Gaming Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PC, PS4, Xbox One)

[Redlambs]

The reward is in learning how to play and mastering it (no idea why people insist on cheesing all the time, just ruins it), and in that the game is a masterpiece. I do agree though that some customisation, even just cosmetic, would have gone a long way. That was one of my main gripes from the start (along with, once again, the DS2 level engine and occasional cheap enemy placement). I'm glad it doesn't have the grind souls aspect to level up though, that's the opposite of what the combat is supposed to be about. If they ever so a sequel, nothing wrong with adding stuff like a staff/sai and different armours though.

Bloodborne suffers more from the lack of weapons/armour upgrades. As much as I love that game, it would be higher up my list of soulsborne if it had more weapon/combat variation as unlike Sekiro, it's a souls game at heart.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Just beat Lady Butterfly finally. She was nasty. But yet it was a fair fight and by the end I had all her moves well worked out. Not like some Elden Ring bosses that just incessantly spam you.

 

[Redlambs]

Just beat Lady Butterfly finally. She was nasty. But yet it was a fair fight and by the end I had all her moves well worked out. Not like some Elden Ring bosses that just incessantly spam you.

She's the usual hurdle to realising you can learn and beat every single boss in the game without guides and that they are among the most fair of any soulsborne game. Not saying you have to of course, but I can't remember a single boss fight that frustrated me enough to look up one.

(Though typically souls-style, there is stuff you can easily miss if you don't keep an eye on playthroughs).

 

[caid]

Yeah, the bosses were definitely excellent in this game and the combat very good... But also it is definitely just "hard", and imo wasn't rewarding enough other than personal satisfaction. But I've definitely wanted to get back into since I got my ps5. Probably after Elden ring and horizon as there's nothing special coming off the top of my head until god of war/Hogwarts legacy/botw 2.

Yeah thats all true.

The reward is in learning how to play and mastering it (no idea why people insist on cheesing all the time, just ruins it), and in that the game is a masterpiece. I do agree though that some customisation, even just cosmetic, would have gone a long way. That was one of my main gripes from the start (along with, once again, the DS2 level engine and occasional cheap enemy placement). I'm glad it doesn't have the grind souls aspect to level up though, that's the opposite of what the combat is supposed to be about. If they ever so a sequel, nothing wrong with adding stuff like a staff/sai and different armours though.

Bloodborne suffers more from the lack of weapons/armour upgrades. As much as I love that game, it would be higher up my list of soulsborne if it had more weapon/combat variation as unlike Sekiro, it's a souls game at heart.

Cheese is part of mastery. Being a horrible, cheaty bastard is part of the fun. I should probably clarify that im not talking about getting stuff stuck in walls or anything game breaking. Taking advantage of fire against beasts, using poison against women. Using a spear when reach is an issue! They put that stuff in to be abused by clever players imo.
And then lady butterfly, Owl and the last boss just force you to get good at the basics

 

[Redlambs]

Yeah thats all true.


Cheese is part of mastery. Being a horrible, cheaty bastard is part of the fun. I should probably clarify that im not talking about getting stuff stuck in walls or anything game breaking. Taking advantage of fire against beasts, using poison against women. Using a spear when reach is an issue! They put that stuff in to be abused by clever players imo.

Cheesing is a part of mastery and clever

Half the things you've just said there aren't even cheesing anyway, like using the spear.


But anyway, it is why they put Prosthetics in there, it's the souls equivalent of magic (easy mode). Which is fine and fair, as you want to give people the option and it helps with the frustration as everyone gets stuck now and then.

 

[Sweet Square]

Cheesing is a part of mastery and clever

I could be wrong but the character you play is a Shinobi who traditionally(Again I could be talking rubbish here)were assassins and mercenaries from the lower classes. Unlike the samurai who came from the higher classes and believed in shite like honour and respect. By any means necessary style of play fits into the character of the game, also it's a ton of fun chessing certain bosses. You can pretty stun lock Lady Butterfly, which as great to find out.

 

[caid]

Cheesing is a part of mastery and clever

Half the things you've just said there aren't even cheesing anyway, like using the spear.


But anyway, it is why they put Prosthetics in there, it's the souls equivalent of magic (easy mode). Which is fine and fair, as you want to give people the option and it helps with the frustration as everyone gets stuck now and then.

