Great idea!! I will and report back!
Self delusion or monumental cock up?
- Thread starter sammsky1
- Start date
Thats where you are wrong. None of the worthy managers out there dared to follow fergie after his retirement. A drought like this was expected somewhere down the line. I hope whoever comes in next can get us out of this slump.
Half of Moyes problem was trying to live up to some daft "Man Utd way" chalk on boots wingers, 4-4-2 etc, etc. Bollocks..
No worries
I don't think Moyes is stupid, he was simply way way out of his depth.
It's abit like asking me to drive a Formula 1 racing car when I've only ever driven my BMW X5!!
It will be a horrific car crash and there would be mess and blood!
Had he stuck with his own style of play(Everton played nice football at times, tbf), a 4-2-3-1 with narrow wingers, he'd have probably got on better(and the fans maybe would have been happier) rather than try to be something he's not.
Moyes ripped out the coaching staff, ignoring Fergie's advice. Of course he was stupid. Monumentally so..
No worries
I don't think Moyes is stupid, he was simply way way out of his depth.
It's abit like asking me to drive a Formula 1 racing car when I've only ever driven my BMW X5!!
It will be a horrific car crash and there would be mess and blood!
That alone set us back massively. The three people who together formed the bulk of footballing management of the club - all gone at once. No wonder that nobody knows how to run this club anymore.
That's what I also expected, with a fail safe to also acquire another top striker after one season depending on Van Persie and Welbecks evolution.
But misjudging Rooneys ability to contribute to the required standard by both Moyes and LVG has been the most monumental cock up of all.
So frustrating as the great old man specifically told them and even delivers the necessary and difficult PR work to make it acceptable with fans and sponsors.
True, and unfortunately we hired the biggest chump out there.
Yeah. Of course you're right.
With Gill, SAF, Phelen, McClair and Rene (and a few others) all gone within a few weeks of each other, we lost over 100 years of collective footballing knowledge, team work and know how.
Just let that sink in for a few seconds ... It's nuts.
So when fans now rightfully observe and complain that our footballing side of the club is an unidentifiable mess, this is clearly the reason why.
Not only have we downgraded the quality of our squad after SAF left, the entire footballing support staff is also significantly weaker.
There was no transition at all, it was a miserable blood bath: Moyes got rid of all the key staff and LVG swept out all of the players!
Last edited:
squad needed help at fb and at ctr midf in a big way. added only wiggy in the summer and not early overpaid big style. mata in Jan. wrong player at the wrong time and paid too much. two players we really didn't address needs first. fecked it the first season after fergie left. mostly down to DFM.
since then plenty of players in but too many sold in areas of need. so we are back in the same spot as when fergie left. a squad that still needs 4-6 players to "freshen it up". over spent on squad type players and paid premiums on very good young players. 300m quid. 100m or more to make it whole. that's without selling anyone.
since then plenty of players in but too many sold in areas of need. so we are back in the same spot as when fergie left. a squad that still needs 4-6 players to "freshen it up". over spent on squad type players and paid premiums on very good young players. 300m quid. 100m or more to make it whole. that's without selling anyone.
We could even have gone for Pellegrinni who had done very well at Malaga that season and has since showed his worth at City.
Last edited:
He wasn't deluded, but he probably didn't factor in the reality that the players he had in the final years were only capable of being managed at a trophy winning level by Fergie himself. It wouldn't work under Moyes or LvG, or even Pep or Mourinho.
Would it have worked if Moyes had kept SAFs staff and not meddled too much with tactics and training? I seem to remember that's how Liverpool managed their boot room transitions.
I doubt it would have. Fergie was a one off and had a special relationship with the players where they would punch well above their collective weight for him, which wouldn't work with any lesser manager.
I still think it wouldn't have worked out. For one thing, Moyes strikes me as the type who'd do the travelling abroad, make big claims about how he's open to new ideas ...and then sign the likes of Charlie Adam or some stalwart clogger. He's too parochial in his outlook, IMO.
Yeah his aura and magnetic nature was unique and special. I remember when I very briefly met him and shook his hand, the atmosphere in the room was electric.
Can't even imagine what it would be like actually playing for him, let alone being one of his favoured one who got compliments and pay increases!
He alone made them feel like they were 10 feet tall and built of steel.
