Shea Lacey

Playing U20 kids just for the sake of giving experience is possible when situation is regular, when you win games with solid margins and you have 10-15 minutes a game when you have 3 goals lead and can risk with playing kid or two to seal out a game, resting first team players. We win games scraping wins in the last minute.

Even in that situation he is playing U20 players. Garnacho is regular. Hannibal is getting his minutes, maybe not as much as he would like, but he is getting meaningful minutes and even starts. Mainoo would probably get minutes if not injured.

Also, Pellistri is getting minutes, although he is U21, but not with a lot of experience. Amad would probably get minutes if not injured also U21.

And to be honest those players are the ones above others in our U21 squad. Players you could say they are obviously in reserve games above that level. You can not say for any other player in our reserve squad that he is deserving minutes in the first team above those 5. Maybe you can make a point on Alvaro Fernandes, but he is getting minutes on loan. Beside that, I would really doubt to see any of 20 years old in our reserve squad getting minutes with first team. Next one would probably be Gore if develops well.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Who are these “very talented 20 year olds” not being given a fair crack of the whip by ETH? Our most talented youngster by far is Garnacho, who’s had a loads of opportunities to nail down a place in our best XI. If anything, too many.
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Hannibal don't really get a sniff and mctom is favoured, Garner was sold because he was too young to solve our midfield issues. Mengi (this one is controversial but my own opinion) was shipped off because he had a few injuries and obviously a 20 year old cb not really going to overtake Evans. We could of seen maybe a few more mins for gore, fernandez could have stayed instead of getting regulion, the gk who went Germany could of stayed but instead we got a more seasoned and older back up ... there are plenty of example where you could maybe assume he does not trust the youth. My 20 year old example was more for hannibal and a pellistri.
 
If we won't see anything from Amad until the end of the season he could comfortably can train with the senior team and maybe even join next pre season.
 
khoazany said:
Weird post. Both Garnacho and Hannibal are around 20, not counting singings like Hollund. The only one that you could argue should have been given chances instead is Fernandez. Forson is same age as Garnacho but I don't think he's at the level of too good to not be given chances. Laird and Mengi - right decision from them to leave as injuries screwed their development and you can't have that much time at a club like United.
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Interested to know if you thoughts have changed somewhat on Mengi?

Mengi, Garner and Elanga are having really good seasons.
 
Interested to know if you thoughts have changed somewhat on Mengi?

I would have kept Mengi and sold Lindelof
 
TheReligion said:
Interested to know if you thoughts have changed somewhat on Mengi?

Mengi, Garner and Elanga are having really good seasons.
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That’s largely because they’re playing away from United. Players need to be playing every week in their early 20’s and while they’ve been playing well for relegation level teams, there’s nothing much to suggest they’d improve what we already have.
 
Dan_F said:
That’s largely because they’re playing away from United. Players need to be playing every week in their early 20’s and while they’ve been playing well for relegation level teams, there’s nothing much to suggest they’d improve what we already have.
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This is true although I think we may have been forced to sell players we might have loaned out in the past because we’re so up against it in terms of FFP. Feels like ages since last loaned anyone to a PL club. As well as Mengi and Elanga, Kovar is another one who it would have made sense to hold onto a bit longer if we could. Even if only to inflate their value ahead of an eventual transfer.
 
Dan_F said:
That’s largely because they’re playing away from United. Players need to be playing every week in their early 20’s and while they’ve been playing well for relegation level teams, there’s nothing much to suggest they’d improve what we already have.
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I think both Garner and Mengi could be playing a part for us now.

Injuries didn’t help at bad times, especially with Mengi, but both are positions we need.
 
I’m pleased to hear that both Garner and Mengi are doing well and developing as players. Not sure they would have had the chance to if they hadn’t left so good for them. As a fan of internal promotions though I’d would have liked both of them to be part of the squad here now.

I’m hoping we plan better for the next generation who come through in that they either get loans that lead to squad integration or insert clauses into contracts that allow them to return easier.

We did with Kovar I believe so maybe we are learning.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I’m pleased to hear that both Garner and Mengi are doing well and developing as players. Not sure they would have had the chance to if they hadn’t left so good for them. As a fan of internal promotions though I’d would have liked both of them to be part of the squad here now.