I dont really buy that. I think some bosses are intended to be fought with items and prostethics, i think sneak attacks are intended against some enemies. I think your role is as an honorless assassin and acting like theres some purity to just using your sword and fighting fair is a weird approach to the game. It'll force you to do that at times and you wont beat it without being competent at that side of the game but its not the intended way for the game to be played.
Trying to beat the Guardian Ape without prostethics just feels weird and annoying. Every attack will fall short, if you get close then he forces you back with his scream. Most of his attacks are unblockable and undeflectable. Your trading hits and whittling him down in the some tiny windows between dozens of attacks. Or you get out a firecracker and force a window to do damage and kill him in the 5 mins most bosses take rather than the 20 fighting fair would take. Same with the snake eyes bosses, you cant back off, she'll counter if you just hack away and does a lot of stance damage if you try deflecting. Use poison and it goes from being one of the hardest fights in the game thrown randomly in a dungeon in the middle of nowhere, to just a good fight.

 

[Redlambs]

I could be wrong but the character you play is a Shinobi who traditionally(Again I could be talking rubbish here)were assassins and mercenaries from the lower classes. Unlike the samurai who came from the higher classes and believed in shite like honour and respect. By any means necessary style of play fits into the character of the game, also it's a ton of fun chessing certain bosses. You can pretty stun lock Lady Butterfly, which as great to find out.

I dont really buy that. I think some bosses are intended to be fought with items and prostethics, i think sneak attacks are intended against some enemies. I think your role is as an honorless assassin and acting like theres some purity to just using your sword and fighting fair is a weird approach to the game. It'll force you to do that at times and you wont beat it without being competent at that side of the game but its not the intended way for the game to be played.
Trying to beat the Guardian Ape without prostethics just feels weird and annoying. Every attack will fall short, if you get close then he forces you back with his scream. Most of his attacks are unblockable and undeflectable. Your trading hits and whittling him down in the some tiny windows between dozens of attacks. Or you get out a firecracker and force a window to do damage and kill him in the 5 mins most bosses take rather than the 20 fighting fair would take. Same with the snake eyes bosses, you cant back off, she'll counter if you just hack away and does a lot of stance damage if you try deflecting. Use poison and it goes from being one of the hardest fights in the game thrown randomly in a dungeon in the middle of nowhere, to just a good fight.

"traditional Shinobis" also don't come back to life

Anyway, I think we are talking crossed purposes and I'm having a little fun. There's nothing wrong with using prosthetics, as you say caid, they are in the game for a reason. That reason is to make the game less frustrating, it's the easy mode (and there's no shame in that, as it's still not exactly easy!) equivalent to souls magic. They are designed with a specific purpose and that most certainly is fair game.

"cheesing" in games doesn't actually mean what you think it does in the traditional sense. The meaning has evolved with modern times of course, like all other words the kids hijack, but originally it meant finding exploits around the game design. My earliest memory if it, for example, it kick/block/throw in Streetfighter 2 tournaments, exploiting an animation pause that was never intended (though briefly implemented in later versions as everyone did it). Cheesing is actually what you said earlier in your post caid, breaking the game in both terms of bugs and design and/or finding ways the developers didn't really intend on you to use.

What I genuinely don't agree with is calling it clever. It's fairly clever if you figured that stuff out for yourself (and I'm not saying YOU didn't, I'm talking generally), and would be more so if it was deeper than the implementation of the prosthetics in Sekiro (for example, the use of the spear you refer to is actually made obvious in game), but drastically less so if you follow guides to tell you or indeed blurt it out in here so now Spanner knows what status effects hurt what enemies

 

[Redlambs]

BTW the Guardian Ape is a great fight without the prosthetics!

That's actual mastery, and it's fun to do.

 

[caid]

"traditional Shinobis" also don't come back to life

Anyway, I think we are talking crossed purposes and I'm having a little fun. There's nothing wrong with using prosthetics, as you say caid, they are in the game for a reason. That reason is to make the game less frustrating, it's the easy mode (and there's no shame in that, as it's still not exactly easy!) equivalent to souls magic. They are designed with a specific purpose and that most certainly is fair game.

