Sheep Draft R1: MJJ/GodShaveTheQueen vs. 2mufc0 - Voting closed

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


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Yes because we felt that ederson was at the same level as de gea/casillas so we would rather use his unique skill set in a direct, possession football setup as an additional weapon.
Apart from Jennings decision your set up is spot on.

That midfield is fantastic, especially having Nedved working his socks off wide.

I'd buy the Kempes/Baggio link up and dynamics, just not sure if your front three has enough goals in them to outscore the opposition.

That Baggio vs Ayala seems good route to goal.
 
Went for 2mufc as that's a more balanced side for me. The midfield 3 is very complimentary while the two wide players in Hristo and Robben will gel excellently with Sheva, all of them offer a lot of pace and directness as well as versatility to score and create for each other. It's a very lethal trio full of goals and creativity with Didi the clear orchestrator pulling the strings.

Think MJJs side is far too midfield heavy. Nedved as a wide forward in a false 9 formation isn't ideal, as he was an all action midfielder at his peak be it centrally or on either side. He will naturally drop into the midfield battle where his strengths are best utilised as opposed to playing off the shoulder of the defenders and making runs behind. Similar for Kempes, his peak was in a role that required him to put in heavy shifts in midfield and he was again an all action work-horse and is unlikely to constantly be making darting runs behind the defense. Baggio himself playing as a false 9 means he will be dropping deeper which correlates most of his career as well as a proper #10. All this would leave the team a bit toothless and blunt up front, with not enough bodies making use of the creativity and passing from midfield.

Think the game would end in Xavi and co. keeping a lot of possession and movement in midfield but not finding enough penetration while the opposition has the tools to hit them on the counter enough times to tilt the score.

Two excellent teams otherwise, unfortunate to meet this early.

To be fair, Spain won a Euro with a 4-6-0.

And this team has way many more scorers as compared to them starting with Fabregas upfront and Iniesta/Silva outwide.

Kempes and Baggio played so many roles in so many positions throughout their career, it's very easy for them to adjust. Their goals scoring numbers are pretty good (incomparable to Spain 2012). I don't need to post them, a quick wiki search should clear that.

Van Hanegem had plenty of goals in him, Passarella had plenty, Bonhof would often chip in with a few and Nedved had his fair share if not an unbelievable number. We don't expect him to play a wide forward, he is going to do a bit of everything, everywhere. We don't expect him to perform like Kalle. You can't say he can't do what we are asking of him or that there are many better in history at doing that.

Edit: I am done with my allowed post count for the day. So am out :lol:
 
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To be fair, Spain won a Euro with a 4-6-0.

And this team has way many more scorers as compared to them starting with Fabregas upfront and Iniesta/Silva outwide.

Kempes and Baggio played so many roles in so many positions throughout their career, it's very easy for them to adjust. Their goals scoring numbers are pretty good (incomparable to Spain 2012). I don't need to post them, a quick wiki search should clear that.

Van Hanegem had plenty of goals in him, Passarella had plenty, Bonhof would often chip in with a few and Nedved had his fair share if not an unbelievable number. We don't expect him to play a wide forward, he is going to a bit of everything everywhere. We don't expect him to perform like Kalle. You can't say he can't do what we are asking of him or that there are many better in history at doing that.
Firstly you aren't playing in Euro 2012, this is a fantasy matchup and the opposition is a different proposition altogether.

As far as goalscoring is concerned, there are a lot of supporting/secondary goalscorers there, and I didn't mean that your team would never be able to score, but someone like Nedved as a wide forward while not bad by any means, is not ideal for me in terms of bringing the best out of a false 9 and a creative engine behind him in terms of providing penetration into the penalty box.

Baggio often played with not just one but two strikers ahead of him, that provided the balance in terms of players who would drop into midfield and ones who would occupy defenders or making forward runs. Ideally that balance could have been better with more direct goalscorers better utilising the creativity around them. You even have Bonhof at right back who would spend time joining the midfield. It will get a bit too congested at times especially that right flank.

Like I said otherwise in terms of quality both teams look excellent, so 2mufc getting the balance of the team correct played a part in the outcome of the game.
 
Bonhof at right back?
He played as a right and left wingback and played as a man-marking center back before. I'd hazard a guess that he probably played as a fullback as well, he was very versatile. He is a good fit for Pep's false fullback role, but I'm not sure that this flank will be able to neutralise Stoichkov.
 
Also with Xavi in that midfield, WVH seems like the spare wheel, not sure what he offers in terms of variance in that midfield.
To be honest, I have a weird feeling about both midfields. Despite his fearsome appearance, Effenberg wasn't really a box-to-box engine — he was a playmaker first and foremost, although he was capable of making a few crunching tackles along the way. And I think someone like Davids would've been a better fit for Didi here.

Same is true for van Hanegem and Xavi — they'll work together, but they won't be at their best.
 
Ederson needs one more year to be a proper all-time keeper but what a keeper he is! Comfortably the best passer i ever saw between keepers, feck id have him as one of the best passers in the league, players included. Its like having a Scholes in goal....
 
To be honest, I have a weird feeling about both midfields. Despite his fearsome appearance, Effenberg wasn't really a box-to-box engine — he was a playmaker first and foremost, although he was capable of making a few crunching tackles along the way. And I think someone like Davids would've been a better fit for Didi here.

