@harms how can your defence function better than mines when mines literally functioned together for several seasons? Cerezo and busquets are hard to separate, but from a defensive standpoint I'd have De Rossi over Xavi every day of the week and it seems like Fulvio and Iniesta were probably comparable. I get you have to sell your team but claiming players you've threw together in a set up can be more functional than a team who proved it- whilst winning trebles- is as daft a comment as i've seen from you.
Sheep Draft R1: harms vs. Arbitrium - Voting closed
- Thread starter green_smiley
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Decided to answer the points that you've made here earlier, but I don't think that I'll continue this discussion with you — only if I'll be interested in the topic. I get that you get competitive (I often do), but I'm not interested in throwing pointless accusations and badmouthing opposition's players just to see what sticks. It isn't really worth anyone's time.
Re: Matthäus
His role at Inter — an auxiliary number 10 who spends most of his time battling in midfield but often runs forward into the space created by 2 forwards in front of him.
Easily. Barcelona's backline was never a fulcrum for their success but rather a surplus to requirements with a few fun mistakes every season. That's why they played fecking Yaya Toure as a center back in the CL final or seamlessly put Mascherano in without any consequences. They only started losing when Xavi and then Iniesta grew old. The only really crucial player there is Alves — but not because of his defending.
If you think that putting De Rossi in place of Xavi puts less pressure on your defence, we're talking about different sports. I really don't know how anyone can say that Fulvio and Iniesta were "probably comparable", considering Iniesta's crucial and unique role for that team. It's on you to prove that he was and not on me to prove that he wasn't.
Re: Matthäus
His role at Inter — an auxiliary number 10 who spends most of his time battling in midfield but often runs forward into the space created by 2 forwards in front of him.
Neeskens in 1974's Netherlands — a very similar role by another box-to-box dynamo
- Ehm... yes.
- Considering that he played more as a center back in back fours than he did in back fives, I'd hazard a guess that he would be comfortable there, yes. I was never impressed with him offensively (hence why I prefer other Germans for left back position), he was pretty much flawless defensively.
- My whole team is limiting Ronaldo's impact, not just Cuccureddu. He's not going to stop Ronaldo by himself.
- As close as you can get to it, yes. The only alternatives to Masopust (Ballon d'Or winner) here are Iniesta and Charlton; for Schuster (Ballon d'Or runner up at the age of 21 and a 3rd place next season) — perhaps Neeskens or Beckham... but I'd pick Bernd for this team
- Yes. He played further forward for Belgium and his best form at Juventus came in European games, where he played as a free-roaming striker
- There are many questions about your team. I won't discuss Bernardini, as I know next to nothing about him, but De Rossi is better as a passing defensive midfielder, Abidal never was much of use offensively and Cristiano always played with an overlapping fullback.
Easily. Barcelona's backline was never a fulcrum for their success but rather a surplus to requirements with a few fun mistakes every season. That's why they played fecking Yaya Toure as a center back in the CL final or seamlessly put Mascherano in without any consequences. They only started losing when Xavi and then Iniesta grew old. The only really crucial player there is Alves — but not because of his defending.
If you think that putting De Rossi in place of Xavi puts less pressure on your defence, we're talking about different sports. I really don't know how anyone can say that Fulvio and Iniesta were "probably comparable", considering Iniesta's crucial and unique role for that team. It's on you to prove that he was and not on me to prove that he wasn't.
@harms
All you've shown me there is an example of two formations that aren't the one you're using. one is total football, the other zona mista (i think) with bianchi and berti the closest midfielders to him. I'm pretty sure they were quite happy with any water carrying that enabled Matthaus to be at his best, but with schuster and masopust there it seems like overkill in an area you didn't need it.
With regards your initial comment, you need a thicker skin. I've done nothing so far but ask genuine questions about my concerns with your team and their tactics, and asked you for your honest opinion on things. you're probably sitting thinking i'm going to throw silly arguments your way for the sake of it but the reality is I think your team is really lacking here. I might not express some of it in a way you like but thats besides the point.
Looking forward to your piece on cudicini.
All you've shown me there is an example of two formations that aren't the one you're using. one is total football, the other zona mista (i think) with bianchi and berti the closest midfielders to him. I'm pretty sure they were quite happy with any water carrying that enabled Matthaus to be at his best, but with schuster and masopust there it seems like overkill in an area you didn't need it.
With regards your initial comment, you need a thicker skin. I've done nothing so far but ask genuine questions about my concerns with your team and their tactics, and asked you for your honest opinion on things. you're probably sitting thinking i'm going to throw silly arguments your way for the sake of it but the reality is I think your team is really lacking here. I might not express some of it in a way you like but thats besides the point.
Looking forward to your piece on cudicini.