Last edited:
Neither nor. I think SAF was pretty much aware of the many 'construction sides' at United. But you cannot expect a retiring manager to say something along the lines of:
"I'm well aware that United's squad is past it's prime and the title is the result of a lot of luck, my unrivaled qualities as a manager to get the maximum out of players and other contenders not fullfilling their potential.
I'm also aware that our youth set-up is not as bright as we've portrayed it and needs a major overhaul.
Last but not least, I ask the fans to get real and don't expect United to comfortably win trophies in the near future. I wish my successor the best of luck because he'll certainly need it."
It's been an all round shit-show the second Fergie put his feet up. A CEO who was effectively learning on the job and a manager hired way above his competence level, alongside the complete dismantling of the backroom structure. Then we go and hire Rafa Benitez Dutch' out of touch cousin to replace the manager and refuse to fire him because of some romantic notion that we back managers, as if they're all like Fergie and will eventually get right. It's fecking horrific. Unless we get a competent manager in ASAP it's going to be a slow downward slide that we won't be able to recover from. Problem is, the people who can actually make these changes are busy trying us the official Indonesian rice partner. They can't actually be paying attention to what's happening on the field, because if they are they're either morons or Liverpool fans. What the feck are the Glazers doing while all this happening? They're basically on track to lose hundreds of millions of their wealth if they don't steady the ship.
Last edited:
Towards the end of his career, SAF stopped focusing as much on the details such as consistent quality of performances by individuals and more importantly, the unit, and I believe, allowed results to sway his overall opinion on the state of affairs far too much. Had he valued the football we were generally playing a little higher, I think our transition would have been much easier.
At the time, it was easy to say that Moyes and Woodward had an easy job, but in hindsight, it's quite apparent that SAF should have left a better team for his successor never mind picked a better successor himself.
I agree with you, but I also don't think he pictured us spending £65m on only Fellaini and Mata in the following two transfer windows.
Of course not. But then everyone involved should have had a better succession plan than SAF and Gill being replaced by the bang average Moyes, and finance boy Woodward. I'd love to absolve SAF of a lot of the blame, but there's so much we got wrong at the time.
That is nonsense. Yes the squad may not be a CL winning one but it was the same squad which amassed 89 points in its last two PL seasons. That is not because of 'a lot of luck'.
He was obviously the greatest manager ever but let us not delude ourselves into thinking he left the squad in an almighty mess which would mean the next manager was going to tun us into crap.
It wasn't a squad of world beaters, but he wasn't wrong, it was a good squad with a good mix of young talent and experienced winners. Not nearly as good as the squad in 07/08, but still more than good enough for a competent manager to work with.
Then followed two years of cock ups in the transfer market and on the pitch and we are in our current situation. To be fair, Herrera and especially Martial are good acquisitions, and the likes of Blind and Darmian are decent squad players, but it's no doubt we are in a worse state now than when Fergie left
Then followed two years of cock ups in the transfer market and on the pitch and we are in our current situation. To be fair, Herrera and especially Martial are good acquisitions, and the likes of Blind and Darmian are decent squad players, but it's no doubt we are in a worse state now than when Fergie left
It isn't at all, but I expect these responses from a United fan, that's perfectly normal. I just have to think of posts, full of conviction from this early season that United can win the league or the Champions league.
More importantly though, I neither wrote nor meant that SAF left the squad in an almighty mess as you implied. I wrote and mean that the title win camouflaged the state the squad was in. And I wrote and mean that I think SAF new about it but of course couldn't tell the public.
I'm not arguing that you had a good squad. I'm arguing SAF's official evaluation of the squad and their prospects. I'm also fully with you that Moyes, LvG and Woodward performed suboptimally but my point was and still is that their starting conditions weren't by far as rosy as SAF had painted the picture in public.
He also wasted ample opportunity to spend when he could. The Glazers would have had a hard time telling him no if he chose to strengthen more, especially in midfield. The fact THAT midfield won the PL says it all about Fergie's alchemy powers. We were still heavily reliant many 30+ players which, even in a best case, wouldn't be sustainable very long.
Regardless, Fergie got a few things wrong at the end and enough hasn't been done right since. I do think our squad, in the right hands, can be much better off now. We need more top quality but our "base" is in better shape for long-term improvement than when Moyes left. The squad fixing will be a smaller portion of the task for the next manager, who has to focus on improving the style and getting the results.
Deluded. But that doesn't excuse what followed.