Same is true for van Hanegem and Xavi — they'll work together, but they won't be at their best.
Van Hanegem used to play with plenty of playmakers in that Dutch side. Not sure why that midfield isn't getting much appreciation, especially shielded by Varela.
 


@Indnyc
Watch this.

Starts at RWB and keep popping into the midfield. That is the exact role we want him to play, the mochengladbach side of the 70s was very much a total footballing sides with players popping up all over the placep


He played as a right and left wingback and played as a man-marking center back before. I'd hazard a guess that he probably played as a fullback as well, he was very versatile. He is a good fit for Pep's false fullback role, but I'm not sure that this flank will be able to neutralise Stoichkov.

Thanks. I'll take a look at the video.. Will vote after reading some of the comments
 
Van Hanegem used to play with plenty of playmakers in that Dutch side. Not sure why that midfield isn't getting much appreciation, especially shielded by Varela.
In this case it's not the playmaking that concerns me (although the only other "real" playmaker in that Dutch side was Cruyff, I won't call Neeskens/Haan/Rensenbrink etc. playmakers), but rather their completely different views on the game. Uber-controlling and rational Xavi and flamboyant van Hanegem.

And, as I said, I think that both Xavi/van Hanegem and Effenberg/Didi partnerships would work, but I wouldn't call either ideal.
 
Apart from Jennings decision your set up is spot on.

That midfield is fantastic, especially having Nedved working his socks off wide.

I'd buy the Kempes/Baggio link up and dynamics, just not sure if your front three has enough goals in them to outscore the opposition.

That Baggio vs Ayala seems good route to goal.
Hmm I remember you slagging Wvh off whenever I had him in my team for lack of mobility and with Xavi as his partner who wasn't that mobile either so not sure how you think his setup is 'spot on'.

Also if Ayala is seen as a weakness what about Hulshoff? Furthermore, Baggio is operating as a false 9 so it will mostly be Voronin who will be picking him up and at the back Nesta will be on the left hand side where Baggio like to operate. So Ayala vs Baggio won't happen that often.

Furthermore I haven't seen any evidence yet that Baggio ever played false 9. He was a direct player who came from deep/wide and played with centre forward his whole career.
 
Hmm I remember you slagging Wvh off whenever I had him in my team for lack of mobility and with Xavi as his partner who wasn't that mobile either so not sure how you think his setup is 'spot on'.
He does lack the mobility, but MJJ is playing possession type of football where van Hanegem is the highest midfielder on the pitch(most likely), whilst I think you had him in a box to box role with only Monti at the base from memory? If he was in Xavi's position behind a #10 again there would be issues IMO, despite Varela being superior in the defensive phase to Monti.

In this 4-3-3 it's Xavi who would most likely do more in the defensive phase and be in deeper position compared to Van Hanegem.

Also if Ayala is seen as a weakness what about Hulshoff? Furthermore, Baggio is operating as a false 9 so it will mostly be Voronin who will be picking him up and at the back Nesta will be on the left hand side where Baggio like to operate. So Ayala vs Baggio won't happen that often.

Furthermore I haven't seen any evidence yet that Baggio ever played false 9. He was a direct player who came from deep/wide and played with centre forward his whole career.

Hulshoff is a problem of course in all time sense and quality wise you can easily upgrade him. I like MJJ's use of defence around Passarella and Varela minding the gaps left by him when he goes forward.

You have a viable route to goal in Sheva attacking that space and Stoichkov against Bonhof.

On the other side MJJ has also 2 viable routes to goal in Nedved vs Alaba and Baggio against Ayala.

I'm not sure Hapgood is good enough on his own to stop Robben either, so my vote isn't final and will follow up the discussion.
 
Hmm I remember you slagging Wvh off whenever I had him in my team for lack of mobility and with Xavi as his partner who wasn't that mobile either so not sure how you think his setup is 'spot on'.

Also if Ayala is seen as a weakness what about Hulshoff? Furthermore, Baggio is operating as a false 9 so it will mostly be Voronin who will be picking him up and at the back Nesta will be on the left hand side where Baggio like to operate. So Ayala vs Baggio won't happen that often.

Furthermore I haven't seen any evidence yet that Baggio ever played false 9. He was a direct player who came from deep/wide and played with centre forward his whole career.

Will respond to the rest later as at work but Hulshoff has a very good record against some of the best strikers of all time, similarly, Ayala's record against Baggio is horrible. You can even see the video I posted where he makes a mockery of him and thats not even the match in which he scored a hattrick and had an assist.

Secondly, nedved will torch alaba through out this match, having nesta on the left-hand side is a weakness imo. If voronin starts tracking baggio, the match is over as my midfield will run circles around yours.
 
He does lack the mobility, but MJJ is playing possession type of football where van Hanegem is the highest midfielder on the pitch(most likely), whilst I think you had him in a box to box role with only Monti at the base from memory? If he was in Xavi's position behind a #10 again there would be issues IMO, despite Varela being superior in the defensive phase to Monti.

In this 4-3-3 it's Xavi who would most likely do more in the defensive phase and be in deeper position compared to Van Hanegem.



Hulshoff is a problem of course in all time sense and quality wise you can easily upgrade him. I like MJJ's use of defence around Passarella and Varela minding the gaps left by him when he goes forward.

You have a viable route to goal in Sheva attacking that space and Stoichkov against Bonhof.

On the other side MJJ has also 2 viable routes to goal in Nedved vs Alaba and Baggio against Ayala.

