Any particular reason you believe this? I think in terms of individuals all are quite good, however I feel Costacurta gets the advantage of being part of a well-shielded defence through his career being partnered by players better than him. However, he won't enjoy the same protection here.
Sheep draft - sajeev vs MDFC Manager
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
Any particular reason you believe this? I think in terms of individuals all are quite good, however I feel Costacurta gets the advantage of being part of a well-shielded defence through his career being partnered by players better than him. However, he won't enjoy the same protection here.
Well, you'll hardly enjoy the same protection anywhere if we're talking Baresi and/or Maldini. Ruggeri's a top class defender even in this context.
Plus, Costacurta was hardly brought along for his good looks. He actually formed partnerships with those better players - it wasn't like they carried him.
Given you have Marquez there, I'd give you the edge overall defensively. I rate Irwin over Alaba, easily - but Amoros over Reuter as an overall fullback (clearly better defensively, I'd say). The CB partnerships are very close in terms of quality, too close to call - matter of preference more than anything.
Correct me if i'm wrong,Rivaldo or kaka both love to operate from central areas which means one or other getting into each others way,I agree both are intelligent to move wide occasionally but that doesn't mean you get natural width the touch line wings used to give.
Both teams relay on wing backs to provide width and central area is too much crowded.What edges in favor of MDFC is Zico-Van basten combo, yes i rate Rivaldo-Henry but personal preference especially i like the former duo.
I went for MDFC.
Rivaldo operated from the left usually at the club-level, and across the front for Brazil. He will add much more to the width than anything MDFC has.
I just didn't mean partnering him in defence but also protection in front of the defence playing for both Italy and Milan. Now he has Veron in front of him.
I am in no way saying he is not good enough, but I think he may not be as strong in this set-up
Nah, scratch that, went for sajeev.
What Chester said. I'd rate Ruggeri over McGrath and Bossis=Costacurta. If you bring in Marquez vs Veron, then both defenses become more or less equal in quality imo.
Really tight overall and now I'm reevaluating my vote.
I'm going with Sajeev's team as he has a more balanced setup, overall.
MDFC stating that Vieira will cover for Reuter going forward really gets to me. Vieira isn't a proper defensive midfielder. If anything, he's a proper box-to-box midfielder who's an aggressive ball winner and a threat going forward. His physical prowess and aggressive made him a great ball-winner, and his defensive traits mainly rely on his aggression, strength, and marking. The way he's set up in MDFC's team doesn't suit his skill set, IMO.
I must say that MDFC having van Basten, Zico, and Bergkamp all together make his attack very tasty, incisive, creative, and efficient, but Sajeev does have a solid base to work from with McGrath, Bossis, and Marquez, not to mention that Alaba is also decent, defensively. Of course, Costacurta, Ruggeri, and Irwin shouldn't be underrated, defensively.
However, I don't really like Irwin being stuck to defending. Yes, he was defensively reliable, but that's more down to his great man-marking ability and his ability to track his man. I don't really think he is positionally reliable enough to play a more defensive role. Plus, as a full back, his tendency to mark players can mean that he can get dragged around easier than Billy or Oscar. Plus, given that MDFC is relying on the energy, man-marking ability, and aggression of his midfielders, I believe that this will make things easier for Sajeev's midfield to open things up and disorganise MDFC's midfield shape in defence.
For all of the attention that van Basten, Bergkamp, and Zico are getting, I believe people are forgetting the ability of Henry, Kaka, and Rivaldo to win matches on their own. In particular, Rivaldo and Henry could be effective regardless of what sort of setup they are in. Those who doubt Henry playing up front should realise that he scored tons of goals playing as a striker up front (of course, not as a traditional striker like van Nistelrooy, but with Rivaldo and Kaka around, he wouldn't need to play like that!).
Davids and Seedorf is a lovely midfield combo, and both will work very well together. Whilst Seedorf and Davids offer the bite and aggression that Ardiles and Vieira do, the difference between these pairings is that Davids was better in reading the game and in positioning himself, defensively. Davids would have more awareness of the play around him, and his defensive game would be more controlled than Vieira's.
For now, I'll vote for Sajeev's team, but since it is quite close, overall, I'll give @MDFC Manager a chance to convince me otherwise.
MDFC stating that Vieira will cover for Reuter going forward really gets to me. Vieira isn't a proper defensive midfielder. If anything, he's a proper box-to-box midfielder who's an aggressive ball winner and a threat going forward. His physical prowess and aggressive made him a great ball-winner, and his defensive traits mainly rely on his aggression, strength, and marking. The way he's set up in MDFC's team doesn't suit his skill set, IMO.
