Sheep Draft R1: harms vs. Arbitrium - Voting closed

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


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harms vs. Arbitrium


harms

The idea behind this team.

A thread on the ideal XI built around Lobanovsky's tactics inspired me to try and build such a side in this draft. As a blueprint, I took his Dynamo Kyiv team from the 70's — a peculiar interpretation of a midfield diamond. Most of the creativity comes from my "side" midfielders (Schuster and Masopust), while in the hole I have goalscoring box-to-box instead of a traditional number 10.

General requirements from all of my players include stamina, versatility, willingness to press, good tactical awareness and an ability to beat any opponent one-on-one. The specifics will be discussed later.

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Tactical notes:
  • intensive pressing, where Blokhin and Boniek form my first line of defence. All my players have exemplary work rate and stamina and most have experience in pressing sides
  • high defensive line. Alan Hansen is one of the most decorated defenders in history and a rare one that earned all his accolades by orchestrating a high line and doing aggressive offside traps. Schnellinger is just about perfect for his role as well — very fast and physical defender who excelled in all positions across the backline and in defensive midfield
  • constant movement and positional interchange — my devastatingly quick forwards are equally comfortable centrally and out wide and anyone from my "attacking" midfield can break forward into the space that was created by their movement
Focus. Midfield:

My midfield will be the key to this game. The only way to limit Cristiano is by cutting of service to him — and Barca, for example, showed multiple times. He can, of course, create something out of nothing, but a midfield domination is still the best way to limit him. Thankfully, I have a huge advantage here.

Ballon d'Or winning Lothar Matthäus, arguably the greatest midfielder ever, is unleashed here to score goals and actively participate in the final third — as well as dominating his opponents in the middle.

Young maverick Bernd Schuster had just lightened up the 1980 Euros with his magnificent performance — a true force of nature, he organised Allöfs hat-trick in the game against Netherlands and pulled a master-class in the final. All while running around like a mad dog and chasing opponents all the way to the right back position.

Ballon d'Or winning Josef Masopust is another creator for this side, but he does it in his own fashion. Immaculate dribbler and one of the most graceful footballers ever to play, he fits perfectly in that inside-left channel with the overlapping Briegel. Masopust and Stielike are the ice to Matthäus' and Schuster's fire.

And, last but not least, Uli Stielike — a midfield general who will oversee the game's flow from the deeper position. His metronomic passing will help us gain the control of the game and his experience as a sweeper and a center back will help him cover for my backline when needed.

Where are the goals coming from?

I know that the absence of an orthodox number 9 will lead to questions about my attack's prolificacy. I want to answer them in advance.

Lobanovsky used different systems and employed different strikers, but that 70's team didn't had a classical target man/free-roaming forward partnership, both were completely interchangeable. Blokhin especially was one of the few roaming forwards that were capable of leading the line — Rummenigge also comes to mind. He was the main goalscorer for all his teams — unsurprisingly, with more than 300 goals to his name, Oleg Blokhin still remains the all-time top scorer for USSR, Dynamo Kyiv, Soviet Top league and Soviet Cup.

Then there's the big one. Lothar Matthäus won numerous league titles and a World Cup being his team’s top scorer (or, at worst, the second best). At his peak he scored close to 20 goals per season for his clubs and also scored a lot for his country (including incredible 7 goals in 1990). Bernd Schuster was very prolific as well — he reached double digits in goals in all 7 of his full seasons for Barca. I’m excluding 86/87, where he failed to make a single appearance due to his conflict with the management. This is the young Euro-1980 Schuster by the way.

Zbigniew Boniek spent half of his career in midfield or on the wings, but when he was played up front, most notably in Juventus European games, he developed a telepathic understanding with Michel Platini and scored many important goals from his incisive passes (hence the «Bello di notte» nickname). The variety of his finishing was highlighted by one of the best hat-tricks in World Cup’s history — against Belgium in 1982 he scored on a pass, on a header and on a dribble.


