Exactly how I see it too. He is Yaya with knobs on.
Search for the Chosen CM to bring balance to The Force...errr Formation
- Thread starter Devil may care
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Exactly how I see it too. He is Yaya with knobs on.
One established central midfielder and one with potential would be my choice. I don't think Koke or Saul Niguez will change clubs anytime soon, otherwise Koke would be my first choice. I'd prefer Schneiderlin, since he seems to fit into van Gaal's idea of football and in general has been very consistent for Southampton over the years. He's physically strong, a good passer and can play as a holding midfielder and a box-to-box midfielder. Johannes Geis is the talented midfielder I hope we sign.
Koke?Agree completely. With another he'd be ideal.
Yeah... he's too small for the sort of player I would want when you compare him to players in his position in the premier league. Matic - 6ft 4. Schneiderlin 6ft. Henderson 6ft. Toure 6ft 2. He seems a forward looking player than someone that's going to get stuck in at the back when needed. We have Herrera, Mata, Di Maria for his position. We need someone that can perform both roles... a creator and a destroyer that has enough of a physical presence that he won't get bullied.
He's only 2 inches shorter than Schneiderlin and very strong on the ball and does way more defensive work than Yaya. I honestly can't believe you have watched a lot of Atletico given these posts, especially considering you are bracketing him with Mata and Di Maria who are nothing like him..
Just because he's not 6ft doesn't mean he's small. Koke has decent height (5 ft 10), and he's strong and can more than hold his own. He works very hard and doesn't mind putting in tough challenges. You have to under Simeone.
He wouldn't be the name on everyone's lips, but I wouldn't mind seeing James McCarthy. Very hard working player, with good overall attributes.
LVG sees Herrera as a goalkeeper probably.
I personally don't think we need two cm's. Van Gaal said he doesn't see Herrera as a number 8, but he'll still play as the most advanced midfielder in a three. Fellaini won't start, but I can imagine that he'll be back up to the number 8 we get next season. Next season I can imagine Van Gaal will have a midfield like:
Carrick/Blind
Box 2 Box/Fellaini - Herrera/Mata
Box 2 Box/Fellaini - Herrera/Mata
That's two midfielders for each position. We should be looking to replace Carrick the season after next, in my opinion. Hasn't got the legs (never really has) but his calmness, composure and reading of the game makes up for it.
I think we are more likely to go with a flexible 4-2-3-1 with Wilson and Fellaini as the back up striker options.
The balance 1&2/Carrick/Blind
Di Maria/Januzaj - Rooney/Herrera - Memphis/Young
New striker
Di Maria/Januzaj - Rooney/Herrera - Memphis/Young
New striker
Why the feck is everybody putting Di Maria as wing or as anything different than in the left of a midfield 3 or diamond. The only position at which he has been good for us? (and for RM)
Finally LvG has played him in 2 of the last 3 games there and the difference is abysmal.
what is wrong with the caf?
Finally LvG has played him in 2 of the last 3 games there and the difference is abysmal.
what is wrong with the caf?
Hopefully this is nailed on:
---------Blind----------
----?---------Di Maria-
Winger----------Winger
----------Rooney-------
It's just a case of getting our defence up to a level where we can play such an attacking formation, and wide players good enough to offer a threat. This is based on absolutely nothing of substance and is more through hope than anything else, but jesus wouldn't that be something?
---------Blind----------
----?---------Di Maria-
Winger----------Winger
----------Rooney-------
It's just a case of getting our defence up to a level where we can play such an attacking formation, and wide players good enough to offer a threat. This is based on absolutely nothing of substance and is more through hope than anything else, but jesus wouldn't that be something?
Vidal, Pogba, Verratti, Koke, Schneiderlin... seems like we have talked about these guys for 2-3 years now.
Strootman seems the obvious choice to don the legendary ? jersey.
It would be something indeed. The other striking thing about it is we have a completely inadequate squad to deploy it.
Why the feck is everybody putting Di Maria as wing or as anything different than in the left of a midfield 3 or diamond. The only position at which he has been good for us? (and for RM)
Finally LvG has played him in 2 of the last 3 games there and the difference is abysmal.
what is wrong with the caf?
He was better when switched to the right wing forward role with freedom to drift in, in the last 2 games. He gives the ball away and is too slight for LvG to trust him in midfield very often, this league is too physical.
Carvalho or a physical beast like him to play CDM.