I'm not sure Hapgood is good enough on his own to stop Robben either, so my vote isn't final and will follow up the discussion.
Nope I never played Wvh as a B2B, imo he's a very similar player in terms of style as Xavi, I don't see any penetration from his midfield. I really fancy Sheva and Hristo's chances on the weak right side of theirs. And as mentioned before don't buy Baggio as a gals 9. Also Ederson needs to be placed on the right level here, but it seems nobody cares about goal keepers in these drafts.

Also I don't think they are playing a Barca possession style on the op it talks a lot about pressing and taking inspiration from Klopp.
 
Nope I never played Wvh as a B2B, imo he's a very similar player in terms of style as Xavi, I don't see any penetration from his midfield. I really fancy Sheva and Hristo's chances on the weak right side of theirs. And as mentioned before don't buy Baggio as a gals 9. Also Ederson needs to be placed on the right level here, but it seems nobody cares about goal keepers in these drafts.

Also I don't think they are playing a Barca possession style on the op it talks a lot about pressing and taking inspiration from Klopp.
Think @MJJ mentioned there isn't much difference in the defensive approach they are employing here to the Barca pressing, so perhaps he can clarify that. I'd buy van Hanegem in this formation with two midfielders behind him(a bit like the Iniesta role), but with only one next to him, he has to be a runner. Xavi and Varela could compensate in the defensive phase and generally that triangle I can see working.

I can see your point on Baggio and probably it will be him feeding off Kempes who would attack the box more often in this match up, whilst Baggio dropping deeper. There isn't a #10 so Baggio would have space to do his thing here.

I don't buy Ederson as all time material either. He was pretty poor in CL for Benfica and apart from his on ball skills I struggle to see his other qualities in all time sense.
 
We want to tell a story about Hulshoff's career and the context around it in the totality and not just limit it to a few quotes or lines as he is quite obviously not well known here.

And to get the whole picture and if you indeed have an interest in knowing more about him before making your decision in this/any game he features here, or want to pick him in the future, you need to read this in the full.

A great player is underrated in general around worlds football and not just on this forum because an injury kept him out from quite possibly the greatest sporting moment that could have been for his country and diminished his legacy to a quite apparent extent.

This is why we haven't bold-ed any part of the article. Read it during the match or later, but do give it a shot in full. Its quite well written and one that should be heard at least from hardcore draft enthusiasts.
 
The 1974 World Cup and the missing piece in Holland’s almost ‘totaalvoetbal’

hulshoff.jpg


The Olympiastdion in Munich on 7th July 1974. On a seasonably warm Bavarian afternoon, the coronation of Holland’s ‘Oranje’ was expected. Rinus Michel’s team had scorched the the pitches of West Germany with the vivid bright flame of their football. The ‘Cruyff turn’ had been born when Sweden’s Olssen, bamboozled by the Dutchman’s manoeuvre not only had to buy a ticket to get back into the stadium, he also needed a taxi to get back there, so far had he been sent the wrong way. A Brazil squad, shorn of Pele for the first time in a generation had eschewed their ‘jogo bonita’ for a style some called pragmatic, others called brutal. In a beauty and the beast contest however, the Dutch had eliminated the reigning champions. Whilst the Dutch masters created flowing football with the panache of an artist, the Brazilians were cutlass-wielding barbarians in comparison. Wherever they were when they saw the performance, the souls of the ‘Pearl,’ Gerson and Tostao would surely have been uneasy.

And so to the final on that July day, with Holland facing hosts and reigning European Champions, West Germany. For the Dutch, there could hardly have been more fitting opponents to share their moment of history. All seemed well when Cruyff picked up the ball in a left back position before slaloming through the German midfield and defence until upended by his nominal marker Berti Vogts on the edge of the penalty area. Neeskens duly despatched the spot kick and when Sepp Maier picked the ball out of the net, it was the first time a German had touched the ball since English referee Jack Taylor had blown to start the game. The Dutch were in their pomp and spent the next minutes as if elegantly considering a menu of delicious alternatives to pick apart their prey. Self-indulgence and success however are never easy bedfellows.

Perhaps the Germans responded well, perhaps the Dutch got lost in their own swagger, but whichever was the case, the orange-shirted defenders, when asked to protect their goal, came up short. Firstly, Breitner converted the second penalty of the game when Holzenbein was brought down and then Muller performed his party piece. The master poacher produced a reverse shot from just inside the area and and ‘keeper Jongbloed’s tame effort waved the ball past him into the net. The spell was broken. The revolution had died. Football’s counter-culture had seemingly blown itself out, with an Icarus-like tendency to self-destruct. They had flown too close to the sun and their wings of wax had melted.

The second half was a series of orange waves battering away at the German defence marshalled by the Bayern Munich pairing of the elegant Beckenbauer and the robust Schwarzenbeck. Often the Dutch had merely left the tousle-haired Wim Jensen as the lone sentinel to deal with any German breaks. It was all to nought however, and as the final whistle blew it was West Germany’s trophy, and the Dutch had only a heroic failure and perhaps a tale of what might have been.

The Ajax and Dutch teams of the early seventies came to prominence and showed a way of painting the beautiful game that defines how it should be done. For some it was the Hungarians of the fifties; for others, the Brazil of the sixties. Perhaps others again would take as the template the Spain team that dominated world football until Brazil 2014. Back then however, it was Ajax and Holland. And this is where the missing piece slots in.