If I want to be very creative, I'd say that we have an Ukrainian version of Die Mannshaft 1990 with
- the central playmakers Masopust+Schuster = Littbarski + Hassler
- 2 guys upfront Blokhin+Boniek = Klinsmann+Voller
In a certain sense, Matthaus is asked to have a similar role
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i was just going to say that. The Kiev approach with Matthaus replacing Kolotov as the box to box is basically the 1990 German midfield( Bein-Matthaus-Hassler until Bein got injured and littbarski and thon stepped in) concept, but with a DM/extra CM behind. The back 4 vs 5 doesn't change how the midfield plays much.
I'd agree it's a good setup to get the best out of Lothar, especially compared to mid-80s Bayern and Germany lineups which often left him with too much defensive responsibility and was capable of being less than the sum of the parts in midfield for the big games imo( Everton and Porto defeats in CWC/EC and poor play considering the great talent on show in most games at 86 world cup) until it clicked in the 1990 cycle.
@harms
Decent showing from abidal here in terms of his ability on the ball here, and when he does get forward;
This passage of play is perfectly conceivable in this game given the fluidity of my front three and your much weaker full back on abidals side. Whilst he wasn’t always renowned for his attacking contribution he did have it in him and this game would free that side of him up.
Then we go to the other side. Dani Alves doesn’t have to defend against an out and out winger or an overlapping full back so his defensive nous here doesn’t need to be considered. What absolutely does though is his attacking contribution. Just how do you plan on stopping him controlling the right side?
Decent showing from abidal here in terms of his ability on the ball here, and when he does get forward;
This passage of play is perfectly conceivable in this game given the fluidity of my front three and your much weaker full back on abidals side. Whilst he wasn’t always renowned for his attacking contribution he did have it in him and this game would free that side of him up.
Then we go to the other side. Dani Alves doesn’t have to defend against an out and out winger or an overlapping full back so his defensive nous here doesn’t need to be considered. What absolutely does though is his attacking contribution. Just how do you plan on stopping him controlling the right side?
refreshing to see Lothar in his best role
The comments from harms about his defence functioning better than mine are really baffling.
"Based on all the players at their peak"
So right away, we are considering the Hans Briegel, KHS, Hansen and Cuccureddu at their peaks. To be honest, it's pretty impressive individually but other than KHS I wouldn't say its anything to write home about.
Then we consider my defence at their peak, which from a defensive standpoint was as good a collective unit as there has been since the turn of the millennium. So all the players are at their best, and they actually played together leaving pretty much everyone who came before them in their wake.
I basically have a draft cheat code here if we are going to assess the game in the spirit of the bolded at the top. The questions that you have to ask in drafts are "How well would it function" and "Is it their best position/set up". You literally cant ask that about my defence. It works.
"Based on all the players at their peak"
So right away, we are considering the Hans Briegel, KHS, Hansen and Cuccureddu at their peaks. To be honest, it's pretty impressive individually but other than KHS I wouldn't say its anything to write home about.
Then we consider my defence at their peak, which from a defensive standpoint was as good a collective unit as there has been since the turn of the millennium. So all the players are at their best, and they actually played together leaving pretty much everyone who came before them in their wake.
I basically have a draft cheat code here if we are going to assess the game in the spirit of the bolded at the top. The questions that you have to ask in drafts are "How well would it function" and "Is it their best position/set up". You literally cant ask that about my defence. It works.
You're reaching here mate. Juventus, Atletico etc are teams built on their strong defence. If your first thought of that Barcelona side is the defence, you need help.
And whilst this isnt a direct remake of Barcelona 08-11, lets do a comparison of the players ahead of the defence
Toninho V Busquets. choose your poison really, not much to separate if we take team accomplishments out the equation
De Rossi V De Xavi- No contest, but its still a hall of famer and world cup winner there, playing alongside 3 other hall of famers
Bernardini v iniesta- hard to really evaluate. If you go down a bernardini wormhole all youll find is evidence of him being one of the highest regarded footballers of all time.
Lato V Pedro- No contest
Totti V Messi- No Contest
Ronaldo v whatever left forward- No contest
So as far as overall function goes, yes the two biggest parts in Xavi and Messi are irreplaceable really but in terms of overall skill level the XI's arent that far apart.
Toninho V Busquets. choose your poison really, not much to separate if we take team accomplishments out the equation
De Rossi V De Xavi- No contest, but its still a hall of famer and world cup winner there, playing alongside 3 other hall of famers
Bernardini v iniesta- hard to really evaluate. If you go down a bernardini wormhole all youll find is evidence of him being one of the highest regarded footballers of all time.
Lato V Pedro- No contest
Totti V Messi- No Contest
Ronaldo v whatever left forward- No contest
So as far as overall function goes, yes the two biggest parts in Xavi and Messi are irreplaceable really but in terms of overall skill level the XI's arent that far apart.