Pogba or Schniederlin for the box to box role.
We already have a world class LCM in Di Maria, who is one of the best if not the best at linking the attack and defence.
We would also have a versatile midfielder in Blind who can cover many roles and Carrick who can still do a good job.
I think Herrera and Mata will be gone in the summer.
Pogba or Schniederlin for the box to box role.
We already have a world class LCM in Di Maria, who is one of the best if not the best at linking the attack and defence.
We would also have a versatile midfielder in Blind who can cover many roles and Carrick who can still do a good job.
I think Herrera and Mata will be gone in the summer.
But he is not unlike Herrera who is taller than he is and is also un-afraid of putting a challenge in. But he is almost certainly considered too weak to go up against most premiership midfields. I think we're looking for a bigger lad.
And yet Ander Herrera who is 2 inches taller than Koke is considered too weak for the position. I honestly think we'll be looking for a physical presence.
I again have to wonder how much you have seen of Koke, he has a squat type of built with a low center of gravity that makes him very hard to knock off the ball, and he is a lot more careful with his passing than Ander is. I think LvG is looking for someone that can control a game in midfield, not a just a big guy that can muscle people, and look at Mordic, one of the best, combative box to box CM's in the world, he's not a huge guy by any means.
I'd say it's a lot more likely that Van Gaal is benching Herrera (wrongly IMO) because he gives the ball away too frequently and doesn't really control the tempo of the match enough for the manager's liking. Bottom line is, Koke definitely has the physical side to succeed in PL.
How do we know until he plays in the premier league? Almost certainly it'll take a season to get to grips with it(if he does at all)... which we can ill afford. I'd rather see us get a player that is going to hit the ground running which is why I prefer Schneiderlin.
Looks soo good on the ball, but that gut... would need a ridiculous pre-season fitness plan like Shaw had to cut that down. He'd struggle in the Prem if not. I'd take the gamble though, if I'm honest. If we go for Hummels, in for a penny and all that. Add him on while we're at it.
Personally I wouldnt have said that Modric is particularly combative. Incredibly good at controlling tempo.. yes. Covers the ground well... yes. Can get pushed off the ball... yes. It took him a long time to get up to the speed of the premiership. A couple of seasons at least. I don't think we can afford to wait for a player to become acclimitised, if they can in fact achieve it. Look at the struggles Veron had for example. We need a mobile Carrick with bigger balls. Bloody hard to find mind. Makes it all the more galling that Moyes turned down Matic and Strootman when Fergie had them as they seem to be the sort of players we should be after.
Gundogan if we are convinced can return to his previous form is a no brainer. However, I'd be seriously worried about his back.
The Gundogan that got Dortmund to the CL Final was a brilliant player.
The Gundogan that got Dortmund to the CL Final was a brilliant player.
Like I said, I very much doubt we'll get two number 8's next season, as I personally think we should be looking to prioritise in other positions, such as a centre back and a winger.
I don't think there is anything stopping us addressing all the positions we need to in truth and given that Carrick is going to 34 and becoming injury prone it's not impossible we'd buy 2 all round CM's, but if not then Rooney would drop in as the #8 and Herrera or Januzaj would play the #10 in 4-2-3-1.
If the price is right he might still be worth a go as the back injury should be cleared, it's just the concern that he could be like Fletch and his engine is gone.
Matic next to Blind wouldn't bring balance though, we'd have gone too far the other way. The way LvG talked it sounded like his priority was based more on the style of the players game than how tall they are.
I don't think it's impossible, but I don't think it's a priority. Don't forget, Van Gaal likes a small squad, and he'll want a team where he won't have to leave out any first team players in the squad on matchdays. I mean, if we were to get two centre mids, one centre back, a winger and a striker, what would your team and bench be, without leaving out any of the first team players, who are on massive wages?
Also, you say we need a striker when we've got one currently at the club in Rooney, who, given constant games up there, will score goals, as he's been doing consistently for 10 seasons, so I guess we can cross the striker vacancy off the list (this is just what I would do, by the way). Say if Rooney was to play up top next season and was banging the goals in, I would find it very strange for Van Gaal to drop him in the number 8 position, if the one we buy was to get injured, when we've got more than enough natural options to cover him, in my opinion. Having Rooney up top, would also means that we can keep Mata, meaning he and Herrera can compete for the number 10 position.