A squad that almost won the title a year before - then actually won the title by 11 points a year later - finishes at 7th place. Not a monumental cock up? Okay.
Or maybe he decided not to spend so that he could leave a shitload of funds for the next manager?
It isn't at all, but I expect these responses from a United fan, that's perfectly normal. I just have to think of posts, full of conviction from this early season that United can win the league or the Champions league.
More importantly though, I neither wrote nor meant that SAF left the squad in an almighty mess as you implied. I wrote and mean that the title win camouflaged the state the squad was in. And I wrote and mean that I think SAF new about it but of course couldn't tell the public.
Well the way you quoted it, it seemed a much harsher version of what you are implying now.
In any case, I am sure most on here will agree that a good manager who is not as stubborn as LVG would have us doing much much better. Leicester are leading the table now and you think their squad is better than ours? It's not. It is just that they have a manager who plays to his players' strengths and is able to exact very good performances out of them.
SAF was still one of the best manager around. His man management skills were still the best and his tactics worked, mainly due to his vast knowledge of the EPL. Having said that time was starting to catch up with him. He was finding it increasingly difficult to part from his loyal players and he simply couldn't adapt into a new football world were agents had so much power over players and club. Both had costed us dearly. The former explains why he was the only one not seeing the need to add 2 new CMs (we had homegrown talent Scholes, Giggs, Cleverley, Fletcher + SAF's favourite Ando). The latter explains why we ended up with the likes of Young and Zaha instead of top quality players such as Hazard and Moura
Any decision which doesn't involve getting rid is not a objective decision.
Spending all at one go never works. A transition period would be needed to settle the new players out and such drastic change would mean that by the time you sorted one position other positions would need strengthening. It happened to us at this very moment. We sorted CM only for us needing the same sort of investment to sort the flanks and defense.
The secret is to strengthen the squad little by little, closing any gaps you may have and fine tuning the squad to perfection. TBF SAF wasn't a keen supporter to that. Soon after the treble the team needed just 2-3 quality players to dominate the CL scene. Instead we went for Lidl like signings by bringing in Bosnich to replace Schmeichel, Silvestre to succeed an ageing Irwin and Quinton Fortune to act as cover to Giggs instead of injured Blomqvist. These players were more appropriate at a club like Bolton
Yes. The issue really was that SAF genuinely felt we had a terrific squad, and us winning the league was why. The little things, understandably at his age, mattered less to him. Valencia and Young could serve up terrible performances week in week out but enough moments required to drag us past the line were enough for him to hold a high opinion of the team.
Haha. Very eloquently put. But maybe it's a it harsh. Nothing wrong with the commercial arm of the club doing well: I mean should they deliberately screw up just cos the team is rubbish?
Likewise neither Moyes nor LVG have complained that they were not backed In the transfer marker or they lost out on a player because Woodward squabbled over a few million pounds (remember Ronaldiniho !). Both managers had full control and amazing financial support.
Glazers major cock up was not employing an independent consultant with no ties to the club to reccomend who they should appoint as next manager. I will never ever understand how SAF and SBC ever thought Moyes would be successful. As I wrote above, even Pelligrinni was available at the time and I'm sure he would have done better than Moyes.
Well the way you quoted it, it seemed a much harsher version of what you are implying now.I didn't change anything: Neither a 'squad past its prime' translates to a squad in almighty mess nor 'with a lot of luck ...' does. But if my 2nd post clarified that misunderstanding, fine.
My main point, however, was to answer the OP that SAF was neither deluded nor that SAF successors made a major cock-up - but that I believe SAF knew about the deficits of the squad he left, but that it would have been impossible to tell the public.
The first bolded sentence is something I fully and wholeheartedly agree with you. (BTW: Moyes could have also done much better, and Woodward, too.). For the second part, you may be right but I'm questioning - not in your post in particular but generally - by which objective criteria the quality of a squad is measured, and if some players of United are a bit overrated. Another point this whole scenario proves is that the overall quality of a squad is not the total of the individuals.
Your hate for Fergie and the Class of '92 is unprecedented. After reading your posts for nearly one and a half years, I still cannot tell if you are an opposition fan, someone on a WUM or just not very bright; which in itself means that you are succeeding in what you are doing. You are good.
What does "mainly due to his vast knowledge of EPL" mean? Fergie and United, in his time at the club, were very successful in Europe. Besides winning it twice, we regularly made the finals and the semi-finals of the tournament. You need to take a deeper look at the record.