Bonus. Not to be underrated:

Antonello Cuccureddu. Throughout the 70’s he was a part of one of the best defensive lines in football history. With some alterations, Juve’s backline of the time consisted of Cabrini, Scirea, Gentile and Cuccureddu (their average lost goal per game in Serie A was 0.67 and the clean sheet ratio was 0.52, 78 in 150 games). An often overlooked player, he made more than 300 appearances for Juve, and still holds a particularly peculiar record — in 1975/76 season, at the time where your number was assigned to you on the basis of your position, he used 7 different jersey numbers. What a testament to his versatility. His best game came from the right back position.


Arbitrium

Aulam Famae - Hall of Fame FC

Theme: Mixing it up from previous drafts, I decided to use the element of hard luck that can potentially come with a sheep draft and aimed to build a "story" before building the "team". Luckily, I was able to fuse the two together seamlessly and have by far my favourite team i've assembled in any draft. The end Result is a 1-11 of absolute legends for their clubs, including the best version of the Barcelona 08-11 defence (widely considered the greatest club team of all time) and ahead of them, 4 inductees into the Roma hall of fame who all get what it means to play for the badge on the chest. The other 3 players on the pitch are all legends in their own right, some at several clubs.

Defence: Starting with Gianluca Pagliuca, he is absolutely perfect to play behind that legendary Barca defence and was hugely effective as a "sweeper keeper". Very accomplished with his distribution, he is also a legendary shot stopper and penalty saver, as demonstrated in the 1994 world cup final. Ahead of him really doesn't need much of an introduction. They know each other, there's no debate as to how they would play and in front of them they have players all comfortable receiving the ball and holding onto it if required. Which brings me to;

Midfield: The 3 Central players are all Roma Legends. Cerezo is one of the best deep lying playmakers in history, and one of the most intelligent players on the park. Either side of him he has the old and the new era of Roman Captaincy. Bernardini (plenty material on him to come) has the skillset to play a box-to-box role and De Rossi will thrive in this set-up and against the opposition.

Attack: Cristiano Ronaldo really doesn't need to be discussed in this game. There isn't a defender on the pitch capable of stopping him at his best, let alone a good enough right back. Totti slips into the False 9/Centre forward role and adds an additional layer of legend to that Roman Midfield, whilst Gregorsz Lato will absolutely thrive int his system, given his ability to stretch the play on the wings, move inside when required and thanks to his work ethic he'll be able to help with tracking back aswell.

Why I will win: The players suit the system. There's not a case of throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks. Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player on the pitch and up against a defence he can get the better of. There is just too much movement, too much passion and too much determination in my side for it not to work. Maybe Harms will spring a surprise, but at the moment it doesn't appear that there will be too much width to his side. If that's the case, then he is going to get absolutely mauled on the counter given the pace and dynamism I have on the wings.

Thoughts on the opposition: Yawn. Just joking Harms. It’s an impressive team as usual from you, though with your knowledge it will be nice if we can steer the conversation towards some of the players you haven’t really covered before.
 
@harms whats the story with cudicini never getting picked for the Italian squad? From what I read he’s regarded as one of Milan’s finest...
 
Cuccureddu vs CR7 is a mauling waiting to happen IMO.

It is, and thankfully I have a hard working ball winning midfield and an extremely organized defence so that when I d retrieve the ball, Ronaldo is in, time after time.
 
I like @harms team better but would like some more info on the right back.
 
@harms

Have a few work things to take care of this morning will be able to answer any questions you have in the afternoon.

Just not sold on those 3 more advanced midfielders working well together in that system and the lack of width is a concern. Your set up almost gives Dani Alves free reign to do what he does best and win a game of football from right back. Lato’s Industry and often underrated ability is just a welcome bonus.
 
Cuccureddu vs CR7 is a mauling waiting to happen IMO.
Why? Cr7 has never been a 'mauling' type player like R9 or a Best. Maybe a case can be made for his united version. But best known for his ghosting into scoring positions, so it's more of a matter of harms defenders being intelligent enough to stop him and cutting of supply .
 
