Sean Goss

Nicklas said:
Don't you think players like Tuanzebe, Riley, Willock or Gribbin can have a fair chance of a career with us?
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Unfortunately I do not see any youth coming through or even getting a proper chance under José. He's not going to change his spots all of a sudden is he which is a shame given that United are big on given youth a chance. Jose's handling of youth is nothing to write home about. Rashford has been misused imo, we don't know what is going on with Shaw, Martial is getting dropped at every opportunity, who the hell is TFM? Goss is the closest thing to Carrick who has been instrumental to our run is getting sold without getting a single chance. You'd think that when Carrick is unfit it would make sense to replace him with a very similar player, having isolated Bastian and sold Schneiderlin.

A big shame really.
 
I like the new strategy of placing buy back clauses.. I think we'd have brought in someone like Shawcross or Drinkwater sometime during the last few years had we had a buy back clause in their deals.
 
Sid234 said:
I like the new strategy of placing buy back clauses.. I think we'd have brought in someone like Shawcross or Drinkwater sometime during the last few years had we had a buy back clause in their deals.
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There are three parties which need to agree to a buy-back clause.

Some buying clubs don't like them and and player don't want them.

Therefore when a player is nearing the end of their contract and United are trying to capitalise on a fee, their hand isn't that strong to demand one.

It's much harder and less common than people think.
 
Sid234 said:
I like the new strategy of placing buy back clauses.. I think we'd have brought in someone like Shawcross or Drinkwater sometime during the last few years had we had a buy back clause in their deals.
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I'm glad we didn't. Neither is good enough.
 
TwoSheds said:
I'm glad we didn't. Neither is good enough.
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There were points in the last 3-4 years that we'd have loved to have either of them in the team. They are good players, and playing with better teammates always makes a difference. I still wouldnt mind having Drinkwater as an option in our midfield. There's no point being elitist about this, there are many ways to be a top team than to just spend top quid on every big name player in the market. Squad players are just as pivotal to a team's success as their best.

The whole "not United quality" stuff is just over simplified. I think a player is capable of stepping up and playing at a higher level with better teammates and when played in a position that suits their strengths. There's a reason Fellaini is still in the squad while Schneiderlin has been sold and Bastain has just played one game. Mourinho plays him to his strengths and doesnt expect him to be a Makelele or Zidane in midfield, he has a certain skill set that Mourinho wants and Mou uses him in role that minimizes his exposure to his weaknesses.

Plus, the point of the clause is that if the player does step up and become a better player then we have the option to bring them at a decent price.

Mr. MUJAC said:
There are three parties which need to agree to a buy-back clause.

Some buying clubs don't like them and and player don't want them.

Therefore when a player is nearing the end of their contract and United are trying to capitalise on a fee, their hand isn't that strong to demand one.

It's much harder and less common than people think.
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That's true but we've let a lot of youngsters sold at a low price and without a buy back clause in their contract. I think memphis is the first transfer i remember with us having an option to buy back.

Teams usually pay a lower price up front when they add in a buy back clause but it's not like we've been selling our youngsters for a big price either and i dont any United academy player would be averse to coming back to the team where they started their careers.
 
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Sid234 said:
There were points in the last 3-4 years that we'd have loved to have either of them in the team. They are good players, and playing with better teammates always makes a difference. I still wouldnt mind having Drinkwater as an option in our midfield. There's no point being elitist about this, there are many ways to be a top team than to just spend top quid on every big name player in the market. Squad players are just as pivotal to a team's success as their best.

The whole "not United quality" stuff is just over simplified. I think a player is capable of stepping up and playing at a higher level with better teammates and when played in a position that suits their strengths. There's a reason Fellaini is still in the squad while Schneiderlin has been sold and Bastain has just played one game. Mourinho plays him to his strengths and doesnt expect him to be a Makelele or Zidane in midfield, he has a certain skill set that Mourinho wants and Mou uses him in role that minimizes his exposure to his weaknesses.