Barry Hulshoff was a titan of a player. Mop-haired and bearded with the trademark socks around his ankles, bereft of shin pads. He had worked his way into the Ajax team under Michels, although it was always an uneasy relationship. Hulshoff’s personality was much like his playing style, individual and with a spirit abounding to perform the extraordinary. Take a look at Youtube and type in his name. There are numerous videos of him playing for Ajax in European Cup encounters against teams such as Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Inter Milan. Take a picture of Rio Ferdinand at his best, add in the passing ability of Steven Gerarrd, sprinkle in the determination and power of John Terry, with a dash of the shooting power of Cristiano Ronaldo, and you have an idea of his prowess. The Ajax libero donned in white with the broad red stripe on his shirt strode around the pitch, like some giant out to right the wrongs of the game.

With three European Cup victories already to his name, Hulshoff was the complete article when the 1974 tournament rolled around. Victory in 1971 at Wembley against Panathinaikos saw him diminish the Greek’s main threat by shackling the tall Antoniadis, rendering the tactic of high balls to the striker ineffective. The following year, the defensively-choking approach of Inter Milan was defeated, again with a clean sheet for Hulshoff and his team-mates. Finally, in 1973, another Italian side were beaten as La Vecchia Signora of Juventus also failed to register a goal against the Dutch defence; this time under the coaching of Stefan Kovacs, as Michels had decamped to the Nou Camp and Barcelona. The creator of totaalvoetbal was however to return three months ahead of the World Cup to take charge of the Dutch team. At 27 years of age, tutored in the ethos of Ajax, Hulshoff was primed to play a full part in delivering the ultimate prize in world football to the Netherlands. It was to be the highest of high sporting points for the Low Countries.

As the jigsaw pieces fell onto the table when the squad assembled in West Germany however, one was missing. Hulshoff had suffered a serious knee injury, that would rule him out of the tournament. It was, in fact, an injury from which he never truly recovered. Faced with the dilemma of losing the dominating presence of Ajax libero, the Dutch faced a major issue. Feyenoord’s Rinus Israel would have been the obvious replacement, but ironically, a series of knee operations following repeated injuries had rendered serious doubts about his fitness. Michels would be moved to include him anyway, as a back-up plan. There was also talk of Hulshoff’s Ajax central defensive partner Horst Blankenburg being approached. The problem, however, was that Blankenburg was German. Nevertheless, as the player had never represented his homeland, and with Beckenbauer there, such a development was unlikely, the Dutch were prepared to fast-track nationality papers through if he was minded to take up the offer. Blankenburg refused however.

With the search for a libero proving increasing difficult, Michels opted for a solution that would be replicated by Pep Guardiola twenty-odd years later. When faced with the loss of Carles Puyol, the Blaugrana manager chose to deploy midfielder Javier Mascherano alongside Gerard Pique. In a similar approach, Michels decided to play Arie Haan as the libero, and paired him with the young Rijsbergen. Krol and Suurbier would be the nominal full backs. It was a gamble on Haan being able to utilise an undoubted game nous to fill any gaps in his defensive technique, alongside a relatively inexperienced partner.

The plan seemed to be performing exceptionally well as the Dutch cruised to the final with only a single goal conceded, and that a Ruud Krol own goal against a Bulgaria team already well-beaten at the time. The flip side of that was of course that the defence had hardly been tested. The Dutch attacking play had dominated and disheartened to such an extent that opponents had hardly seemed capable of threatening the Oranje back line. Against West Germany however, that would not be the case.

In that vital period of the latter part of the first half however, after Neeskens had scored and the Dutch had spent some time admiring themselves in the mirror, when Germany first equalised then took the lead, would the presence of the talismanic Hulshoff have made their task more difficult? It surely would. Would it have changed the dynamic of the game? Probably, but how far? In the second period, with the Dutch repeatedly poured forward, would the pace, power and presence of the six foot odd Hulshoff have given an added edge to the attack, especially when balls were loaded into the box? It’s difficult to think that ‘no’ is the answer.

Arie Haan was a superb player and in the 1978 World Cup, his distance shooting was to embarrass both Maier and the veteran Italian ‘keeper Dino Zoff as a weaker Dutch team again lost in the final to the hosts; this time Argentina. He would however surely never claim to be a sustainable replacement for the presence of Hulshoff. In any game against as canny a performer as Gerd Muller, a defensive weakness was always likely to be exposed, and in the final analysis, this is why the Dutch came up short in Munich.

It would be wrong to say that a football ethos died that day in July 1974, but certainly a little of the romance did. Jack Kerouac, the American author, rebel and co-founder of the Beat Generation once declared: “My fault, my failure, is not in the passions I have, but in my lack of control of them.” It’s not a bad description of the Dutch national team of the seventies, for ever ‘On the Road’ as it were, but never quite arriving. This is of course to not to decry the German triumph. On the day, the best team probably won. It just wasn’t the team that most people wanted as World Champions. It wasn’t how it was meant to be.