All i'm saying is it functions extremely well.
For that specific side yes. They hardly ever had to defend due to dominating possession constantly.
Do you feel you'd dominate possession here against that array of midfielders?
When I have it, yep, 100%. Masopust and Schuster wont pull wide enough, meaning I have an easy outlet to Alves or Abidal at any point both of whom are extremely confident on the ball.
I mean more when you haven't got the ball, Schuster and Masopust can rotate that ball for fun. And test that back 4 more than they ever have been during their prime.
This is the best way i can quantify it.
Im sure harms would admit that "Crossing" isnt a tactic he'd be using much. Blokhin wasn't renowned for heading, Boniek wasnt an out and out poacher and none of the attacking mids are renowned for their ability to get in the box and win a header from a cross. The main issue there would be whos crossing it, because based on what i know of those players, that cluster of Masopust, Matthaus, Schuster and Boniek is a fairly probable outcome. The full backs don't offer effective overlaps, therefore naturally Harms team is going to go through the middle. Now thats fine when it works, but as you can see i'll have the numbers there to compete, but whats really telling is that when I do win it back the outlet is there on either side in Alves or Abidal. harms doesn't have left/right sided midfielders/wingers so he's literally letting a pair of modern full backs have full autonomy on their flanks.
Now obviously i'm sure harms full backs might get a bit further forward than on the graphic, i did it that way to illustrate their influence on harms offensive phase. its through the middle every single time, and when that breaks down, the level of exploitation I have on the wings is frightening, with Lato and Ronaldo absolutely guaranteed to be influential on this game. And need I remind anyone that Ronaldo against any of harms defenders is a free pass for me. Harms says that Ronaldo needs an overlapping full back, well thankfully he's left Abidal enough room to do that from time to time without much fear of a counter attack coming down his side.
Actually I'm not sure it is. Looks very much like the tip of a diamond despite the graphics. He was a quasi #10 in Inter in a free role. Here he's more like a full time #10, which I don't buy.refreshing to see Lothar in his best role
Also this was an odd template to build on. Lobovonsky was more famous for his 4-4-2 than this. Also he made his impression for technical reasons than tactical ones. Refreshing though. I had read on Lobovonsky before and managed to read more now. Kudos to harms for that.
I still think harms team would be better with a F9 instead of Matthaus.
@harms
Do you have anything on Stielike? Just had a look at his time with Real Madrid and he scored a pretty good amount of goals which he didn’t come close to replicating nationally or at his other two clubs.
Do you have anything on Stielike? Just had a look at his time with Real Madrid and he scored a pretty good amount of goals which he didn’t come close to replicating nationally or at his other two clubs.
It's not a tip of a usual diamond. It's a converted diamond — #10 goes deeper (Matthäus), side midfielders go further up and take most of the creative burden. You let the fact that he is in the AMs spot on the graphic confuse you, but in reality he played in exactly this zone for Inter, at his very peak. I've quoted Invictus' picture already, and it was pretty much spot on. As I stated in my write up, he's playing in midfield full time — and actually participates centrally more than Schuster and Masopust, who also cover wide channels.
Take a look at his goalscoring. He needs to be unleashed, and he almost never is in those drafts.
As for a template — both Lobanovsky and Maslov used and for me it's closer to his ideal set up (although it's also about the personnel — I rate 70's side higher). Not sure if he was more famous for his 4-4-2. I think that formation is secondary with him though, the key is to make sure that you stay true to his ideas.
A 4-1-3-2, very much like mine. Sheva joins Blokhin up front; Zavarov-Buryak-Veremeev as a midfield three, Konkov — controlling DM and a sweeper/stopper back 4
That is a question for our German questions. Different roles and different partners, I guess. I think he often played as a CB/SW for Germany while for Real he was usually their main midfield general. Most of his Madrid goals came in his first season (13). Perhaps Pirri played deeper then.
Joga made a few compilations some time ago
Theres a few voters who have voted against me every single draft and not commented once in the thread 
@harms
two things i'd love your thoughts on.
1) I think Alves has a good game here. What are your plans for limiting his attacking influence?
2) It looks like your attacking players all favour being central. is this the case or are there offering any kind of touchline width?
two things i'd love your thoughts on.
1) I think Alves has a good game here. What are your plans for limiting his attacking influence?
2) It looks like your attacking players all favour being central. is this the case or are there offering any kind of touchline width?
I love Lato personally. A player these drafts really gave me an opportunity to appreciate. One of those rare breed of players whose game rises to the high pressure occasions. Great team player who always contributes
I love Arbitrium‘s attack and I like his midfield. The problem is the midfield pales in comparison to harm‘s GOAT heavy midfield.