I also think that, despite Van Gaal saying Herrera is a 10, we could still drop him into the number 8 position if we were up against a team where we'd expect to boss the game, like we saw against Burnley and Preston. If it's a bigger game, then two of Blind, Carrick or Fellaini can play the 6 and 8. I know you said you feel the latter will be a forward, but like I said before, Fellaini has played the deeper role for us before, and when it comes to breaking up play and physicality, I'd much prefer him over Rooney.
If we were to play a 4231, we could options of:
Games where we'd boss it if new number 8 is injured:
Herrera - Blind
Herrera - Carrick
Games we'd like to be solid in if new number 8 is injured:
Carrick - Blind
Fellaini - Blind
Fellaini - Carrick
If we sign Pogba, we'll still need to sign someone like Morgan, Strootman or a player in that mould. Pogba would be an upgrade on what we currently have, he does most of his work further up the pitch.
I just love how all our top CM targets suffered from serious injuries: Gundogan, Strootman, Vidal...
Tielemans and Schniederlin. I would say Strootman but I don't see him moving after missing almost year and a half.
Tielemans and Schniederlin. I would say Strootman but I don't see him moving after missing almost year and a half.
Surely taking a season to get to grips with England is an outdated view? The majority of good foreign players take the league by storm when they first move.
I'd argue the risk of Koke failing to adapt to England is considerably lower than the risk of Schneiderlin failing to make the step up to a bigger club.
Majority of players who take the league by storm physical type of imports (Tevez/Sanchez/Costa/Yaya) & players who can bounce off challenges (David Silva) wouldn't say Koke would be nailed on to be a success story in England at all.
Don't think there would any risk of Schneiderlin making the step up though, the guy is quality and a proven PL player and would improve us so much.
Don't think there would any risk of Schneiderlin making the step up though, the guy is quality and a proven PL player and would improve us so much.
Well I think I posted the starting line-up I'd use somewhere, which would make the bench: Valdes, Smalling, Rojo, New Cm, Herrera, Carrick, Wilson/Januzaj.
I don't see Rooney being played as a pure #9, it wastes way too much of his game, he'll play in behind the #9 IMO and in all honesty I have no interest in us keeping Mata, I'd prfer Herrera as the other AM/#10 option if Rooney was injured or had to drop into midfield. To me it's getting more and more necessary to have workrate right through your team in the PL.
We just have a difference of opinion regarding Fellaini, and with Herrera I think it's been a needs must deal this season although if LvG started to truly trust him I'd not be adverse to him being used there. Of course I am also looking at it from the perspective that the new #8 could be missing for a long stretch and then we'd be back to where we are IMO. I am also concerned about Carrick, 34 next season and he's been plagued with injuries this season, it's difficult to shake those off and rebound as you get older. I think the solid combinations you listed would make us very slow and lacking in passing range, even the ultra pragmatic Mourinho rarely uses a midfield that negative.
I wouldn't mind taking the punt on Roberto Firmino. He'd be a cheaper option than many listed in here and has just as much potential. I'd also be looking at Johannes Geis at Mainz as backup/competition for Blind in the DM role, get him before Bayern do.
Firmino is a forward though not a CM, he usually plays as either a #10 or as a wide forward. Geis is a decent shout as competition for Blind in the #6 role.
Firmino's best position is further back in midfield, he's also a player who has a surprisingly good defensive contribution. I could certainly see him partnering Di Maria with a DM behind. Also gives us a bit more flexibility with shifting Di Maria to a wide position and still retaining a very good dribbler in midfield. Alternatively shifting Firmino out wide and retaining Di Maria in the middle. Gives us more tactical flexibility which is always a good thing.
Problem is that I can see a number of clubs going for him this Summer.
Not the Firmino I've seen at Hoffenheim, he plays mostly in the final 3rd and his best traits are that of a #10, he played as a forward recently for Brazil as well. He'll work hard but I don't think LvG would view him as a CM for this league, he doesn't even view Herrera as one. I expect someone more sturdy who has CM as their main position.
Firmino is a bit useless upfront. His best position is a deep lying AM imo.
You are correct though, LVG would prefer a midfielder who probably is less likely to move forwards so if thats the case then we should be going for Schneiderlin. Which I seem to recall was a player I brought up last season as a possible addition (before the Caf went crazy for him).
Schneiderlin certainly fits the bill as he can play as a #8 or #6 which I imagine would suit LvG, I just get the feeling he is going to end up at Arsenal or Spurs.