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Cuccureddu vs CR7 is a mauling waiting to happen IMO.
He was a brilliant defender, and I’m not just saying it for the game. Still, the main strategy is to starve him from the ball. Alves, who was an average defender (I’d definitely have Cuccu ahead of him defensively, although there’s no comparison in their overall level, of course), had multiple great games against him because of it.

He’s still the best player on the pitch, but I’m confident that I will outscore Arbitrium on this one.
 
Abidal is also a poor fit for Cristiano. I’m on the phone, but I think I don’t need to explain the importance of Marcelo for his peak versions — without a left back that takes care of his flank, Ronaldo is more predictable and has to battle 2 defenders at once.

Arbitrium’s whole defensive unit is far from brilliant, frankly — that Barca side scarcely conceded but that was due to the midfield domination of Xavi and co. Here they have a relatively (compared to what they’re used to) underwhelming midfield that is under an immense pressure.
 
Think harms team may be short a couple of midfielders.

On a serious note,

harms team makes Matthaus almost superfluous. Between Masopust and Schuster, they have the creativity covered. A player of Matthaus caliber still brings a lot, but overall it's more similar than complimentary. Also don't like the Blokhin/Boniek pairing. Very similar leftie players. A proper goalscoring #10 would have been perfect in harms team.

For Arby lovely attack and Bernandini (whom I don't know much about) nice midfield too. That defence though screams to be underrated.

Harms will have more possession, but in the end Arby will nick a goal more is how I see it for now. Will wait for discussions before voting.
 
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Just not sold on those 3 more advanced midfielders working well together in that system and the lack of width is a concern.
Don’t expect you to be sold on your opponent’s team :)

The lack of width comes from the lack of knowledge. Take a look of Schuster’s performances at 1980 Euros and at Masopust’s 1962 World Cup and you’ll see why I chose them for those roles.
 
I like @harms team better but would like some more info on the right back.
Will try to post something when I’ll get home. Don’t have the time to make a proper compilation, sadly, but he was a mainstay in Juve’s defence of the 70’s — it was a very interesting set up with Gentile, Cabrini and Cuccureddu forming a back 4 with Scirea. Their positions depended on opponent, Cuccu and Gentile were able to play in every position.

He started in their 1977 UEFA Cup win at right back, for example.
 
A player of Matthaus caliber still brings a lot, but overall it's more similar than complimentary. Also don't like the Blokhin/Boniek pairing. Very similar leftie players. A proper goalscoring #10 would have been perfect in harms team.
I wouldn’t trade Matthäus for anyone here, literally. And if you don’t understand how this set up will work (it’s quite unorthodox), try watching Dynamo’s games against Bayern, ideally in 1976/77, but 1975 will do.

Blokhin and Boniek both roamed all over the place and were as comfortable on the right as they were on the left. Blokhin scores many of his trademark goals with his right, iirc both of his goals in CWC finals were scored with his right foot.
 
It’s actually one of the first teams that unleashes true Matthäus in my opinion, he usually gets shoehorned deeper and often with an all-time great number 10 in front of him, which is a shame. Here he is much closer to his Inter role.
 
I don't think @harms lacks width. If anything he has too much width in attack and probably a more defensive oriented full backs would've been better against Lato and Cristiano.

Hansen in a high defensive line could be an issue.
 
Hansen in a high defensive line could be an issue.
I can argue on this point myself, but @Gio already said it better.

Not sure about that. Zico's demolition of Liverpool was hugely impressive. And part of why I rate Zico right up Pele's arse and alongside the likes of Beckenbauer, Cruyff and Di Stefano. But that Liverpool team is under-rated on this forum and Hansen was its best defender by some margin. He mastered a ruthless and aggressive offside trap in a triple European Cup winning side. He can pull of a high line better than just about anyone frankly.
 
I can argue on this point myself, but @Gio already said it better.
Hmm, just saw that quote and you were arguing on the other side :lol: and as you mentioned there they didn't face forwards like Zico/Romario on regular basis.