I don’t know where Barry Hulshoff was when he saw the denouement of the tournament, and Beckanbauer lifted the trophy that may have been in Dutch hands, had he been there. After a scandalously meagre fourteen Dutch caps, with six goals from centre back, Hulshoff’s is a story not of what might have, but what should have been. Without him the story of Dutch totaal voetbal, was somewhat less than complete. It’s often said that, in rock music, to die young is a good career move. The same can be said in literature. Karouac’s approach to life and his art has reflections on the Dutch approach to football. The magic era of Oranje may not hold the romance it does if they had won the World Cup. It’s difficult to be defined as rebellious when you become the establishment,

Any picture portrayed in a jigsaw puzzle with a missing piece can never be anything but frustrating, not because it is poorer without it, but because with it, it could have been perfect. Falling one step short of the title however can be both rewarding and frustrating. Being a “people’s champion” is fine, but dining at the top table is surely the ultimate reward. Had Hulshoff not suffered that knee injury and instead taken his allotted place in the Dutch team on that day in Munich, the history of football could have been very different. Without him, the Oranje was incomplete and the totaalvoetbal just wasn’t.[/QUOTE]
 
Think @MJJ mentioned there isn't much difference in the defensive approach they are employing here to the Barca pressing, so perhaps he can clarify that. I'd buy van Hanegem in this formation with two midfielders behind him(a bit like the Iniesta role), but with only one next to him, he has to be a runner. Xavi and Varela could compensate in the defensive phase and generally that triangle I can see working.

I can see your point on Baggio and probably it will be him feeding off Kempes who would attack the box more often in this match up, whilst Baggio dropping deeper. There isn't a #10 so Baggio would have space to do his thing here.

I don't buy Ederson as all time material either. He was pretty poor in CL for Benfica and apart from his on ball skills I struggle to see his other qualities in all time sense.

That is correct, I mean iker wasn't that good of a keeper either. Also, I will compare the goal scoring record of the two sides when I am home but I am pretry sure my sife will come up on top.
 
He really isn't on the same level with De Gea. Personally I don't rate Casillas that high individually. He was world class during his time but in all time sense I'd be hard pressed to put him in the top 20, where Jennings no doubt stands.

Ederson is way too early in his career path to be judged in all time sense. As a pure goalkeeper I'd rather have Oblak from the younger generation.

To me Ederson hasn't proven yet to be as good as Casillas and here 2mufc0 shades it.

Jennings was a phenomenal keeper who was always very dependable, he was very good with his feet and his kicking had great distance, even scored against United in one of the cups.

Sure Ederson as a pure sweeper keeper is better than all mentioned (including De Gea), but in terms of aerial ability, goalkeeper skills, reflexes, Jennings is on another level.
This.
 
Struggling to vote here. MJJ and GSTQ team looks better on paper, but I'm struggling to see how it will actually work on the field.

2mufc0s side is easier to envisage but there's a couple of players I don't personally rate too highly. Will watch this one a bit longer before voting.
 
I don't mind Baggio as a false 9, although I'd probably prefer @2mufc0's wide forwards next to him. Might have been more natural with Baggio playing next to / off Kempes leading the line, with Nedved playing his roaming Juventus role. Problem is where Pavel goes on the teamsheet, but I think that would have been the cleaner set-up. Like @Physiocrat, I like the Hapgood/Passarella combo, great stuff.
 
Struggling to vote here. MJJ and GSTQ team looks better on paper, but I'm struggling to see how it will actually work on the field.

2mufc0s side is easier to envisage but there's a couple of players I don't personally rate too highly. Will watch this one a bit longer before voting.
Would be interesting to hear which players you don't rate?

Even if that's the case their side is not functional imo and have stated why already, so any less of quality you perceive should be made up by their lack of cohesion.
 
I don't mind Baggio as a false 9, although I'd probably prefer @2mufc0's wide forwards next to him. Might have been more natural with Baggio playing next to / off Kempes leading the line, with Nedved playing his roaming Juventus role. Problem is where he goes on the teamsheet, but I think that would have been the cleaner set-up. Like @Physiocrat, I like the Hapgood/Passarella combo, great stuff.
From what I've seen of Kempes he loved the inside left position so can see him working well with a false 9, I just don't see Baggio being that type of player, and of course no real life evidence he ever played that role. Personally Baggio fits that inside left position perfectly himself, which of course contradicts with Kempes. As for Nedved I don't believe he's the right type of wide player to cut in with a false 9. You can correct me if I'm wrong but his world player of the year form came from the middle and left? So he's not even in his peak position.
 
From what I've seen of Kempes he loved the inside left position so can see him working well with a false 9, I just don't see Baggio being that type of player, and of course no real life evidence he ever played that role. Personally Baggio fits that inside left position perfectly himself, which of course contradicts with Kempes. As for Nedved I don't believe he's the right type of wide player to cut in with a false 9. You can correct me if I'm wrong but his world player of the year form came from the middle and left? So he's not even in his peak position.

We have already said the three are roaming and interchanging, if you look at the video I posted Baggio beats ayala on the right side of the pitch not the left. He played on a three sides.
 
From what I've seen of Kempes he loved the inside left position so can see him working well with a false 9, I just don't see Baggio being that type of player, and of course no real life evidence he ever played that role. Personally Baggio fits that inside left position perfectly himself, which of course contradicts with Kempes. As for Nedved I don't believe he's the right type of wide player to cut in with a false 9. You can correct me if I'm wrong but his world player of the year form came from the middle and left? So he's not even in his peak position.
I wouldn't pigeon-hole Kempes to that extent. I see no issues with him playing a more line-leading role. He was a classic no9 for Valencia plundering loads of goals. Complements Baggio really well with his hustle and energy.