I must say that MDFC having van Basten, Zico, and Bergkamp all together make his attack very tasty, incisive, creative, and efficient, but Sajeev does have a solid base to work from with McGrath, Bossis, and Marquez, not to mention that Alaba is also decent, defensively. Of course, Costacurta, Ruggeri, and Irwin shouldn't be underrated, defensively.
However, I don't really like Irwin being stuck to defending. Yes, he was defensively reliable, but that's more down to his great man-marking ability and his ability to track his man. I don't really think he is positionally reliable enough to play a more defensive role. Plus, as a full back, his tendency to mark players can mean that he can get dragged around easier than Billy or Oscar. Plus, given that MDFC is relying on the energy, man-marking ability, and aggression of his midfielders, I believe that this will make things easier for Sajeev's midfield to open things up and disorganise MDFC's midfield shape in defence.
For all of the attention that van Basten, Bergkamp, and Zico are getting, I believe people are forgetting the ability of Henry, Kaka, and Rivaldo to win matches on their own. In particular, Rivaldo and Henry could be effective regardless of what sort of setup they are in. Those who doubt Henry playing up front should realise that he scored tons of goals playing as a striker up front (of course, not as a traditional striker like van Nistelrooy, but with Rivaldo and Kaka around, he wouldn't need to play like that!).
Davids and Seedorf is a lovely midfield combo, and both will work very well together. Whilst Seedorf and Davids offer the bite and aggression that Ardiles and Vieira do, the difference between these pairings is that Davids was better in reading the game and in positioning himself, defensively. Davids would have more awareness of the play around him, and his defensive game would be more controlled than Vieira's.
For now, I'll vote for Sajeev's team, but since it is quite close, overall, I'll give @MDFC Manager a chance to convince me otherwise.
I agree with your first point regarding Bergkamp. But then again, Bergkamp was no slouch and his sense of space is an excellent fit too, in my tactical context.
Coming to the more important point about Veron. Like I mentioned in my tactical write-up, he certainly won't be burdened with all the defensive work. As I mentioned, the lack of a specialized DM means I've instructed both of Vieira and Ardiles to help out in defensive tasks whenever possible. That's the advantage of having these two high work rate players flanking Veron.
I completely agree the Vieira isn't a proper DM, which is exactly why he isn't playing there in my team. But I think you're overplaying my tactic of him covering for Reuter. What exactly is wrong with that? Reuter isn't going to spend the entire game in the oppositions half. Its only when he does venture forward, Vieira has to cover for him. Its just a tactical detail, similar to a defensive winger covering for whenever an attacking fullback overlaps. This is just a part of his responsibility, his primary one being to cover large areas of the pitch, using exactly what you called his strength: his aggression, strength and marking.
I will look into giving Irwin a little more of freedom but you have to understand why I'm setup like that. With Irwin having limited offensive responsibilities, I actually think it helps me give a bit more balance to the defense, as it covers really well for the lack of a dedicated DM.
Vieira can only cover large areas of the pitch if he has a defensively reliable midfield partner beside him. Vieira was always at his best when he had Petit and, later on, Gilberto Silva alongside him. Both provided great defensive cover and allowed Vieira to play to his strengths. In your setup, you don't really have such a player, which is why I feel like your midfield may lose its defensive shape and organisation once Sajeev's team gets into its game. Even AC Milan's great team in the 21st century filled with aggressive midfielders needed a holding player in Ambrosini to provide them a solid defensive foundation in midfield.
Now, this is where you factor in your decision to play Irwin as a more defensive, old-school full back, but I don't believe he really has the skill set for that role that someone like Bossis possessed.
I agree about Vieira, again, but the teams you're referring to, did they not play regular 4-4-2's? Point being, here in my setup, he may not have a dedicated DM, but he doesn't need one either IMO. You have a point, but like I said earlier, you're really overplaying it. Its not as if its a 2 man Veron-Vieira pairing. Then there's the issue of Veron himself, who I feel you're underrating too. Yes, he's not really a DM, but its not like he's some kind of no mark defensively. He can and has gotten himself about defensively, in 2-men midfields. Here he has even more cover.
It's almost impossible for me to separate the teams. I'd give sajeev a slight tactical advantage, but I don't buy that Marquez is the difference maker. While Veron doesn't play in his best role, his presence will cause some problems in midfield in a way Marquez can't and it makes up for the tactical disadvantage in my book, because he's simply too good of a player to ignore. He's an excellent passer through the middle and doesn't necessarily need wide players at the receiving end. He's no passenger when it comes to defending either and poses a threat with long range shots from midfield that can make a difference in a game like this and that none of Seedorf, Davids or Marquez can match.