He didn't find it hard to disassociate with his loyal players; besides Giggs, none of so called "loyal players" were part of the squad in his final season. And Giggs, in his limited appearances performed better than any other creative midfielder has performed for us since. We have bought 4 midfielders since his retirement; how is our midfield doing these days?
Fletcher had a debilitating stomach condition in the last few years of Fergie's regin. What did you want? For the club to cancel his contract?
We didn't end up with Zaha because we didn't want to pay for Moura. In fact, we were ready to pay more than 30m+ for an unproven 19 year old from Brazil but he decided to join PSG because of Leonardo. Is he pulling any trees at PSG? Check the Hazard thread, it's become a "let's laugh at Eden Hazard" thread. (Not that I think he is bad player).
You are just twisting facts to pour more vitriol to your already crazy agenda. I can't fathom why someone who hates English players and British managers so much claims to support an English club. But hey, everyone is free to make their choices. All the power to you, bud.
In Fergie's last couple of seasons, he was relying on getting the last dregs out of ageing greats like Rio, Vidic and even Scholes plus, in 2012-2013, adding a star striker. Much of the supporting cast was some way short of what we had got used to considering "United quality". In fact, there were obvious parallels with Liverpool's last title win in 1990. But, ultimately, it's on his successors - they were given significant financial backing and then either failed to spend wisely or were unable to mould a coherent team and pattern of play. In conclusion, whoever took the decision to hire Moyes is the chief culprit for our demise.
SAF was obsessed in having complete control over his squad. He hated working with big names as their ego made them difficult to keep them in line and they would one day or another challenge his authority. It happened in numerous occasions with Ince, JSV (he simply refused to adapt to our way), RVN, Rooney etc.
So how could he manage without having loads of these players? After all a top quality side need top quality players. SAF's trick was to make players believe that they were all special and that the world was there to get them. He would then stock his team with average players who believed this mantra and then add a couple of genuine top class quality players who could bridge the difference. That's why the likes of Gaz, Butt, Ji Sung Park and OShea had a brilliant career with this man only to fizzle out once they left Manchester United. His propaganda is still valid to this very day. In matter of fact very few of us see it awkward to group Scholes (one of the best midfielders the world had ever seen) with lets say Philip Neville (an extremely average fullback) together despite there's an immense gulf between them in terms of career, talent and relevance.
The bubble burst once SAF left. Moyes was like that boy in the emperor's new clothes ie he revealed how crap this squad actually was. Once the confidence and the magic was gone we ended up in the position this squad was probably good in (- 2 positions because Moyes was shit)
Of course we didn't need an overhaul. We needed to make additions in key areas. We have spent 300m and are worse than we were under Moyes. Blaming Fergie for this monumental cock-up is preposterous.
Not really. The main backroom staff were all booted. Not to mention the playing were creaking without enough genuine young talent.. RVP was pretty much a one season last throw of the dice.
Anyone claiming SAF doesn't have a portion of blame is deluded. Although with someone like Mourinho in charge i think we'd have been ok. He'd have gotten the right players in to start changing the squad that summer. Ultimately the thing SAF really got wrong was Moyes, and for that he is absolutely to blame.
Last edited:
Devlish goes overboard a lot of times with regards to United, but he has a point with regards to transfers and agent fees. SAF has himself admitted to turning down the chance to sign Sergio Aguero because he didn't meet our valuation of 35 million pounds, as well as David Silva. Our willingness to go with mediocrity like Zaha, Young, Bebe (7 million pound ffs) etc. was down-right strange. It is possible to get stuck into your comfort zone sometimes. Would we have refused to sign Silva and Aguero if they were British? Would we have chosen Moyes if he was Spanish? Noone can say for sure, but they're points worth raising, even if I disagree with what Devlish says most of the time.
Well, it's not. Finding that opinion so extreme is preposterous. It's fine if you don't believe any of it is on him, to each his own opinion, but it's easy to see why many think it is. Firstly, he did in fact appoint David fecking Moyes as our manager. Secondly, Gill was allowed to leave at the same time SAF did. And thirdly, the quality of our football was average when he left. Combine the three, and it isn't surprising that we crashed and burnt the way we did. And SAF played a big part in all three.
Not sure about the "big player" aversion. Why did he sign RVP then?