IMO a lot depends on how strict the front three follow their assigned positions. If Kempes and Baggio play more like a strike partnership and Nedved runs around a lot linking the midfield and attack, it'll be magic. If they're positionally rigid and Baggio gets a little isolated while Nedved doesn't get to use his energy, then the attack won't fire.
 
We have already said the three are roaming and interchanging, if you look at the video I posted Baggio beats ayala on the right side of the pitch not the left. He played on a three sides.
Would be good to have a bit of context too, Ayala just moved from Argentina and was in his early 20's so he was relatively green and most definitely not at his peak.

Secondly he didn't actually 'beat' him, he made a mistake by misreading the ball in the air and Baggio got through, He made a mistake, but so what? All defenders do even the best ones. So that video proves nothing.
 
I wouldn't pigeon-hole Kempes to that extent. I see no issues with him playing a more line-leading role. He was a classic no9 for Valencia plundering loads of goals. Complements Baggio really well with his hustle and energy.

IMO a lot depends on how strict the front three follow their assigned positions. If Kempes and Baggio play more like a strike partnership and Nedved runs around a lot linking the midfield and attack, it'll be magic. If they're positionally rigid and Baggio gets a little isolated while Nedved doesn't get to use his energy, then the attack won't fire.
Fair enough I haven't seen enough of him at club level, was basing it more on his famous world cup. But going by your views he should be the centre forward, and that's what I was expecting.
 
Some great players all over the pitch and some great duos: Voronin-Didi, Nedved-Xavi... There are 2 obvious leaders: Varela and Effenberg. They will both assault Didi and Xavi respectively.

The latter is the best in terms of passing skills and I would have preferred different offensive players attacking the space to exploit the passing skills of el maestro. On the other hand, I also highly rate Effenberg and the connexion Effenber-Scheva is interesting .



Also, I picked Hulshoff in a previous draft so I know he is a very strong stopper(I picked him aa long time ago)



Regarding the positioning of the players, I'm rather conservative on the tactical level or narrow-minded if you prefer. I have the feeling that Bonhof is better as a midfielder and is not a pure specialist, which would have been the welcome in his face-to-face with Stoickhov. Baggio was obviously a tactically versatile player, with a good understanding of the game, and of course comfortable attacking on both wings or through the centre of the pitch; this allowed him to play anywhere along the front-line. Robby would be certainly happy to be deployed in a free-role like here although he was rarely deployed in this position throughout his career due to the prevalence of the 4–4–2 or 5-3-2 formation, in which he usually functioned as a support striker. His best season was in 92/93 while being part of an offensive trio comprised of Vialli and Moller, the latter seemingly playing the role of central playmaker. In other words, I prefer Baggio near the penalty area with a closer support because he will have to drop deep here in order to avoid man-marking. On the offensive level, Nedved #10 (Euro04) + Baggio support striker + Kempes (version La Liga) would have been more obvious but I fully understand the choices by MJJ/GSTQ given the chosen midfielders.

On the whole, I very probably prefer the MJJ/GSTQ players but the strategy of 2mufc is more likely to get the most out of his players IMO. I tend to agree with Moby/EAP regarding some players.
 
@Don Alfredo you switched your vote?

Yeah I am constantly on the fence here.

This is where I am having problems

Tactical plan:- High tempo, direct possession football while employing gegen-pressing to win the ball back.

Your side looks so much like a Pep-ish Tiki Taka side, yet you don't call it that way. The gegenpressing setup is really good I think, that is not the problem. You say you have this very direct play with high tempo, but your midfield looks nothing like it. For me Xavi is the ultimate Tiki Taka player (insane amount of short passes, sideways passes, movements and dribblings just to keep possession). I know some talk about Xavi at Euros 2008 to say he can be more direct, but I don't think that side deserves to get called "direct" if you actually compare it to other great teams and not to some more tumescent versions of Spain's tiki taka.

I get why you described your tactics that way, no one wants to call his team's playing style "slow and not very direct". @Enigma_87 is the master at it, I swear his tactics are always the same:D:

Playing style: Direct
Defensive line: Balanced

It is just that there is nothing wrong with describing what will happen when Xavi and van Hanegem have the ball in midfield. They will dominate possession and you don't dominate possession by always playing 1 quick pass to your strikers ("direct"), but by keeping the ball and waiting for the right moment to give your attackers the platform to shine. That is why Pep's sides are uber-successfull in creating chances, they give the ball to the attacker in the right moment ("Slow") and not at the first chance ("Direct").

You actually gain very much if you play Tiki-Taka possession style, when you have the ball your opponent can't score and you can decide when is the right moment for breaking through, in contrast to very direct / counter attacking styles who have to pull through with their attacks even if the structure is bad or you have a numerical disadvantage.

The point where Tiki-Taka becomes tiresome is when you lack fast strikers and creative dribblers to penetrate the opponent's defensive structure (see Spain 12'), but you have those, so I don't see why you shouldn't be able to implement the system
 
Yeah I am constantly on the fence here.

This is where I am having problems



Your side looks so much like a Pep-ish Tiki Taka side, yet you don't call it that way. The gegenpressing setup is really good I think, that is not the problem. You say you have this very direct play with high tempo, but your midfield looks nothing like it. For me Xavi is the ultimate Tiki Taka player (insane amount of short passes, sideways passes, movements and dribblings just to keep possession). I know some talk about Xavi at Euros 2008 to say he can be more direct, but I don't think that side deserves to get called "direct" if you actually compare it to other great teams and not to some more tumescent versions of Spain's tiki taka.

