages of development I'm not sure anyone really knows much unless you work with the players every day like the coaches do.

Having said that...given the players mentioned here are some stats.

Rossi only joined us at 17....so it was impossible for him to do any more than he did. We have no idea if he was with us earlier whether he would have played up his age group or not. He arrived at the start of the 2004/05 season, played a two Academy games for us upon his arrival from Parma, scored three goals and was immediately promoted to the Reserves as he was too good for the U/18's. In his first season he scored 20 goals in 31 games. The following year at 18, he scored 30 goals in 29 games for the Reserves. He was different class.

Rashford wasn't getting regular Reserve team football at 17. In 2014/15 when he was 16/17 he played all his football in the U/18's scoring 13 goals in 24 appearances. He didn't feature for the Reserves at all that season. In 2015/16, he was still with the U/18's scoring 7 goals in 13 appearances before moving up the reserves making the odd subs appearance. Rashford only played one full game for the reserves before he was called into the first team due to injuries. In effect, Rashford completely skipped reserve team football.

Both Rossi and Rashford were more physical players as you would expect from strikers. As a consequence their form and development were naturally linked to how many goals they scored.

Greenwood we all know about but played up a level or two most of his junior career.

Gomes was a different player and probably most like Shoretire in terms of position, role, stature and type of player they were.

Gomes started featuring in the U/18's when he was 14 years old and in the 2015/16 season when he was 15 years old played in ten matches. The following season 2016/17 (16 yo) he played in 20 games for the U/18's scoring 12 goals...a ratio better than Rashford's given he was two years younger and not playing up front.

Shoretire made his debut for the U/19's in the 2018/19 season when he was also only 14. He only made one further appearance for the U/18's which was off the bench. Last season, 2019/20, when he was 15 he featured in 16 games for the U/18's scoring 2 goals. This season, at 16, he has appeared solely in the U/23's featuring in 6 games and scoring twice. Thats quite a meteoric rise. Basically, Shoretire has skipped U/18 football completely and settled into the second team squad. It's a very rare to see this and I can't think of many players where that has happened. I mean...he is still eligible for the U/18's for another two years.

Personally, given his lack of goalscoring history for a forward player, I do not necessarily see anything special in Shoretire. He is a good technical player, obviously mature for his age, but given other players have 'performed' more strongly/effectively in relatively similar circumstances I don't see anything so far that excites me. Certainly his age is a massive factor so the next 2/3 years will be interesting as all his peer group will catch up in terms of pushing into first team reckoning.

Having said all of that...I've been wrong too many times about players to make any predictions and therefore trust the coaches in identifying a players potential and development path. Maybe they already recognise that he plays better with older players, and will come into his own as a late developer. If he does that will be great news...but his goals and assists for a forward player will need to improve dramatically over that period.

Fingers crossed.
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He might not have scored many for the u18s but he scored 69 goals in a season a couple of years ago while playing mostly above his age group so he's definitely capable of it
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Making comparisons is really difficult and as players play in different roles, with different players and are at different stages of development I'm not sure anyone really knows much unless you work with the players every day like the coaches do.

Having said that...given the players mentioned here are some stats.

Rossi only joined us at 17....so it was impossible for him to do any more than he did. We have no idea if he was with us earlier whether he would have played up his age group or not. He arrived at the start of the 2004/05 season, played a two Academy games for us upon his arrival from Parma, scored three goals and was immediately promoted to the Reserves as he was too good for the U/18's. In his first season he scored 20 goals in 31 games. The following year at 18, he scored 30 goals in 29 games for the Reserves. He was different class.

Rashford wasn't getting regular Reserve team football at 17. In 2014/15 when he was 16/17 he played all his football in the U/18's scoring 13 goals in 24 appearances. He didn't feature for the Reserves at all that season. In 2015/16, he was still with the U/18's scoring 7 goals in 13 appearances before moving up the reserves making the odd subs appearance. Rashford only played one full game for the reserves before he was called into the first team due to injuries. In effect, Rashford completely skipped reserve team football.

Both Rossi and Rashford were more physical players as you would expect from strikers. As a consequence their form and development were naturally linked to how many goals they scored.

Greenwood we all know about but played up a level or two most of his junior career.

Gomes was a different player and probably most like Shoretire in terms of position, role, stature and type of player they were.