I’m hoping we plan better for the next generation who come through in that they either get loans that lead to squad integration or insert clauses into contracts that allow them to return easier.

We did with Kovar I believe so maybe we are learning.
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Both Mengi and Garner were unlucky I think.

Mengi kept getting injured and had his last loan cut short. It will be interesting to see if he can play a full season for Luton without any hamstring issues.

Garner also picked up an injury in pre season when Ten Hag arrived from memory and didn’t feature on tour. A decision then had to be made and the club was also keen to claw back some money for FFP.

These things can be as much about timing and opportunity as talent I feel. Both could quite easily be in and around the first team at this moment in time but I do think at the point they were sold it was likely the correct decision.

That said I’d like to think if they continue to rise we will look at getting them back home.
 
TheReligion said:
Both Mengi and Garner were unlucky I think.

Mengi kept getting injured and had his last loan cut short. It will be interesting to see if he can play a full season for Luton without any hamstring issues.

Garner also picked up an injury in pre season when Ten Hag arrived from memory and didn’t feature on tour. A decision then had to be made and the club was also keen to claw back some money for FFP.

These things can be as much about timing and opportunity as talent I feel. Both could quite easily be in and around the first team at this moment in time but I do think at the point they were sold it was likely the correct decision.

That said I’d like to think if they continue to rise we will look at getting them back home.
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I definitely agree with that. In fact I’d say injuries have blighted a lot of talent we have had come through the system. Rossi and Tuenzebe of the top of my head.

It’s interesting that you mention timing also as these players have to be available when the chances do come and both have been unfortunate in that the team hasn’t been settled either so any transition has been difficult.

When you watch them with the youth teams you get a feel for character and want them to do well even if it’s not for us but I think it’s a benefit to have a squad with players knowledgeable in the culture and dynamics.

I’m on a recruitment mission to bring all the boys home and still push for Gomes haha wishful thinking I know..
 
TheReligion said:
Both Mengi and Garner were unlucky I think.

Mengi kept getting injured and had his last loan cut short. It will be interesting to see if he can play a full season for Luton without any hamstring issues.

Garner also picked up an injury in pre season when Ten Hag arrived from memory and didn’t feature on tour. A decision then had to be made and the club was also keen to claw back some money for FFP.

These things can be as much about timing and opportunity as talent I feel. Both could quite easily be in and around the first team at this moment in time but I do think at the point they were sold it was likely the correct decision.

That said I’d like to think if they continue to rise we will look at getting them back home.
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They're good players but they're not world beaters. We have space for some players that are just good but we can't keep all of them. What we need most is world beaters.
 
Red00012 said:
No they wouldn’t
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Mengi definitely would have gotten a chance when we had everyone but Evans and Maguire out. Garner would have gotten a chance too, he is a better midfielder than McTominay.
 
3KDré said:
Mengi definitely would have gotten a chance when we had everyone but Evans and Maguire out. Garner would have gotten a chance too, he is a better midfielder than McTominay.
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Mengi looked like a beast when he was coming through, looked a genuine natural. When he came back from injury he was nervous, poor on the ball and not as keen to challenge. Hes finding his feet now because he's playing every week. If he was sitting on our bench waiting for a chance he would be just as nervous as he was post injury.

I had high hopes for Garner but I think a couple years in the prem we will get a proper view as to how good he is.
 
TheReligion said:
Both Mengi and Garner were unlucky I think.

Mengi kept getting injured and had his last loan cut short. It will be interesting to see if he can play a full season for Luton without any hamstring issues.

Garner also picked up an injury in pre season when Ten Hag arrived from memory and didn’t feature on tour. A decision then had to be made and the club was also keen to claw back some money for FFP.

These things can be as much about timing and opportunity as talent I feel. Both could quite easily be in and around the first team at this moment in time but I do think at the point they were sold it was likely the correct decision.

That said I’d like to think if they continue to rise we will look at getting them back home.
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It wasn't just that Mengi kept getting injured. Mengi at 16-17 looked like a potential United-player, but at 19 he didn't even look impressive in the reserves anymore. He was the player who had a go at everyone around him, and made the majority of the mistakes himself. If he has finally turned a corner - I am happy for him, but nothing he has done over the last 3 years has been good enough to suggest that he was even close to playing for a top club in the Premiership.
 