I get why you described your tactics that way, no one wants to call his team's playing style "slow and not very direct". @Enigma_87 is the master at it, I swear his tactics are always the same:D:

Playing style: Direct
Defensive line: Balanced

It is just that there is nothing wrong with describing what will happen when Xavi and van Hanegem have the ball in midfield. They will dominate possession and you don't dominate possession by always playing 1 quick pass to your strikers ("direct"), but by keeping the ball and waiting for the right moment to give your attackers the platform to shine. That is why Pep's sides are uber-successfull in creating chances, they give the ball to the attacker in the right moment ("Slow") and not at the first chance ("Direct").

You actually gain very much if you play Tiki-Taka possession style, when you have the ball your opponent can't score and you can decide when is the right moment for breaking through, in contrast to very direct / counter attacking styles who have to pull through with their attacks even if the structure is bad or you have a numerical disadvantage.

The point where Tiki-Taka becomes tiresome is when you lack fast strikers and creative dribblers to penetrate the opponent's defensive structure (see Spain 12'), but you have those, so I don't see why you shouldn't be able to implement the system

Ah fair enough, I actually agree with a lot of what you said. When we say direct possession football it's more close to peps barca and city than the Spain that won the World Cup. The latter is what I considered tiki taka, that's why we did not use that word. The rest if you read our tactics, it's pretty much what you discribed down to the choice of attackers.

The only upgrade of sort over pep side is that we are employing an attacking counter press utilised by klopp to further increase the chances created.
 
I wouldn't pigeon-hole Kempes to that extent. I see no issues with him playing a more line-leading role. He was a classic no9 for Valencia plundering loads of goals. Complements Baggio really well with his hustle and energy.

IMO a lot depends on how strict the front three follow their assigned positions. If Kempes and Baggio play more like a strike partnership and Nedved runs around a lot linking the midfield and attack, it'll be magic. If they're positionally rigid and Baggio gets a little isolated while Nedved doesn't get to use his energy, then the attack won't fire.

If you read the longish OP, the plan has always been for the three to interchange. The starting position doesn't matter that much to me as it's a fluid front three. We chose baggio as a striker due to his excellent record against ayala(4 in 2 matches) and good record against nesta(3 in 9).
 
Very interesting thread and match.

For Ederson I tend to agree with most points. He is tactically a great fit however his body of work simply isn't up to par for all-time context yet. He simply doesn't have the big game moments and consistency of a 3 year peak yet so I tend to think Jennings would have been better for more reliable defensive keeping. Its hard not to see current Ederson as a defensive weakness even if his passing is clearly more developed than any older keeper. He simply hasn't faced attackers of this high quality yet so its hard to gauge how he would he would do in a match that would be higher pressure than any match tie he has played in his career and won. The one tie he has played with this level of high pressure was the whipping they took by Liverpool so I just don't think he is there yet for all-time keeper ratings.

For the overall tactic, I also think the mjj/godshave side resembles a Pep side much more than a Klopp side. To me the difference in styles of counter pressing are that Klopp's style is more high energy and focused on never allowing the opposition time on the ball. Whereas with Pep's style the counter press is more focused on choking off space and passing options. This is why I believe Klopp calls himself heavy metal football while Pep has never been described in similar terms. I think the personnel like the midfield trio in particular of Xavi, WvH and Varela are more suited to a Pep style counter press than heavy metal football.

Re: Hulshoff I think we, as a group, have a tendency to put a little too much difference in class between the lowest rated of the ~150 Draft Regular players and players that are not regulars. By this I mean the perception is sometimes that the worst draft regulars are still an entire tier above the best non-regulars. I think this is wrong thinking and I am guilty of this myself sometimes. IMO there are definitely still a group of underrated players that are probably better overall than some of the draft regulars that we are more familiar with. It took big efforts for instance from Anto on the Uruguayan players and Annah on the 50s Swedish stars to help some previously underrated players get the recognition they deserve. I think if we keep this up with drafts, in another 3 years there will probably be some more players that we as a group rate higher than we do currently as we get more exposure to them.

I also tend to agree with harms that something about Effenberg-Didi seems a little off. I personally see Didi benefiting more from a different style of player here going against this type of possession side. I can see Effenberg getting frustrated and start fouling Xavi/WvH which gives the mjj/shave side more set piece opportunities. I don't think Effenberg has the right temperament to counter Xavi-van Hanegem without him running into fouling trouble so I see him as a weakness here.
 
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Not sure why there are questions over Hulshoff's quality, even in terms of al All Time draft. He's a beast of a stopper from what I've seen of him, and quite good with the ball at his feet as well (he had to be to feature so prominently in a Cruyff team). He's part of probably the best Ajax team of all time, and that team was bossing it from 1971-1973 in particular. They were as dominant as Pep's Barca back then.
 
Very interesting thread and match.

For Ederson I tend to agree with most points. He is tactically a great fit however his body of work simply isn't up to par for all-time context yet. He simply doesn't have the big game moments and consistency of a 3 year peak yet so I tend to think Jennings would have been better for more reliable defensive keeping. Its hard not to see current Ederson as a defensive weakness even if his passing is clearly more developed than any older keeper. He simply hasn't faced attackers of this high quality yet so its hard to gauge how he would he would do in a match that would be higher pressure than any match tie he has played in his career and won. The one tie he has played with this level of high pressure was the whipping they took by Liverpool so I just don't think he is there yet for all-time keeper ratings.