Gomes started featuring in the U/18's when he was 14 years old and in the 2015/16 season when he was 15 years old played in ten matches. The following season 2016/17 (16 yo) he played in 20 games for the U/18's scoring 12 goals...a ratio better than Rashford's given he was two years younger and not playing up front.

Shoretire made his debut for the U/19's in the 2018/19 season when he was also only 14. He only made one further appearance for the U/18's which was off the bench. Last season, 2019/20, when he was 15 he featured in 16 games for the U/18's scoring 2 goals. This season, at 16, he has appeared solely in the U/23's featuring in 6 games and scoring twice. Thats quite a meteoric rise. Basically, Shoretire has skipped U/18 football completely and settled into the second team squad. It's a very rare to see this and I can't think of many players where that has happened. I mean...he is still eligible for the U/18's for another two years.

Personally, given his lack of goalscoring history for a forward player, I do not necessarily see anything special in Shoretire. He is a good technical player, obviously mature for his age, but given other players have 'performed' more strongly/effectively in relatively similar circumstances I don't see anything so far that excites me. Certainly his age is a massive factor so the next 2/3 years will be interesting as all his peer group will catch up in terms of pushing into first team reckoning.

Having said all of that...I've been wrong too many times about players to make any predictions and therefore trust the coaches in identifying a players potential and development path. Maybe they already recognise that he plays better with older players, and will come into his own as a late developer. If he does that will be great news...but his goals and assists for a forward player will need to improve dramatically over that period.

Fingers crossed.
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I don't see goal scoring record as an important factor for a player like him though. I think historically in England we focus too much on stats and how many goals players score. Iniesta is widely regarded as one of the best players ever, same with Zidane and they never scored many goals as attacking midfielders. Throw David Silva in there among many others. I think Shoretire has that something special in his game, but we won't see it clearly until he's around 18. What he's doing ahead of his age group is unprecedented in the modern era.

We can talk about Giggs, Whiteside etc but comparisons to those days are practically meaningless as the standards at reserve and U18 level are miles ahead of the teams those players came up against in the decades gone by. Rashford was playing as a striker for the U18s so goal scoring record is important for them.
 
jb8521 said:
He might not have scored many for the u18s but he scored 69 goals in a season a couple of years ago while playing mostly above his age group so he's definitely capable of it
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Noticed he's been on the scoresheet a fair bit for England too.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Personally, given his lack of goalscoring history for a forward player, I do not necessarily see anything special in Shoretire.
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Don't you think that it's a little bit unfair to say that based on these 1.5 seasons?
For the majority of the last season he was 15. As you said, Gomes played just 10 games for U-18's when he was 15.
Now, after his first season with U-18's, he goes straight to the U-23's. He only became comfortbale with U-18 level, and now he is challenged to make this big leap and play against U-23's. Of course he would struggle.
I'm sure that if he still played for U-18, he would put the same numbers as 16/17 year-olds Gomes and Marcus did.

16/17 year-old Marcus scored 13 in 24 for U-18's. I think Shola (who is also 16/17 this season) could come close. And you can argue that he is more of a playmaker, whereas Marcus is a forward.
 
I do think all those players were very different despite being attacking midfielders. Shola to me is more similar to an older Marco Reus type of player stylistically. Completely different from Marcus, Mason, and Angel. Angel is more of a midfielder than the rest, which is why he can be played further back and is probably the best in regards to vision, and touch. Mason is the best pure goal scorer. Marcus is more of the winger type who can run at players while scoring. So Shola is more similar to Marcus if anything (if I had to choose).
 
jb8521 said:
He might not have scored many for the u18s but he scored 69 goals in a season a couple of years ago while playing mostly above his age group so he's definitely capable of it
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That's good to know...I've only watched him for three years since he started playing in the U/16's and obviously basing my opinion in what I've seen.

Let's hope his development continues and he brings that type of quality into his play.
 
Prodigal7 said:
I don't see goal scoring record as an important factor for a player like him though. I think historically in England we focus too much on stats and how many goals players score. Iniesta is widely regarded as one of the best players ever, same with Zidane and they never scored many goals as attacking midfielders. Throw David Silva in there among many others. I think Shoretire has that something special in his game, but we won't see it clearly until he's around 18. What he's doing ahead of his age group is unprecedented in the modern era.