TheReligion said:
I think both Garner and Mengi could be playing a part for us now.

Injuries didn’t help at bad times, especially with Mengi, but both are positions we need.
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Think they'd be seeing similar minutes that Hannibal is seeing. In my opinion they both made the right decision to leave, they needed consistent game time.
 
AltiUn said:
Think they'd be seeing similar minutes that Hannibal is seeing. In my opinion they both made the right decision to leave, they needed consistent game time.
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Yes this is the issue. If the manager doesnt want to put a player in because he prefers senior players they cant do a decent job. This is one of the good things about Garnacho and Mainoo is that ETH quickly chose them as his players and was willing to put them in over senior teammates. Thats not the case with most young players and if we sold them, other than Elanga who played a bunch but just didnt the business for him, then usually selling them is a good indication that the manager never had any intention of playing them over current options
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This is true although I think we may have been forced to sell players we might have loaned out in the past because we’re so up against it in terms of FFP. Feels like ages since last loaned anyone to a PL club. As well as Mengi and Elanga, Kovar is another one who it would have made sense to hold onto a bit longer if we could. Even if only to inflate their value ahead of an eventual transfer.
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TheReligion said:
I think both Garner and Mengi could be playing a part for us now.

Injuries didn’t help at bad times, especially with Mengi, but both are positions we need.
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I think we learnt lessons from Tuanzebe. Centre back is such a tough position to break through at a top team, and being injury prone is not going to help. I don’t see how we could have possibly gone into the season with Mengi as forth choice, given we had Varane with his injury record, Maguire being horribly out of form and Martinez coming back from a broken bone.

Garner is nowhere near the level needed to win titles, FFP or not, he was prime for selling and the club finally cashed in on the academy. Do you honestly think anyone would pay more than £15 million for him right now?
 
TheReligion said:
Interested to know if you thoughts have changed somewhat on Mengi?

Mengi, Garner and Elanga are having really good seasons.
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He got the best move that he could (there is no other PL club would take on a 21yo injury-prone defender with only like half a season of Championship experience) and is developing rapidly. He would have warming the bench (or not even manage to) at United or being shipped out on loan to the Championship otherwise. That's exactly what I said it's the best move for both parties.
 
Close to return. A nice boost for the U18s in a position they perhaps need some added quality.
 
top1whoisman said:
Close to return. A nice boost for the U18s in a position they perhaps need some added quality.
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Will be good to see him back, he’s a very enjoyable player to watch.
 
That's good news about Lacey.

Be nice to have him back for the run in. The U18's have been great to watch this season, but Lacey brings something different to most and it will be good to see him back.
 
Serious talent, its going to be interesting to see how far he can go. A joy to watch, has the skills to glide around the pitch, needs to grow a little and bulk up , can see him training with the 1st team squad before season end.
 
Mylock said:
Serious talent, its going to be interesting to see how far he can go. A joy to watch, has the skills to glide around the pitch, needs to grow a little and bulk up , can see him training with the 1st team squad before season end.
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kids play in a style similar to when you first saw foden break thru at city
 
khoazany said:
I think the output is gonna separate him from the likes of Angel Gomes. He seems to always score or assist regardless of whether he fades out of the game.
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Gomes for United:

U18 PL 2061 minutes | 14+7 | g/a every 98 minutes
UYL 1020 minutes | 4+3 | g/a every 146 minutes
PL2 2026 minutes | 10+7 | g/a every 119 minutes
(England U17 746 minutes | 6+3 | g/a every 83 minutes)

Lacey for United:

U18 PL 1263 minutes | 5+5 | g/a every 126 minutes
UYL 92 minutes | 0+1 | g/a every 92 minutes
(England U17 297 minutes | 3+3 | g/a every 50 minutes)

Gomes’ output was very good on all youth levels. In the competition that has so far been Lacey’s main one, Gomes was more efficient despite playing almost 800 minutes more than Lacey so far.