Cristiano is an all time great and coming from the Cuccureddu/Hansen zone is worrying for me. Even if you argue that Hansen mastered the offside trap, he was still on the slow side and Cuccureddu didn't play in a high line at Juve. He was incredibly versatile, could play anywhere on the pitch, but does he have the discipline to be a RB in a back four which employs the offside trap in a high line?
 
Hmm, just saw that quote and you were arguing on the other side :lol: and as you mentioned there they didn't face forwards like Zico/Romario on regular basis.
Yeah, I know :) I like to think that the fact that my opinion changes over time is a sign of me evolving and having a better understanding of the game and certain players. I've watched a lot more Liverpool games since then.

Cristiano is an all time great and coming from the Cuccureddu/Hansen zone is worrying for me. Even if you argue that Hansen mastered the offside trap, he was still on the slow side and Cuccureddu didn't play in a high line at Juve. He was incredibly versatile, could play anywhere on the pitch, but does he have the discipline to be a RB in a back four which employs the offside trap in a high line?
As I said, the main idea is to starve Ronaldo from the ball, and I can't think of a better personnel to do it. We've seen over the years that it's possible. Peak Ronaldo, for what it's worth, is less likely to get the ball at the center circle and score, like Messi/Luis Ronaldo/Maradona; he can do it, but he's less likely to.

I'd argue that my worst midfielder is on par with Arbitrium's best one (Stielike/Cerezo), and De Rossi with Bernardini are out of their depth competing with the greatest midfielders of all-time. He also doesn't really have a complimentary set up aside from Totti — Abidal especially is a poor replacement of Marcelo (or even Evra).

As for Cuccu — let's call it a leap of faith. He featured in pretty much every position, and had all the necessary attributes (pace, discipline, positional awareness) to play the role that I've given him. But I don't think that he ever played in a high line. It's clearly a weak point though, for all my love for him, he's not a match for Ronaldo — but the collective effort should be enough for me to score more.
 
It’s actually one of the first teams that unleashes true Matthäus in my opinion, he usually gets shoehorned deeper and often with an all-time great number 10 in front of him, which is a shame. Here he is much closer to his Inter role.

Whilst he is possibly more advanced than his Inter role I much prefer him here than in a double pivot
 
One of my oldest compilations, but just to highlight the version of Schuster I'm using here




And Masopust — 3 games of 1962 WC
 
@harms the trouble with saying that you’re using a specific version of Schuster is that the players around him need to offer similar qualities to the players that played around Schuster. Because he performed decent enough in that role doesnt mean he’d do it in your formation or with your players. By harnessing all of Schuster, you’ll lose out on the impact of some others.

Contrast that with my team. There’s no debate to be had about who’s players are suited more to the system (I’m not saying yours aren’t just mine are far more so)

You want to underplay the Barcelona defence but immediately in front of them they have a quicker version of busquets and two all round midfielders who put a shift in to win the back back ASAP.
 
The more I look at harms team the more I don’t see players in their best position or where they would want to play.

If you had Guardiola managing my players and Lobanovsky managing harms I think it’s hard to argue my side wouldn’t win. It’s a very clear system with players all very capable of performing their roles.
 
@harms the trouble with saying that you’re using a specific version of Schuster is that the players around him need to offer similar qualities to the players that played around Schuster. Because he performed decent enough in that role doesnt mean he’d do it in your formation or with your players.
There's so much to love about this :lol:
Do you think that Garrincha can only play in 4-2-4? Or Milan's version of Rijkaard can't play in midfield three?
And then there's
he performed decent enough in that role
Cesar Luis Menotti said:
"One of the greatest talents I have ever seen." — on Schuster's performance in EURO 1980



Contrast that with my team. There’s no debate to be had about who’s players are suited more to the system (I’m not saying yours aren’t just mine are far more so)
  • Abidal as a width-providing fullback with Cristiano ahead of him?
  • Cerezo, De Rossi and Bernardini as a midfield three?
Just because your system is simpler, it doesn't mean that your players are better suited to it. You have a flawless front three — but that's about it.
 