We can talk about Giggs, Whiteside etc but comparisons to those days are practically meaningless as the standards at reserve and U18 level are miles ahead of the teams those players came up against in the decades gone by. Rashford was playing as a striker for the U18s so goal scoring record is important for them.
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I'm not sure about your last point. Both those players played against experienced first division footballers and internationals in the reserves. When I was watching the reserves play in the 1980's and 1990's there were loads of incredibly good footballers. If Whiteside and Giggs were playing against some of the defences in the the U/23's now they would have a field day.
 
He shoretire at some point but for now he could be the next Ronaldo or Emile Heskey. The choice is his.
 
In Rainbows said:
I do think all those players were very different despite being attacking midfielders. Shola to me is more similar to an older Marco Reus type of player stylistically. Completely different from Marcus, Mason, and Angel. Angel is more of a midfielder than the rest, which is why he can be played further back and is probably the best in regards to vision, and touch. Mason is the best pure goal scorer. Marcus is more of the winger type who can run at players while scoring. So Shola is more similar to Marcus if anything (if I had to choose).
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Maybe. What I’ve seen from him, he has been less likely to drive against backs with speed, playing on the shoulder, run in behind, or shooting than Rashford, and reminds me more of Gomes in that respect. Though Gomes would often look to play quick short one-two’s, dribble and shoot (and he took PK and FKs) Shoretire seems to more often pull back and centrally, link up play and often playing more through direct long passing to open up play for others, thus reminding me more of players like otherwise very different players like De Bruyne, Veron, Socrates or Strachan.

Mind, that could be a function of his age as well - we saw when Gomes came up to the first team that his dribbling and shooting went awol, probably mainly because the difference in physicality and speed of defenders and reach of keepers meant that what was effective at reserves level was suddenly ineffective, so he chose the passing option much more often instead.

Mr. MUJAC said:
Making comparisons is really difficult and as players play in different roles, with different players and are at different stages of development I'm not sure anyone really knows much unless you work with the players every day like the coaches do.

Having said that...given the players mentioned here are some stats.

Rossi only joined us at 17....so it was impossible for him to do any more than he did. We have no idea if he was with us earlier whether he would have played up his age group or not. He arrived at the start of the 2004/05 season, played a two Academy games for us upon his arrival from Parma, scored three goals and was immediately promoted to the Reserves as he was too good for the U/18's. In his first season he scored 20 goals in 31 games. The following year at 18, he scored 30 goals in 29 games for the Reserves. He was different class.

Rashford wasn't getting regular Reserve team football at 17. In 2014/15 when he was 16/17 he played all his football in the U/18's scoring 13 goals in 24 appearances. He didn't feature for the Reserves at all that season. In 2015/16, he was still with the U/18's scoring 7 goals in 13 appearances before moving up the reserves making the odd subs appearance. Rashford only played one full game for the reserves before he was called into the first team due to injuries. In effect, Rashford completely skipped reserve team football.

Both Rossi and Rashford were more physical players as you would expect from strikers. As a consequence their form and development were naturally linked to how many goals they scored.

Greenwood we all know about but played up a level or two most of his junior career.

Gomes was a different player and probably most like Shoretire in terms of position, role, stature and type of player they were.

Gomes started featuring in the U/18's when he was 14 years old and in the 2015/16 season when he was 15 years old played in ten matches. The following season 2016/17 (16 yo) he played in 20 games for the U/18's scoring 12 goals...a ratio better than Rashford's given he was two years younger and not playing up front.

Shoretire made his debut for the U/19's in the 2018/19 season when he was also only 14. He only made one further appearance for the U/18's which was off the bench. Last season, 2019/20, when he was 15 he featured in 16 games for the U/18's scoring 2 goals. This season, at 16, he has appeared solely in the U/23's featuring in 6 games and scoring twice. Thats quite a meteoric rise. Basically, Shoretire has skipped U/18 football completely and settled into the second team squad. It's a very rare to see this and I can't think of many players where that has happened. I mean...he is still eligible for the U/18's for another two years.

Personally, given his lack of goalscoring history for a forward player, I do not necessarily see anything special in Shoretire. He is a good technical player, obviously mature for his age, but given other players have 'performed' more strongly/effectively in relatively similar circumstances I don't see anything so far that excites me. Certainly his age is a massive factor so the next 2/3 years will be interesting as all his peer group will catch up in terms of pushing into first team reckoning.