"cheesing" in games doesn't actually mean what you think it does in the traditional sense. The meaning has evolved with modern times of course, like all other words the kids hijack, but originally it meant finding exploits around the game design. My earliest memory if it, for example, it kick/block/throw in Streetfighter 2 tournaments, exploiting an animation pause that was never intended (though briefly implemented in later versions as everyone did it). Cheesing is actually what you said earlier in your post caid, breaking the game in both terms of bugs and design and/or finding ways the developers didn't really intend on you to use.

What I genuinely don't agree with is calling it clever. It's fairly clever if you figured that stuff out for yourself (and I'm not saying YOU didn't, I'm talking generally), and would be more so if it was deeper than the implementation of the prosthetics in Sekiro (for example, the use of the spear you refer to is actually made obvious in game), but drastically less so if you follow guides to tell you or indeed blurt it out in here so now Spanner knows what status effects hurt what enemies

This is true
The game does tell you about them if you read the random notes and stuff. Or just experiment. Thats my excuse.
I dont really agree again on the magic comparison. You cant make a firecracker build. You'll get about 2 uses for most of the game each life. And stuff like the umbrellas dont feel like the easy mode version of the game, they feel like the showing off version of the game. They're all useful in very specific cases but by and large they do similar damage to a regular attack with a much longer wind up, or nothing at all (most enemies dont care much about firecrackers). The combat arts look potentially a bit more abusable but i didn't use them that much tbh.
My interpretation of cheese would be using the same attack over and over and over again in Street Fighter, spamming psycho crushers back and forth the screen for instance. Its not really cheese, cheap would probably be a better description. I feel the game strongly, strongly urges you to be cheap and horrible and its pretty satisfying to do that.

 

[Redlambs]

This is true
The game does tell you about them if you read the random notes and stuff. Or just experiment. Thats my excuse.
I dont really agree again on the magic comparison. You cant make a firecracker build. You'll get about 2 uses for most of the game each life. And stuff like the umbrellas dont feel like the easy mode version of the game, they feel like the showing off version of the game. They're all useful in very specific cases but by and large they do similar damage to a regular attack with a much longer wind up, or nothing at all (most enemies dont care much about firecrackers). The combat arts look potentially a bit more abusable but i didn't use them that much tbh.
My interpretation of cheese would be using the same attack over and over and over again in Street Fighter, spamming psycho crushers back and forth the screen for instance. Its not really cheese, cheap would probably be a better description. I feel the game strongly, strongly urges you to be cheap and horrible and its pretty satisfying to do that.

Then that's not in line with your definition of "cheesing". Maybe it's my use of the phrase "easy mode" that you are more against, because the developers themselves have stated in interviews that the prosthetics are in there to make the game more accessible. If you can be bothered to find them, there were the same comments made about the original Demon's souls inclusion of magic.

That's the way you like to play, that absolutely fine. It's not as if it makes the game easy in comparison to anything else! For example, I remember using shuriken against Lady Butterfly (not it the "cheese" way you may have seen in YT videos though) and that was still a tough fight. I'm not downplaying that aspect, it's another layer of genius FROM can and often do bring to design. I'm just stating that they aren't cheese themselves, certain methods of using them certainly fall under that category for sure, but they also don't have to be used at all in any boss fight and that's mastery.

I don't even think we disagree on the whole, you might just see my use of "easy mode" as me saying it's a cop-out or something. That's not the case at all, I'm tempted to play again right now and mess around with them


I mean they aren't magic in Elden Ring for example, which is toddler mode

 

[caid]

Then that's not in line with your definition of "cheesing". Maybe it's my use of the phrase "easy mode" that you are more against, because the developers themselves have stated in interviews that the prosthetics are in there to make the game more accessible. If you can be bothered to find them, there were the same comments made about the original Demon's souls inclusion of magic.

That's the way you like to play, that absolutely fine. It's not as if it makes the game easy in comparison to anything else! For example, I remember using shuriken against Lady Butterfly (not it the "cheese" way you may have seen in YT videos though) and that was still a tough fight. I'm not downplaying that aspect, it's another layer of genius FROM can and often do bring to design. I'm just stating that they aren't cheese themselves, certain methods of using them certainly fall under that category for sure, but they also don't have to be used at all in any boss fight and that's mastery.