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Fulvio Bernardini
Born December 28 1905, Died 13th January 1984
286 Appearances for Roma, 47 goals

"When you were stuck, what did you do? Who did you give it to? You passed it to Fulvio Bernardini and he would sort it out.”
- Giorgio Carpi


So this was the discovery of the draft for me, and having now versed myself on his accomplishments and legacy, i'm just surprised that noone else picked him before me. The following is translated so please excuse some of the lexicon;


If Sante Ancherani brought football to the capital, Fulvio "Fuffo" Bernardini will forever be a Roman football legend. The sad thing is that this champion born and raised in Lazio and who gave as a coach the colors biancocelesti the first title of Lazio history (the Italian Cup of 1958) is remembered more on the other side of the Tiber, where he has won nothing neither as a player nor as a coach. But despite everything, the sports center of Rome in Trigoria called him "Fulvio Bernardini". This is also one of the characteristics of the people of Lazio, not inclined to forgive those leaving the family. Except for rare exceptions, in fact, all the former (especially the important ones) when they return to the Olimpico from opponents are overwhelmed by whistles. It happened to Di Canio and Nedvěd, it also happened to Alessandro Nesta, the greatest talent who blossomed in the biancocelesti nursery since the heroic days of the great Fulvio "Fuffo" Bernardini

So from my research, it turns out that as a kid Fulvio was actually a goalkeeper on the books of Lazio.

"It was Baccani, who voted for me - says Bernardini in an interview with Franco Melli - to get me out of the net. He came to me and told me that with the gloves in hand waiting for the rare shots of the adversaries I was wasted, that I had to bring my illuminations into the game. I thanked him. At the beginning I had arranged to do the goalkeeper just to play, because in the other roles I knew that Lazio was very copious, he needed only a goalkeeper. The first shirt from midfielder, Baccani gave it to me on the occasion of the derby back with Fortitudo. In the first leg our centered titanium had been expelled and we were in full emergency. Seeing me in the middle of the field, at the beginning the fans and the players of Fortitudo laughed, but after a few minutes, however, they realized that I was not a mediocre stop-gap. Thus began my happy cycle in midfield and that of the redemption of Lazio, which no longer had to bow before the superiority of Fortitudo of Degni, Sansoni and Attilio Ferraris ".


Fulvio Bernardini is the architect of the rebirth of Lazio, leading the team towards the final for the championship lost with Genoa, but play so well to receive compliments from the opponents and the call-up to the National team. He is the first Roman player to wear the blue jersey, even if his experience in the national team is very short, due to the disagreements with the blue coach Vittorio Pozzo. But in Rome, Fulvio Bernardini became a myth.To understand the level of the popularity of Bernardini in his city, I quote the words of one of his biographer, Vittorio Finizio, who woke up at six in the morning to be able to tear off his autograph (Fulvio in fact he detested the divism and after the games went out of the service door to avoid the fans who presented themselves with sheet and pencil): "Bernardini - wrote Finizio - had only one badge and the only one to be called by the crowd 'Fulvio nostra'. There was not one of our Attilio and not even one of our Guido: but only he, Fulvio, was decorated by the medal of the adjective possessive of the Roman crowd. The only officers of the marital status called him Bernardini, plus some serious commendatore who was vaguely interested in football. But for the crowd, for the fans, Bernardini was 'Fulvio nostra'. And, in Romanesco, our fuss ".

Bernardini plays 100 games with Lazio and, despite having started his career as a goalkeeper, he closes his adventure in biancoceleste with 65 goals on the net. The marriage with Lazio ended badly in 1926, when "Fuffo" discovers that he is the only player in Lazio to play only for glory, while the other teammates take money under the table. So, despite that oath of eternal loyalty to Lazio that make him do in front of his father on his deathbed, Fulvio Bernardini takes suitcases and leaves for Milan, hired by Inter. And this is also a precursor: the first player of Roman football called to play with a great player from the North. In Milan he discovers Meazza and convinces the coach Arpad Weisz to launch him in the first team. After two years in Milan he returns to Rome, but goes to play on the other side of the Tiber, in the newly formed AC Roma, where he remains 11 years old, playing 286 games with 45 goals scored.