I don‘t like Arbitrium‘s defence, in fact I don‘t rate any of the 4 very highly (except for Alves in attack) and I think their reputation has been massively enlarged by possibly the greatest midfield ever in front of them coupled with relentless pressing tactics. You could see it with Pique, who was still in his prime years but got exposed on a daily basis once Barca lost their ultimate midfield dominance because of the aging of Xavi and Iniesta (and bad tactics).
I haven‘t had enough time to think about harms‘ tactics, seems complicated to me
I don‘t like Arbitrium‘s defence, in fact I don‘t rate any of the 4 very highly (except for Alves in attack) and I think their reputation has been massively enlarged by possibly the greatest midfield ever in front of them coupled with relentless pressing tactics. You could see it with Pique, who was still in his prime years but got exposed on a daily basis once Barca lost their ultimate midfield dominance because of the aging of Xavi and Iniesta (and bad tactics).
I haven‘t had enough time to think about harms‘ tactics, seems complicated to me
Remember we consider the players at their peak. We are talking about players who between them have won everything possible to win.
There is no debating the midfield battle, The players are simply on a different level (though its hard to know just how good bernardini really was and cerezo is a bit underrated) but when picking my players I wanted familiarity and a team that would run through a wall for you. Thats why Lato got picked, and thats why I made the midfield 3 all Roma hall of famers. you dont get the respect and recognition of that clubs fans/hierarchy unless you gave everything to the club and were willing to die for the first. Roma is one of those clubs out there that Barca's "mes que un club" applies to, and you have someone like toninho who shows up as a manager wearing a totti jersey to the adorning roma fans. Totti as the captain just brings all that together.
So after taking care of familiarity (often overlooked in drafts) and willingness to fight tooth and nail, all that remains is an xfactor, and who better in this draft than Cristiano Ronaldo.
I'd be a pretty passionate manager, and this team would absolutely get what it means to play with the team Arbitrium badge on their chest
So after taking care of familiarity (often overlooked in drafts) and willingness to fight tooth and nail, all that remains is an xfactor, and who better in this draft than Cristiano Ronaldo.
I'd be a pretty passionate manager, and this team would absolutely get what it means to play with the team Arbitrium badge on their chest
@harms is the 4-1-3-2 used just to underline the high press?
Because it looks more like a 4-4-2 diamond to me. I'd usually associate 4-1-3-2 with those three behind the strikers being more of a forwards rather than midfielders. In your case both Masopust and Schuster are midfielders rather than forwards.
For example I'd have Boniek instead of Schuster and someone like Nedved instead of Masopust. Still hard workers but closer to forwards in their roles rather than the more deeperish Schuster or Masopust.
At his peak I'd have Matthaus as the most advanced midfielder in 4-3-3 so that he has freedom but is not that close to the goal as a designated #10.
Because it looks more like a 4-4-2 diamond to me. I'd usually associate 4-1-3-2 with those three behind the strikers being more of a forwards rather than midfielders. In your case both Masopust and Schuster are midfielders rather than forwards.
For example I'd have Boniek instead of Schuster and someone like Nedved instead of Masopust. Still hard workers but closer to forwards in their roles rather than the more deeperish Schuster or Masopust.
At his peak I'd have Matthaus as the most advanced midfielder in 4-3-3 so that he has freedom but is not that close to the goal as a designated #10.
you're not the first to have questions about his set-up. It's confusing to say the least.
Actually think Hansen is quite underrated here (Along with a lot of the Liverpool contingent from that era)
To the match itself, I am with you that Ronaldo will have a good match but feel harms has enough fire power to outscore you.
Additionally feel he’s likely to control the midfield more often than not and hence my vote
Like Harms’ shape. Some conventions on here dictate that 4-man midfields need to be either flat or diamond and nothing inbetween. But there are so many great examples out there with different variations of 4-man units.
For Arbitrium, Ronaldo on didgeridoo looks like a bloodbath but I’m not sold on the great man seeing enough of the ball with that midfield strangling things. The attack is brilliantly designed though, few better than Totti to play that gig.
For Arbitrium, Ronaldo on didgeridoo looks like a bloodbath but I’m not sold on the great man seeing enough of the ball with that midfield strangling things. The attack is brilliantly designed though, few better than Totti to play that gig.
Does anyone have info on harms goalkeeper? Scoured and scoured and cant find any reason why he never got called up for Italy, but Milan consider him one of their greatest...
The arguement that was put forward around that Guardiola era Barca defense's effectiveness being based off of midfield control and dominating possession which I don't think will be the case here as I think @harms team does better in the midfield battle.
Sorry, Arbit bro. My eyes were blinded by harms' star-studded midfield and attack. They abstractly made my mind thought that formation could actually work.
PS: I had Hansen in one draft before. Did some watching, and the fecker could actually play some football, to put it mildly. Almost as good as Smalling.