For the overall tactic, I also think the mjj/godshave side resembles a Pep side much more than a Klopp side. To me the difference in styles of counter pressing are that Klopp's style is more high energy and focused on never allowing the opposition time on the ball. Whereas with Pep's style the counter press is more focused on choking off space and passing options. This is why I believe Klopp calls himself heavy metal football while Pep has never been described in similar terms. I think the personnel like the midfield trio in particular of Xavi, WvH and Varela are more suited to a Pep style counter press than heavy metal football.

Re: Hulshoff I think we, as a group, have a tendency to put a little too much difference in class between the lowest rated of the ~150 Draft Regular players and players that are not regulars. By this I mean the perception is sometimes that the worst draft regulars are still an entire tier above the best non-regulars. I think this is wrong thinking and I am guilty of this myself sometimes. IMO there are definitely still a group of underrated players that are probably better overall than some of the draft regulars that we are more familiar with. It took big efforts for instance from Anto on the Uruguayan players and Annah on the 50s Swedish stars to help some previously underrated players get the recognition they deserve. I think if we keep this up with drafts, in another 3 years there will probably be some more players that we as a group rate higher than we do currently as we get more exposure to them.

I also tend to agree with harms that something about Effenberg-Didi seems a little off. I personally see Didi benefiting more from a different style of player here going against this type of possession side. I can see Effenberg getting frustrated and start fouling Xavi/WvH which gives the mjj/shave side more set piece opportunities. I don't think Effenberg has the right temperament to counter Xavi-van Hanegem without him running into fouling trouble so I see him as a weakness here.

Agree with most of your points. On the comparison to a Pep side, what it is missing is genuine width.

None of Bonhof, Hapgood, Nedved, or Kempes are players that will stay wide. The criticism of too many players centrally is a fair one. Most of Pep's sides have had good wide players with pace that have stretched the pitch. I don't see that here.

Didi,Effenberg, and Voronin combination could do with a goal scoring midfielder. I remember when i picked Didi in one of the drafts, the underlying criticism was he doesn't score enough goals to be the most advanced player in a midfield 3

I am struggling to decide as i like both teams quite a bit and pretty hard to separate.
 
How do you all rate, Hapgood-Passarella in a gegen press side? Hapgood especially feels like a outlier...like a Catenaccio player. He was old school full back (modern CB). Can buy as a cover for Passarella but not suited to tactics here.

The gegen press is causing more harm than good for MJJ imo.
 
Apart from Jennings decision your set up is spot on.

That midfield is fantastic, especially having Nedved working his socks off wide.

I'd buy the Kempes/Baggio link up and dynamics, just not sure if your front three has enough goals in them to outscore the opposition.

That Baggio vs Ayala seems good route to goal.

Considering 3 years peaks for all involved:-

Baggio- 79 goals in 130 matches (0.61 goals/ match)
Kempes- 90 goals in 135 matches (0.67 goals/match)
Nedved - 32 in 123 matches (0.26 goals/ match)

Shevchenko- 82 goals in 125 matches (0.66 goals/match)
Stoichov- 68 goals in 137 matches( 0.5 goals/match)
Robben- 55 goals in 91 matches (0.6 goals/ match)

So both the sides have similar goal scoring for the two biggest threats, stoichov has scored more than Kempes but when you add Passarella to the mix it evens out.(.44 goals/match, with a season high of 24)
 
Agree with most of your points. On the comparison to a Pep side, what it is missing is genuine width.

None of Bonhof, Hapgood, Nedved, or Kempes are players that will stay wide. The criticism of too many players centrally is a fair one. Most of Pep's sides have had good wide players with pace that have stretched the pitch. I don't see that here.

Didi,Effenberg, and Voronin combination could do with a goal scoring midfielder. I remember when i picked Didi in one of the drafts, the underlying criticism was he doesn't score enough goals to be the most advanced player in a midfield 3

I am struggling to decide as i like both teams quite a bit and pretty hard to separate.

That's a good point on the width. That's the one element really missing. I'm just nit picking though really as I also like both sides, they both were very well drafted.
 
Ederson needs one more year to be a proper all-time keeper but what a keeper he is! Comfortably the best passer i ever saw between keepers, feck id have him as one of the best passers in the league, players included. Its like having a Scholes in goal....

I mean if you guys are doubting ederson, not sure how you feel about alaba.

Disappointment of the season: David Alaba

What has happened to the Austrian. Three years ago he was one of the finest talents in the world, capable of playing almost any role in any position.

Since Pep Guardiola left, however, he’s struggled to find his way. Used exclusively as an orthodox left-back, Alaba has become decreasingly reliable and effective.

We’ll see if things change under Nico Kovač.

https://en.onefootball.com/end-of-season-review-bayern-munich/

 
In this case it's not the playmaking that concerns me (although the only other "real" playmaker in that Dutch side was Cruyff, I won't call Neeskens/Haan/Rensenbrink etc. playmakers), but rather their completely different views on the game. Uber-controlling and rational Xavi and flamboyant van Hanegem.

And, as I said, I think that both Xavi/van Hanegem and Effenberg/Didi partnerships would work, but I wouldn't call either ideal.

Isn't that the same as iniesta though? You don't get more flamboyant than him.