I was also able to find a couple of anecdotes concerning Fulvio being the person who recommended Guiseppe Meazza to the national team, which I found hilarious that i'm trying to sell a player on here, who tried in real life to sell a player that is often difficult to sell on here :lol:

Bernardini was inducted into the Roma hall of fame and here is what they had to say about him;

“He was only five foot 10 inches but the way he went up for a header was always perfect, effortless. And his positioning was fabulous. He had eyes like a hawk – all he’d need was a quick glance to see the whole field… he had a strategic mind that could predict the opposition’s every move. As far as I know, only Giuseppe Meazza, Pelé and Alfredo Di Stefano had such ability. There might be a few more, but I can say for certain. He channelled all of his talents into his deep-lying midfield role, becoming the lynchpin, the backbone of the team. Fulvio was naturally left-footed and thus preferred to strike the ball with his left. Yet with time and lots of practice, he was able to use his right too. He was no sprinter but he did have a great stride on him. Anyone who accused him of slowness was overlooking the fact that Fulvio would release the ball straight away, speeding the game up in the process.”

This portrait of Fulvio Bernardini, penned by the great writer Vittorio Finizio, provides a fascinating insight into Bernardini’s technical skill. Yet Fulvio’s greatness was so immense that a simple passage of text could never hope to properly capture it.

Bernardini embodies the true essence of what it means to be a Romanista. Not just on the field of play, where he proved himself to be one of the biggest talents in European football, but also away from the game – Bernardini was a shining example of loyalty, moral standing and sporting integrity.

For years, it has been written that Vittorio Pozzo excluded him from the national team for being “too good”. The story stems back to Italy v Hungary match of 13 December, 1931.

With Bernardini already in his kit, Pozzo took him aside and explained the situation, which ‘The Doctor’, as he was known, himself relayed many years later in an interview with Mario Sconcerti: “I’m sorry but I’m not going to play you because you’re too far ahead of the others. Your team-mates don’t have the same grasp of the game that you do. You’re too superior. I practically have to ask you to play less well.”

Fulvio Bernardini was, for Roma, a shining star that lit the club’s path towards a destiny of greatness and sporting ethics. He was a role model, never to be forgotten.

It came as no surprise that, when Dino Viola became president of Roma in 1979, one of his first thoughts was for Fulvio: “I used to chase him around Ostia trying to get his autograph. I will speak to him to hear his opinion.”

Viola – who led the club to its second Scudetto triumph – continued the tributes in 1984, when he named the Trigoria training centre after the great Bernardini, ensuring that his name would forever be linked to the club of his heart.


 
There's so much to love about this :lol:
Do you think that Garrincha can only play in 4-2-4? Or Milan's version of Rijkaard can't play in midfield three?
And then there's






  • Abidal as a width-providing fullback with Cristiano ahead of him?
  • Cerezo, De Rossi and Bernardini as a midfield three?
Just because your system is simpler, it doesn't mean that your players are better suited to it. You have a flawless front three — but that's about it.

Against a suspect defence? Tell me who's defence is more likely to work, The defence of arguably the greatest club side of all time with a better goalkeeper than they had, or a left back who didn't always play there next to a centre back who didnt always play there, a slow defender who was one of the main benefactors of a successful liverpool attacking dynasty, and a right back who played 13 times for italy in 3 years?
 
Against a suspect defence? Tell me who's defence is more likely to work, The defence of arguably the greatest club side of all time with a better goalkeeper than they had, or a left back who didn't always play there next to a centre back who didnt always play there, a slow defender who was one of the main benefactors of a successful liverpool attacking dynasty, and a right back who played 13 times for italy in 3 years?
My team as a unit is more likely to work in my eyes than yours. I won't get into the second part of your post because it doesn't look like you're not trying to start a meaningful discussion.
 