Plus, the point of the clause is that if the player does step up and become a better player then we have the option to bring them at a decent price.



That's true but we've let a lot of youngsters sold at a low price and without a buy back clause in their contract. I think memphis is the first transfer i remember with us having an option to buy back.

Teams usually pay a lower price up front when they add in a buy back clause but it's not like we've been selling our youngsters for a big price either and i dont any United academy player would be averse to coming back to the team where they started their careers.
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The reason we let them go is because we didn't think they were good enough and we were right. Shawcross wouldn't want to be here as 5th choice and rightly so when he can captain Stoke. Same with Drinkwater playing as first choice in the Champions' midfield.

And much as I'm no fan of Fellaini, he's a better player than Drinkwater. What we need to do is get a proper DM in to replace Carrick, not yet another stopgap who isn't cut out for United like Schneiderlin. Squad players should either be good enough to push the first choice players or youngsters with potential to become first choice, no point spunking cash on average experienced players just because they used to play for us.

Reason we've put a buyback in for Goss is probably because we actually think he's decent.
 
TwoSheds said:
The reason we let them go is because we didn't think they were good enough and we were right. Shawcross wouldn't want to be here as 5th choice and rightly so when he can captain Stoke. Same with Drinkwater playing as first choice in the Champions' midfield.

And much as I'm no fan of Fellaini, he's a better player than Drinkwater. What we need to do is get a proper DM in to replace Carrick, not yet another stopgap who isn't cut out for United like Schneiderlin. Squad players should either be good enough to push the first choice players or youngsters with potential to become first choice, no point spunking cash on average experienced players just because they used to play for us.

Reason we've put a buyback in for Goss is probably because we actually think he's decent.
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We've never really stood in the way of any youngster that wants 1st team football unless we could guarantee them games. That is the reason we let Shawcross, Drinkwater, Pearson, Tunnicliffe, James, Daehli, Eikrem, Pique, Rossi, Zeiler, Simpson, etc go.

They might not have turned out world class but that doesn't mean we never rated them and that's why we let them go. Plus, I don't think we've been in the habit of putting buy back clauses in deals for any players we sell before Memphis.
 
Sid234 said:
We've never really stood in the way of any youngster that wants 1st team football unless we could guarantee them games. That is the reason we let Shawcross, Drinkwater, Pearson, Tunnicliffe, James, Daehli, Eikrem, Pique, Rossi, Zeiler, Simpson, etc go.

They might not have turned out world class but that doesn't mean we never rated them and that's why we let them go. Plus, I don't think we've been in the habit of putting buy back clauses in deals for any players we sell before Memphis.
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I also think this is good long-term policy in terms of maintaining the good reputation of our academy. Players know (we’ve raised double the amount of current PL players than the next best club) they get a good education and that if there’s no path to United’s first team, we do what we can to find them a suitable club, don’t ask even decent transfer fees and generally, as you said, never stand in the way.
 
top1whoisman said:
I also think this is good long-term policy in terms of maintaining the good reputation of our academy. Players know (we’ve raised double the amount of current PL players than the next best club) they get a good education and that if there’s no path to United’s first team, we do what we can to find them a suitable club, don’t ask even decent transfer fees and generally, as you said, never stand in the way.
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Yeah, like you said that's the main we let younger players go.. not because we write them off, but it's because they have an offer for 1st team football elsewhere and we don't want to stand in their way.
 
dichinero said:
Unfortunately I do not see any youth coming through or even getting a proper chance under José. He's not going to change his spots all of a sudden is he which is a shame given that United are big on given youth a chance. Jose's handling of youth is nothing to write home about. Rashford has been misused imo, we don't know what is going on with Shaw, Martial is getting dropped at every opportunity, who the hell is TFM? Goss is the closest thing to Carrick who has been instrumental to our run is getting sold without getting a single chance. You'd think that when Carrick is unfit it would make sense to replace him with a very similar player, having isolated Bastian and sold Schneiderlin.