Both teams lack width in my opinion, it's maybe slightly less of an issue for sajeev, but I don't see Henry and Rivaldo complementing each other well enough in their movement to actually make use of it and exploit a small advantage down the wings, so it all goes down to a central battle with few chances and van Basten is more clinical than anyone sajeev has in his team and Zico is the one player between all those great attackers on show here, who excelled playing a such a congested central area. Voted for MDFC in the end.
Both teams lack width in my opinion, it's maybe slightly less of an issue for sajeev, but I don't see Henry and Rivaldo complementing each other well enough in their movement to actually make use of it and exploit a small advantage down the wings, so it all goes down to a central battle with few chances and van Basten is more clinical than anyone sajeev has in his team and Zico is the one player between all those great attackers on show here, who excelled playing a such a congested central area. Voted for MDFC in the end.
We can see here how even this match is by looking at the voters, about half the usual voters and drafts vets(like Fergus' son, isotope, TITO etc.) voted for Sajeev, whereas the other half went for MDFC(Gio, Theon, Crappy).
Manager votes seem to be pretty even too, Sajeev with 5(if you don't include Mazhar), when MDFC has 5(if you don't include Balu).
Great matchup lads.
Manager votes seem to be pretty even too, Sajeev with 5(if you don't include Mazhar), when MDFC has 5(if you don't include Balu).
Great matchup lads.
17-17 now. This game really deserves to be decided by a penalty shoot-out 
Current score reflects pretty much how I think - it's a tough one.
On balance I've gone with Sajeev on the basis that I think his team's weaknesses aren't as well exposed as the other way round.
On balance I've gone with Sajeev on the basis that I think his team's weaknesses aren't as well exposed as the other way round.
17-17 now. This game really deserves to be decided by a penalty shoot-out
18-17 now :P.
Can I know what weaknesses you are referring to?
Pens it is.
another hour to go
Bossis = Costacurta? Le Grand Max? Interesting.
Agree on Ruggeri though. If I had to come up with the best team merging these two he and van Basten would be the dead certs to join sajeev. Nobody else really.
I don't really think Zico works all that well with van Basten, Zico was used to more expansive teams and usually had a "lesser" striker ahead of him who would accommodate his runs into the box as a priority.
XMAS tree setups with no wide men aren't your average classic No. 10 fodder, and sajeev has specialists there who actually did that trident job at the highest level (winning a World Cup and CL, no less).
17-17 now. This game really deserves to be decided by a penalty shoot-out
It's tight, as expected. Didn't I tell you that straight off the bat after the draw? "Poor Sajeev, all the tactical nuances work in his favour but people will just vote van Basten > Henry".
Anyhow, not voting here, don't want to create any sort of acrimonious fallout. Both managers have done very well arguing their cases.
Hey! Who's feckin around here?! We want pens!
That's a fair and reasonable assumption. It's par for the course that the nearest central midfielder tucks in when the full-back goes on his adventures up the park - it offers both a perfect triangular passing option and defensive solidity. Even more so here with Rivaldo loitering in that area.
Well I agree there and I'd struggle to think of a time that a Davids and Seedorf midfield didn't run the show. They were golden for Ajax in the mid-1990s and especially for Holland in 1998 and 2000. Vieira's no mug though, he was one of the stars of the 2006 World Cup, shone at Euro 2000 and, even accounting for an average-by-this-standards set of CL performances, has done enough through his Arsenal career against some top central midfielders to justify his reputation.
That's precisely my point. How it can be perceived as a negative towards Vieira is beyond me. Its standard tactical remit, especially for a side midfielder in a diamond.
The other thing that is really irking me is the width debate. That debate would actually hold water if I was facing touchline hugging, pacy wingers. This isn't the case at all and I still don't see why that seems to have gone against me from the voters perspective. This just seems be nitpicking, without giving thoughts to my actual tactical setup.
You aren't allowed to vote anyway. You had way too much influence in sajeev's team to accept you as a neutral here.
Not weaknesses per-say. Just "less strengths" lol.
Ultimately the two things I thought of is while your defence is good, I think Henry is almost a perfect type of player to play against it.
I think Veron will struggle to contain a Kaka and Rivaldo at their peak defensively.
I think sajeev's biggest weakness defensively is down the flank and his strength defensively is in the middle, which plays to your team almost perfectly.
You've got a brilliant team mate, no question about it.
I'm not sure that's true. Seedorf performed great for such a young player at Ajax, but he also left shortly after his 19th birthday and was quite easily replaced. Both Davids and Rijkaard ran the show for Ajax and Seedorf fit in well, nothing more in my opinion. Seedorf also was surprisingly underwhelming for the nationalteam and heavily criticised for never showing his club form when playing for his country. In theory Seedorf's peak on club level next to Davids is a brilliant combination, so no need to change it at all in this draft. But if he actually brought his best to the nationalteam in 1998 or 2000, Holland might have won one of those two tournaments.