I don't even think we disagree on the whole, you might just see my use of "easy mode" as me saying it's a cop-out or something. That's not the case at all, I'm tempted to play again right now and mess around with them


I mean they aren't magic in Elden Ring for example, which is toddler mode

I think i do a bit but mostly just arguing for the sake of it really.

 

[Redlambs]

I think i do a bit but mostly just arguing for the sake of it really.

 

[Moby]

This game is tough eh?

 

[Massive Spanner]

It is so tough!

I dunno why people complain about Malenia so much. The guy at the top of Ashina Castle is harder! Great fight though, all about learning the patterns etc. I guess he’s a lot less chesty than Malenia at least. Got him to the 3rd phase yesterday.

 

[Moby]

It is so tough!

I dunno why people complain about Malenia so much. The guy at the top of Ashina Castle is harder! Great fight though, all about learning the patterns etc. I guess he’s a lot less chesty than Malenia at least. Got him to the 3rd phase yesterday.

Genichiro? That's who I stopped playing at. I went straight to him and didn't touch that other side area the estate one so probably need to do that first but yeah that guy has a lot of moves.

But I found the optional mini boss before that tougher. That dude was so fast. The parry window was really small.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Genichiro? That's who I stopped playing at. I went straight to him and didn't touch that other side area the estate one so probably need to do that first but yeah that guy has a lot of moves.

But I found the optional mini boss before that tougher. That dude was so fast. The parry window was really small.

I found him easy enough after a few goes. Just figure out the parry and don’t bother attacking and his posture bar builds up really quickly.

dude at the top is so rough though, so many different moves throughout each phase.

 

[KirkDuyt]

This is by far the Fromsoft game with the fairest difficulty in my opinion. The last boss for isntance seems utterly imposisble at first, but now I can consistently beat his arse.

Only game that's close in this aspect is the recent SIFU which is so criminally fecking underrated.

 

[Redlambs]

This is by far the Fromsoft game with the fairest difficulty in my opinion. The last boss for isntance seems utterly imposisble at first, but now I can consistently beat his arse.

Only game that's close in this aspect is the recent SIFU which is so criminally fecking underrated.

The braindead reviewers put people off that game.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I fecking finally beat Genichiro. What a fight! Probably the most I've ever fought a boss in a game, so satisfying when I finally got him. That's the sort of energy I got from Bloodborne bosses that I didn't really from Elden Ring.

By the end I'd gotten so good at the first phase that I was absolutely smashing through him without taking hits at all and ruining his posture

 

[KirkDuyt]

I fecking finally beat Genichiro. What a fight! Probably the most I've ever fought a boss in a game, so satisfying when I finally got him. That's the sort of energy I got from Bloodborne bosses that I didn't really from Elden Ring.

By the end I'd gotten so good at the first phase that I was absolutely smashing through him without taking hits at all and ruining his posture

Dont worry, there will be many more moments like this ahead

 

[Moby]

I found him easy enough after a few goes. Just figure out the parry and don’t bother attacking and his posture bar builds up really quickly.

dude at the top is so rough though, so many different moves throughout each phase.

Yeah I got him after a few tried. Didn't know he was optional but anyway was one dimensional as you said.

Genichiro is a pretty good fight overall. I think his first two phases are tougher than third due to variety of attacks and that you can repel lightning etc.

 

[Redlambs]

I don't think I ever actually repelled the lightning. You do that whilst jumping in the air right? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[Moby]

I don't think I ever actually repelled the lightning. You do that whilst jumping in the air right? Or am I thinking of something else?

Yeah you have to time the jump.

 

[Redlambs]

Yeah you have to time the jump.

I'm useless at remembering to use stuff like that and items in these games. I think the only thing I ever remembered was the thing that lets you hit the headless dudes.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yeah I never repelled the lightning. Was easier to stay close and go under him for a few swipes when he did it.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I don't think I ever actually repelled the lightning. You do that whilst jumping in the air right? Or am I thinking of something else?

Yes, I never did it either, but then with the last boss it's their again and I did bother trying it and it's extremely strong

 

[caid]

I used it. I like the gimmicks. Its does a lot of damage and stuns them for a long time, its worth it.