A big shame really.
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Rashford has had a huge impact on games recently, so how you can suggest he's being "misused" is bizarre. Seems to me like you're trying to explain away something that doesn't fit in with your opinion that Mourinho has something against young players. Martial has had chances but has been inconsistent and in my opinion, the team comes first.

This lad is 21. I haven't seen him play so perhaps this is a mistake, but the difference from u23 level to first team is huge. As an aside, the other night on Talksport they had managers on talking about how it's not representative of the PL because it's not physical or intense enough to compare. The reality is that a lot of players who excel at that level may never be good enough for the PL, never mind at a top club like United who want to be challenging for titles and in Europe against the very best.

There are loads of players United have moved on from the academy playing up and down the leagues and have been better for it. If a player isn't likely to be first team materiel (and by the age of 21 that's likely to be evident) then its better for them to be allowed to move on and build a career elsewhere.

If Mourinho felt he wasn't good enough to get a chance then as the manager he should be backed to make those decisions. The managers job isn't to build a team of young local lads but to build a squad capable of competing at the highest level, and in the short term bringing in CL football.
 
Sid234 said:
Yeah, like you said that's the main we let younger players go.. not because we write them off, but it's because they have an offer for 1st team football elsewhere and we don't want to stand in their way.
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Apart from Pogba and maybe Fryers I don't think we've let a single academy player go (not on loan) that we thought at the time could later make the first team. If we believed in them they got a loan, not sold. Maybe buyback clauses make more sense than loans for some players nowadays.
 
TwoSheds said:
Apart from Pogba and maybe Fryers I don't think we've let a single academy player go (not on loan) that we thought at the time could later make the first team. If we believed in them they got a loan, not sold. Maybe buyback clauses make more sense than loans for some players nowadays.
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I'm very sure we tried to keep Drinkwater, Daehli, Shawcross, Pique, Rossi and Pearson to name a few, they had new contract offers but decided to leave to pursue first team football. We didn't guarantee them 1st team football, which is why they left. Zeki Fryers left for a similar reason. Fergie said he'd give him 1st team football but wouldn't guarantee him a spot in the team, while Spurs tapped him up offering him tons of money and 1st team football. That's why we got pissed and tried to block the deal, since Spurs went behind our back to try and get him to leave on a free transfer at the end of the season.
 
RedRover said:
Rashford has had a huge impact on games recently, so how you can suggest he's being "misused" is bizarre. Seems to me like you're trying to explain away something that doesn't fit in with your opinion that Mourinho has something against young players. Martial has had chances but has been inconsistent and in my opinion, the team comes first.

This lad is 21. I haven't seen him play so perhaps this is a mistake, but the difference from u23 level to first team is huge. As an aside, the other night on Talksport they had managers on talking about how it's not representative of the PL because it's not physical or intense enough to compare. The reality is that a lot of players who excel at that level may never be good enough for the PL, never mind at a top club like United who want to be challenging for titles and in Europe against the very best.

There are loads of players United have moved on from the academy playing up and down the leagues and have been better for it. If a player isn't likely to be first team materiel (and by the age of 21 that's likely to be evident) then its better for them to be allowed to move on and build a career elsewhere.

If Mourinho felt he wasn't good enough to get a chance then as the manager he should be backed to make those decisions. The managers job isn't to build a team of young local lads but to build a squad capable of competing at the highest level, and in the short term bringing in CL football.
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Your argument is valid but in Goss case he lost a lot of times through injuries so generally need more patience. Plus we actually offered him a new contract (at 21, means that we still rate him somewhat) but he wants first team football and doesn't feel that he will get enough chances here.

People here did not argue for Goss because he excelled in the U23s league (he did though) but because the attributes he has shown (his passing and touch in particular) are as a very impressive level and not easy to find.

That's just to reply to your argument. I personally feel Goss has taken the best option considering his injury records and with some luck he can still reach the level that could make us interested for a buy-back. There's no shame about that.
 