Having said all of that...I've been wrong too many times about players to make any predictions and therefore trust the coaches in identifying a players potential and development path. Maybe they already recognise that he plays better with older players, and will come into his own as a late developer. If he does that will be great news...but his goals and assists for a forward player will need to improve dramatically over that period.

Fingers crossed.
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jb8521 said:
He might not have scored many for the u18s but he scored 69 goals in a season a couple of years ago while playing mostly above his age group so he's definitely capable of it
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Thanks for the summaries, interesting reading. I guess you could throw Alex Notman in there as well, to show that scoring at youth/reserves level doesn’t necessarily transfer further up.
What interests me most about Shoretire is - apart from the expectancy Mr Mujac refers to that coaches pitting him consequently against much older players hints to some qualities they see in him that they don’t see in alot of other highly talented 16 year olds - his maturity in looking for options, players, spaces and runs. If his speed, strength, agility, stamina, confidence and concentration develops into that of a grown top athlete (no little ask!), I can see those attributes as highly useful for a team like United.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
I'm not sure about your last point. Both those players played against experienced first division footballers and internationals in the reserves. When I was watching the reserves play in the 1980's and 1990's there were loads of incredibly good footballers. If Whiteside and Giggs were playing against some of the defences in the the U/23's now they would have a field day.
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The standard of football is massively improved since then. Nostalgia tends to corrupt the mind but if you watch those matches back it's plain to see.
 
lenny_1248 said:
Don't you think that it's a little bit unfair to say that based on these 1.5 seasons?
For the majority of the last season he was 15. As you said, Gomes played just 10 games for U-18's when he was 15.
Now, after his first season with U-18's, he goes straight to the U-23's. He only became comfortbale with U-18 level, and now he is challenged to make this big leap and play against U-23's. Of course he would struggle.
I'm sure that if he still played for U-18, he would put the same numbers as 16/17 year-olds Gomes and Marcus did.

16/17 year-old Marcus scored 13 in 24 for U-18's. I think Shola (who is also 16/17 this season) could come close. And you can argue that he is more of a playmaker, whereas Marcus is a forward.
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I've watched him for three seasons. I've never seen him 'struggle'. Technically he is excellent. Particularly given he is 2/3 years younger than everyone else.

For a forward player/attacking midfield player I've just never seen him have a significant impact on a game in the way other players (who have played up a few levels) have done.

I can only base an assessment on what I have seen.
Prodigal7 said:
The standard of football is massively improved since then. Nostalgia tends to corrupt the mind but if you watch those matches back it's plain to see.
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Overall standard of technical proficiency has improved tenfold. I completely agree particularly in midfield.

I still believe the standard of defending has got worse. Most players can't head a ball and tackling is almost a lost art.

Neville and Carragher touch on this most weekends.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
I've watched him for three seasons. I've never seen him 'struggle'. Technically he is excellent. Particularly given he is 2/3 years younger than everyone else.

For a forward player/attacking midfield player I've just never seen him have a significant impact on a game in the way other players (who have played up a few levels) have done.

I can only base an assessment on what I have seen.


Overall standard of technical proficiency has improved tenfold. I completely agree particularly in midfield.

I still believe the standard of defending has got worse. Most players can't head a ball and tackling is almost a lost art.

Neville and Carragher touch on this most weekends.
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Usually I agree with your posts completely. But a couple of points re this thread. You are totally correct Rossi was a different class as a junior, almost everyone who saw him thought he ( along with Pique) were certs for first team places. However it transpires Fergie had other thoughts. Firstly he listened to VdS view that talented as Pique was he would never cut in the EPL. And he told Rossi that he needed to change position to get first team games, Fergie did not believe he had the physical attributes to play striker , but would have played him in a wider or more withdrawn role.
There is 'something' about Shoretire, not sure exactly what, like you say its the coaches who are best placed to judge. But given his stature its unlikely to be centrally as a striker, so perhaps its nothing to do with 'goals'. I have read that the United staff ( presumably including Ole) see him as a real contender for a wide position if he will get it into his head that that is where his future lies. but if he is mentally where Rossi was, its never going to happen.
 