Lacey has a huge amount of talent and he is very efficient too, but Gomes was amazing for the U18s. Both how he dominated the games as well as his output in goals and assists.
 
top1whoisman said:
Gomes for United:

U18 PL 2061 minutes | 14+7 | g/a every 98 minutes
UYL 1020 minutes | 4+3 | g/a every 146 minutes
PL2 2026 minutes | 10+7 | g/a every 119 minutes
(England U17 746 minutes | 6+3 | g/a every 83 minutes)

Lacey for United:

U18 PL 1263 minutes | 5+5 | g/a every 126 minutes
UYL 92 minutes | 0+1 | g/a every 92 minutes
(England U17 297 minutes | 3+3 | g/a every 50 minutes)

Gomes’ output was very good on all youth levels. In the competition that has so far been Lacey’s main one, Gomes was more efficient despite playing almost 800 minutes more than Lacey so far.

Lacey has a huge amount of talent and he is very efficient too, but Gomes was amazing for the U18s. Both how he dominated the games as well as his output in goals and assists.
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Gomes used to take a lot of penalties, if you take them out then Gomes goes to G/A every 115 minutes in the U18 PL.

All of his Youth League goals were set pieces. Not that that means Gomes wasn't good or the better talent, just shows Lacey is either just behind or surpassing him from open play.
 
AltiUn said:
Gomes used to take a lot of penalties, if you take them out then Gomes goes to G/A every 115 minutes in the U18 PL.

All of his Youth League goals were set pieces. Not that that means Gomes wasn't good or the better talent, just shows Lacey is either just behind or surpassing him from open play.
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So still better than Lacey’s numbers.

And it’s not like set piece goals don’t take a lot of effort too. Lacey has a few set piece assists, should those be exluded too?

Anyway both great talents, just disagree with Lacey being superior when it comes to output.
 
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top1whoisman said:
So still better than Lacey’s numbers.

And it’s not like set piece goals don’t take a lot of effort too. Lacey has a few set piece assists, should those be exluded too?

Anyway both great talents, just disagree with Lacey being superior when it comes to output.
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Honestly, I don't find padding your stats with penalties that impressive, no.
 
top1whoisman said:
Winning games with high-pressure penalties? Free kicks?
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Penalties are objectively easy chances, it's why they have a 0.76 xG.

FK's are very skilled, but Gomes only has 1 FK goal at youth level so it's not like he was banging them in like Beckham every week, the majority of his set piece goals were pens.

Maybe that season Fernandes scored 20 odd penalties has scarred me but I just don't find them that impressive, I'm always much more interested in how a player does in open play as you're not guaranteed a penalty every game whereas you're virtually always going to have a few open play chances.
 
AltiUn said:
Penalties are objectively easy chances, it's why they have a 0.76 xG.

FK's are very skilled, but Gomes only has 1 FK goal at youth level so it's not like he was banging them in like Beckham every week, the majority of his set piece goals were pens.

Maybe that season Fernandes scored 20 odd penalties has scarred me but I just don't find them that impressive, I'm always much more interested in how a player does in open play as you're not guaranteed a penalty every game whereas you're virtually always going to have a few open play chances.
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I get you, absolutely what players can do from open play gives a more rounded picture of their abilities.

But is sounds like the bolded wasn’t the case with Gomes. As mentioned, his U18 numbers are still better than Lacey, after excluding the penalties.

I would absolutely love it if Lacey surpassed his output both with the U18s and U21s. But until he does, I just struggle to see how efficiency separates Lacey from Gomes.
 
top1whoisman said:
Gomes for United:

U18 PL 2061 minutes | 14+7 | g/a every 98 minutes
UYL 1020 minutes | 4+3 | g/a every 146 minutes
PL2 2026 minutes | 10+7 | g/a every 119 minutes
(England U17 746 minutes | 6+3 | g/a every 83 minutes)

Lacey for United:

U18 PL 1263 minutes | 5+5 | g/a every 126 minutes
UYL 92 minutes | 0+1 | g/a every 92 minutes
(England U17 297 minutes | 3+3 | g/a every 50 minutes)

Gomes’ output was very good on all youth levels. In the competition that has so far been Lacey’s main one, Gomes was more efficient despite playing almost 800 minutes more than Lacey so far.

Lacey has a huge amount of talent and he is very efficient too, but Gomes was amazing for the U18s. Both how he dominated the games as well as his output in goals and assists.
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Don't forget that so far, all of Lacey's U18 stats are as a 15 or 16 year old - most of them as a 15 year old due to his injury this year.

I'm not sure about Gomes' exact age for his 2000+ U18 minutes, but suspect on average he was older.

So it's not really fair to compare the stats at this point.
 
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