I don't think I ever actually repelled the lightning. You do that whilst jumping in the air right? Or am I thinking of something else?

If you beat the game you've done it. Boss later in the game cant be beat without it.

 

[Redlambs]

I used it. I like the gimmicks. Its does a lot of damage and stuns them for a long time, its worth it.


If you beat the game you've done it. Boss later in the game cant be beat without it.

Refresh my memory, which boss do you HAVE to use it against?

 

[caid]

Refresh my memory, which boss do you HAVE to use it against?

Dragon

 

[Redlambs]

Dragon

Oooooh yeah, grappling into the air.

Man, I need to play this again. I reckon I've forgotten enough by now that it will be fun again.

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't know what it is about this game but i just struggle so hard started a new save on it after I beat Elden Ring. That fecking purple cloaked knight guarding the mist raven feather is kicking my ass. Trying to do as much of the early game as possible without using the prosthetics so i can master the basics, but feck am I just off with everything so far.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I don't know what it is about this game but i just struggle so hard started a new save on it after I beat Elden Ring. That fecking purple cloaked knight guarding the mist raven feather is kicking my ass. Trying to do as much of the early game as possible without using the prosthetics so i can master the basics, but feck am I just off with everything so far.

I hear you. I would say the fight at the top of the tower with Genichiro was a massive skill check for me. Spent longer on him than any FS game so far and by the end I was parrying and countering everything and since then I have been doing much, much better. Before him even mini bosses felt incredibly hard but now I usually get past mini bosses relatively easily.

It definitely feels like he’s the big barrier that makes you “git gud” if you want to keep going.

 

[b82REZ]

I bought this to tide me over before Elden Ring, I really want to get back to it.

It's the rhythm game I've wanted since Guitar Hero 3.

 

[esmufc07]

I hear you. I would say the fight at the top of the tower with Genichiro was a massive skill check for me. Spent longer on him than any FS game so far and by the end I was parrying and countering everything and since then I have been doing much, much better. Before him even mini bosses felt incredibly hard but now I usually get past mini bosses relatively easily.

It definitely feels like he’s the big barrier that makes you “git gud” if you want to keep going.

Where are you upto now?

I'm surprised to hear so many struggled with Lady Butterfly? I beat her first time. From what I remember it was about staying pretty close and shifting t her back and attacking her.

Still one of my all time favourite games. Going to have to load it up again soon.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Where are you upto now?

I'm surprised to hear so many struggled with Lady Butterfly? I beat her first time. From what I remember it was about staying pretty close and shifting t her back and attacking her.

Still one of my all time favourite games. Going to have to load it up again soon.

I definitely didn't beat her first time but she wasn't too bad once I figured out you could knock her down with the Shuriken.

I just beat the corrupted monk down in the depths and got the ability to go under water so I guess I've some back tracking to do.

Also have to fight a headless that I skipped past before, hate those cnuts.

 

[bosnian_red]

I hear you. I would say the fight at the top of the tower with Genichiro was a massive skill check for me. Spent longer on him than any FS game so far and by the end I was parrying and countering everything and since then I have been doing much, much better. Before him even mini bosses felt incredibly hard but now I usually get past mini bosses relatively easily.

It definitely feels like he’s the big barrier that makes you “git gud” if you want to keep going.

Last time i remember getting past him not too bad, but getting stuck at the Owl. Now I'm literally at just that random purple cloak knight enemy guarding the mist raven prosthetic. Trying to get good and not cheese him. Struggling more with him (a random enemy) than any boss on Elden ring ffs

 

[Massive Spanner]

Last time i remember getting past him not too bad, but getting stuck at the Owl. Now I'm literally at just that random purple cloak knight enemy guarding the mist raven prosthetic. Trying to get good and not cheese him. Struggling more with him (a random enemy) than any boss on Elden ring ffs

Oh those lads are all absolute bastards yeah.

 

[bosnian_red]

Oh those lads are all absolute bastards yeah.

I think I'm just not used to standing and blocking/deflecting so much and have gotten so used to rolling and dodging. Very different game and I feel like being sharp with dark souls/Elden ring is making this harder

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm at the second owl fight now and it is brutal.