I find Shoretire a really intriguing talent. I've seen that a lot of people lately view him as a number nine. Stephen Howson for instance, sees him as an R9 type of player. I struggle with this, as I think of him as an advanced midfield player. Comparisons with United players of the past and present are always rife with youth players and for me, he reminds me of a more talented version of Lingard. I should probably add, this is by no means meant as an insult.

Perhaps I need to see more of him to judge, but I'm curious as to which position he will 'make his own'. He's very versatile, having played up top, as a 10 and also out wide. A very mature player, with a nice combination of flair, mixed in with good decision making. Not overly indulgent. Certainly an exciting talent.
 
Remember the geese said:
I find Shoretire a really intriguing talent. I've seen that a lot of people lately view him as a number nine. Stephen Howson for instance, sees him as an R9 type of player. I struggle with this, as I think of him as an advanced midfield player. Comparisons with United players of the past and present are always rife with youth players and for me, he reminds me of a more talented version of Lingard. I should probably add, this is by no means meant as an insult.

Perhaps I need to see more of him to judge, but I'm curious as to which position he will 'make his own'. He's very versatile, having played up top, as a 10 and also out wide. A very mature player, with a nice combination of flair, mixed in with good decision making. Not overly indulgent. Certainly an exciting talent.
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It seems to be a trend with our youth players. They prefer the goal scoring glory of a central striker than a role that their skillset is better suited to.
The media is a big reason for this as well IMO, glorifying goals above overall footballing prowess. Neymar for me is a level above Mbappe as a footballer but it's Mbappe who gets more of the plaudits, perhaps for additional non footballing reasons to be fair.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
I've watched him for three seasons. I've never seen him 'struggle'. Technically he is excellent. Particularly given he is 2/3 years younger than everyone else.

For a forward player/attacking midfield player I've just never seen him have a significant impact on a game in the way other players (who have played up a few levels) have done.

I can only base an assessment on what I have seen.


Overall standard of technical proficiency has improved tenfold. I completely agree particularly in midfield.

I still believe the standard of defending has got worse. Most players can't head a ball and tackling is almost a lost art.

Neville and Carragher touch on this most weekends.
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I completely agree on your assessment of Shoretire, he's a bit of a square peg in a round hole, not quick enough for a winger or tricky enough for a playmaker. There's always
Mr. MUJAC said:
I've watched him for three seasons. I've never seen him 'struggle'. Technically he is excellent. Particularly given he is 2/3 years younger than everyone else.

For a forward player/attacking midfield player I've just never seen him have a significant impact on a game in the way other players (who have played up a few levels) have done.

I can only base an assessment on what I have seen.


Overall standard of technical proficiency has improved tenfold. I completely agree particularly in midfield.

I still believe the standard of defending has got worse. Most players can't head a ball and tackling is almost a lost art.

Neville and Carragher touch on this most weekends.
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I agree, to me he's very much a jack of all trades and not a specialist in one particular area.

In the younger age groups we tend to play 4-4-2, so he used to play as a No9 then moved to No10, playing second striker to Mipo at No9 which was probably his best position, however this role is pretty much redundant in modern football.

I also wouldn't much too value on scoring loads of goals in the younger age groups, it's pretty common, also if you can handle it physically there's a definite advantage in playing up as the older team will play better football than your own age group.
 
What's his record like this season in terms of stats?
 
In Rainbows said:
He's largely been anonymous in his u23 performances. I would like to see how he does for the u19s this season.
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That's not what I asked.

Edit: Transfermarkt says 2 goals, 2 assists in 986 mins. Not great but not dreadful for a lad as young as him.
 
He was better since the season started, and his assists and goals came in the last few games, especially since Pellistri involved. Not sure what you are expecting, but it is hard to get some high numbers from 16 years old in U23 team. What I could see, he is not out of place in this team, absolutely deserves his place, playing OK or even better in the last few games. It is all about movement, and keeping the ball when in possession, creating space for wingers that our game is made for. Also we don't have striker in this team (if you dont count 16 years old Hugill as a sub), so Shoretire is more like false 9 recently.
 
I was able to catch a full U23 game after a long time yesterday and I know Diallo and Hugill got all the plaudits, but I thought he played pretty well. His technique is fantastic and he seems a very intelligent player who's aware at all times of his surroundings.
 
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