I suppose the other thing is you don't really want Vieira charging forward through the middle into the opposition box, both teams are set up narrow enough as it is.
Just to make a last push for votes and to clarify things about my setup
I'm not playing a high defensive line. In such a case, if its his fullbacks that are actually providing width, it doesn't bother me at all. They arent Cafu and Carlos and if their gameplan is to swing crosses in, Ruggeri and Costacurta will deal with that all day long. If Rivaldo and Kaka are the ones providing width, its the same thing with crosses. If they are going to cut in and shoot, fair play, that is likely to happen against any defensive lineup. I don't see how this can be put as an argument to support that he has more/better width.
About the midfield, again, there seems to be some sort of fascination about dedicated DMs. I've already specified that Veron isn't the DM in this setup either. He WONT be saddled with dealing with both Rivaldo and Kaka. One of them is supposedly going to be providing width apparently, so why would Veron get involved anyway? Ardiles and Vieira are chosen as the side midfielders to put in that defensive shift, which a DM would have taken care of otherwise. Instead of a negative, I actually see it as a positive; the defensive work being shared, instead of it all being put on the shoulders of a dedicated DM.
Lastly, the Bergkamp free role is there to counteract his fullbacks getting too far forward, as well as giving Marquez an additional forward to deal with. In this case, Marquez is actually the DM, unlike Veron in mine.
I'm not playing a high defensive line. In such a case, if its his fullbacks that are actually providing width, it doesn't bother me at all. They arent Cafu and Carlos and if their gameplan is to swing crosses in, Ruggeri and Costacurta will deal with that all day long. If Rivaldo and Kaka are the ones providing width, its the same thing with crosses. If they are going to cut in and shoot, fair play, that is likely to happen against any defensive lineup. I don't see how this can be put as an argument to support that he has more/better width.
About the midfield, again, there seems to be some sort of fascination about dedicated DMs. I've already specified that Veron isn't the DM in this setup either. He WONT be saddled with dealing with both Rivaldo and Kaka. One of them is supposedly going to be providing width apparently, so why would Veron get involved anyway? Ardiles and Vieira are chosen as the side midfielders to put in that defensive shift, which a DM would have taken care of otherwise. Instead of a negative, I actually see it as a positive; the defensive work being shared, instead of it all being put on the shoulders of a dedicated DM.
Lastly, the Bergkamp free role is there to counteract his fullbacks getting too far forward, as well as giving Marquez an additional forward to deal with. In this case, Marquez is actually the DM, unlike Veron in mine.
Correct, this is why Ardiles drifts wide, not forward. I wouldn't mind Vieira doing it on the occasions that Reuters is sitting behind.
I don't agree with the Veron point for the reasons I gave 2 posts above
In any case, Veron is being portrayed as a defensive mug, which he wasn't by any means. On the opposite side, Marquez isn't going to have too much joy containing peak Zico & Bergkamp either.Yes I'm guilty of over-crediting Seedorf there. Davids was the clear leader of Holland's midfield in 1998 and 2000 and it was Cocu and Ronald De Boer who were the nearest performers. Seedorf was a decent cog in the system, but his presence wasn't really missed when Davids ran the show against Argentina and Brazil in those great battles in 1998. But certainly that Ajax vintage and Holland's 1998/2000 midfield almost invariably dominated whoever they came up against.
Aand as I replied back then, the gap between van Basten and Henry is significant
Crosses aren't always aimed at headers. In fact, one of the most dangerous kinds of crosses is low across the face of goal, sometimes even making OG show up. And we all know this of course.
Not sure why width tends to be depicted as only relevant if there's a big striker or short defenders, it's about stretching the play and opening up space for attacking players to operate in.
Who was it that jumped sides at 18-18, without providing any explanations?
FWIW I think you've argued this point brilliantly. What you say here makes perfect sense.
If there's an issue - of sorts - with Veron, it would be what anto touched on above, namely that his greatest strength is arguably a bit wasted here, given the lack of dedicated wide men. His pin point, long range passing isn't something you can obviously use to your advantage here - although it will certainly come in handy if and when either Reuter or Ossie makes a run down the wing.
Defensively, the plan is sound. People seem to overlook the actual prowess of Vieira and Ossie - who are more than capable of doing precisely what you expect them to do here.
Just getting back to this from yesterday. I have no idea why you named me there, when at no point did I say that both of sajeevs will be attacking.
About the first point, you're right, however I still don't see his fullbacks getting that much joy in getting too many crosses in with any regularity.