@harms do you have anything on cudicini omission from the italian squad? it's a pretty big sticking point when my goalkeeper saved penalties in a world cup final, recently not nominated for the inter milan hall of fame and yours couldn't even get a single cap in an era just before Dino Zoff made the #1 jersey his. Was it a political thing?
 
My team as a unit is more likely to work in my eyes than yours. I won't get into the second part of your post because it doesn't look like you're not trying to start a meaningful discussion.

Do you believe your defence will function better than mine?

answer truthfully
 
Interesting read that @Arbitrium, got to say it's the first time I've ever heard anyone described as 'too good'
 
Interesting read that @Arbitrium, got to say it's the first time I've ever heard anyone described as 'too good'

Yeah I found another few articles saying the same thing but it seems a bit too far fetched.

I had another where someone was reflecting on him and they said that he belonged in the 70s era, which makes it all the more surprising someone like harms has never picked him.

His wikipedia describes him as "One of the greatest italian footballers of all time" and roma's training facility was named after him. He must have been quite the legend.
 
Yeah I found another few articles saying the same thing but it seems a bit too far fetched.

I had another where someone was reflecting on him and they said that he belonged in the 70s era, which makes it all the more surprising someone like harms has never picked him.

His wikipedia describes him as "One of the greatest italian footballers of all time" and roma's training facility was named after him. He must have been quite the legend.

Yeah it will most definitely be a romanticised view. It's the issue I personally have with pre war players, you never find a balanced analysis of them, which makes it harder to gauge just how good they actually were.
 
Cuccureddu vs CR7 is a mauling waiting to happen IMO.

This a million times.

I don't think there was much competition for the right back in the italy squad at the time, and from what i can tell at the 1978 world cup cuccureddu was an unused sub a few times, came off the bench in the second half and started the third place playoff. Next to Hansen who is nowhere near the standard required to deal with Ronaldo, its an absolute massacre. Abidal is able to get on with the best bits about his game and help out where required (as he did many times peeling in behind the way alba currently does, only this time its totti finding him) but yeah, there's literally no battle to be had here for harms.
 
Yeah it will most definitely be a romanticised view. It's the issue I personally have with pre war players, you never find a balanced analysis of them, which makes it harder to gauge just how good they actually were.

I think naming stadiums and training facilities after players is as good an indication as any sometimes. In 100 years, no-one will really know who Sir Alex Ferguson was but if it someone asked you why does he have a stand in OT named after him you'd see it as blasphemy. i think its only fair that we consider talents like meazza and bernardini to be as legendary as they've been made out to be. everything points to them being among the best of their era.
 


some classic footage here with a younger andy grey commentating, the first ten seconds show a matthaus who's confused about what his role is here versus what it normally is. I can't think of a single reason why you wouldn't always play Matthaus in the role he's pretty much universally recognized as the greatest ever at- The box to box role.

That's my issue with Harms team, there's just too many questions as to whether or not some of these players are in their best role.

Was Briegel more effective at left back than as a DM?
Is Schellinger ok as a LCB next to only one other CB?
Is Didgeridoo really capable of performing the role required here to limit ronaldo's impact?
Are masopust and Schuster in their GOAT positions?
Is boniek really at his best as a striker?

You just don't have the same questions with my team. Every single one is in their absolute best position to get the most out of their abilities. And that includes the GK.
 
And on Toninho Cerezo;

Cerezo was one of the most consistent and valuable deep lying playmakers of all time. He contributed massively to success wherever he went. In 1980 for unfancied Atl-Mineiro he was the highest rated player in Brazil over even Falcao, Socrates and Zico.
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He helped Roma to the Coppa Italia in 84 and 86. He helped Sampdoria to Coppa Italia in 88 and 89. He was a huge presence in Sampdoria's legendary scudetto winning season in 90-91. He was in Sampdoria's European runs winning the Cup Winners Cup in 1990. Then he went back to Brazil and helped Tele Santana's legendary Sao Paulo that won the Libertadores in 92 and 93 and then the Intercontinental Cup over Capello's Milan in 93 and Cruyff's Barcelona in 92.

During this time the rangy Toninho (he was once described “as long as a day without coffee”), had developed into a fine defensive midfielder, not only strong in the tackle, but energetic, tactically aware and with a fine range of passing. His performance for Mineiro had brought him to A Seleção in 1977. Cerezo would go on to earn 57 caps for Brazil over the next eight years appearing at both the 1978 and 1982 World Cups and be a regular under Santana until injury forced his cut from the 1986 squad.

His performances led AS Roma to pay a reported $10million for him in 1983 – a substantial amount then for a defensive midfielder. Toninho would stay for three years helping i Giallorossi to two Coppa Italia titles the second in 1986 against a Sampdoria team he was joining a few week later.

The move to i Blucerchiati brought more success – the Coppa Italia in 1988 and 89; a UEFA Cup Winners Cup and Sampdoria’s sole Scudetto in the 1990-1 season. Age and injuries may have been catching up but when Sampdoria reached the European Cup Final in 1992 their opponents – Barcelona – thought enough of the old man (he was 37 by then) to put one of their brightest stars – a certain Pep Guardiola – to mark him.

The summer after that final Santana came calling again and Cerezo joined São Paulo. More triumph followed over the next two years including a Campeonato Paulista and a Copa Libertadores. São Paulo had already won the 1992 Intercontinental Cup when in 1993 they faced AC Milan with a chance to become only the fourth team to win the title back to back.

This was the Milan of Baresi and Maldini who would win the Scudetto the coming season conceding just 15 goals. The 38 year old Toninho excelled. A first time cross field pass to a young Cafu to set up the first, followed by a timed run to score the second at the back post himself and capped off with a defense splitting pass for the third. São Paulo won 3-2.





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Do you believe your defence will function better than mine?

answer truthfully
Yes. Your defence is good but nothing special, I like mine better, although it’s not close to ideal either. But this is a pointless question — you’re trying to change focus from the game itself to the individual battles that you think you’re winning, but it doesn’t work that way. United had a better defence than Barca but it didn’t matter much when Xavi and Iniesta’s took the game in their hands. Midfield plays massive part in my defensive strategy. Even forwards do — that’s total football (whichever version you prefer) for you.

As per the absurdity of your arguments — who do you think will perform better, USSR all-time top scorer or a left winger, who didn’t always play there? German footballer of the Year or Shakira’s husband?

Will reply on Cudicini when I’ll get home, but it’s not something that you can’t google immediately. Competition — it’s especially tough on keepers who can’t perform in other positions and rarely get a chance when the other one doesn’t feck up massively. Look how long it took De Gea to overcome Casillas — and that’s today, when we have so much more international games to play in.
 
Yes. Your defence is good but nothing special, I like mine better, although it’s not close to ideal either. But this is a pointless question — you’re trying to change focus from the game itself to the individual battles that you think you’re winning, but it doesn’t work that way. United had a better defence than Barca but it didn’t matter much when Xavi and Iniesta’s took the game in their hands. Midfield plays massive part in my defensive strategy. Even forwards do — that’s total football (whichever version you prefer) for you.

As per the absurdity of your arguments — who do you think will perform better, USSR all-time top scorer or a 5 time ballon d'or winning 5 times champions league winning top 5 GOAT players, who didn’t always play there? German footballer of the Year or a double euro winning, world cup winning 3 champions league winning centreback with a hot wife?

Will reply on Cudicini when I’ll get home, but it’s not something that you can’t google immediately. Competition — it’s especially tough on keepers who can’t perform in other positions and rarely get a chance when the other one doesn’t feck up massively. Look how long it took De Gea to overcome Casillas — and that’s today, when we have so much more international games to play in.

fixed that for you. answer is my guys.