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dichinero said:
Unfortunately I do not see any youth coming through or even getting a proper chance under José. He's not going to change his spots all of a sudden is he which is a shame given that United are big on given youth a chance. Jose's handling of youth is nothing to write home about. Rashford has been misused imo, we don't know what is going on with Shaw, Martial is getting dropped at every opportunity, who the hell is TFM? Goss is the closest thing to Carrick who has been instrumental to our run is getting sold without getting a single chance. You'd think that when Carrick is unfit it would make sense to replace him with a very similar player, having isolated Bastian and sold Schneiderlin.

A big shame really.
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Neither Fergie or van Gaal would give Goss a chance to replace Carrick this season, to blame Mourinho for that is ridiculous. Youth players rarely get chances in that midfield position, Fergie played Park and Rafael there instead of giving chance to youth players(Pogba and co who were actually much more "proven" than the current lot of youth players).

Agree some players like Fosu should have played more but Goss would hardly get a chance even under Fergie. He has just 6 games for the reserves this season anyway, in those six games they won just one game.
 
Amar__ said:
Neither Fergie or van Gaal would give Goss a chance to replace Carrick this season, to blame Mourinho for that is ridiculous. Youth players rarely get chances in that midfield position, Fergie played Park and Rafael there instead of giving chance to youth players(Pogba and co who were actually much more "proven" than the current lot of youth players).

Agree some players like Fosu should have played more but Goss would hardly get a chance even under Fergie. He has just 6 games for the reserves this season anyway, in those six games they won just one game.
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I'm not saying that he should replace Carrick but the fact that he has a similar skill set that has been fundamental to our best run, it makes sense that he should be considered at the very least. If a player is never considered or given a chance, how will they progress. The players we spend millions on are there because someone also gave them a chance not because they were tearing up other teams every game.
 
to be fair we always overrate our academy players a bit, expecting them to slot in first team at various positions. Over the years, Rothwell Pearson Wilson Thorpe were all seen as nailed on to start for us but now they would do very well at present to get into a midtable PL side. The step up from reserves to first team is often underestimated and the managers who are experienced are in better position to judge players whether they are good or not to get into the first team.
 
prath92 said:
to be fair we always overrate our academy players a bit, expecting them to slot in first team at various positions. Over the years, Rothwell Pearson Wilson Thorpe were all seen as nailed on to start for us but now they would do very well at present to get into a midtable PL side. The step up from reserves to first team is often underestimated and the managers who are experienced are in better position to judge players whether they are good or not to get into the first team.
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Do you think then that just because those players are not tearing it up elsewhere that they would never have been good enough for United? If you do then I'd have to disagree as I don't think it's ever that simple, the cream doesn't always necessarily rise to the top. Players tend to do better amongst better players and I think we would have seen that with all four of the players you mentioned and just because they don't set the world alight at lesser teams I don't think that always vindicates the decision to sell them.
 
TwoSheds said:
I'm glad we didn't. Neither is good enough.
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Drinkwater would be useful depth. He can spot a pass and isn't bad defensively. If he was here right now we could play him this week, for example, either against Hull or Wigan with Carrick playing the other.

Basically, he's better than Fellaini as a regular CM or DM.
 
spenzo said:
Do you think then that just because those players are not tearing it up elsewhere that they would never have been good enough for United? If you do then I'd have to disagree as I don't think it's ever that simple, the cream doesn't always necessarily rise to the top. Players tend to do better amongst better players and I think we would have seen that with all four of the players you mentioned and just because they don't set the world alight at lesser teams I don't think that always vindicates the decision to sell them.
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Thats a fair yardstick dont you think? Im of the belief if the player has the talent and hardwork, they can certainly get to the top even from the very bottom. The likes of Alli, Smalling and all come to mind. Kante was playing Division 2 football in france in 13/14 and now would probably end up being a PL winner in 2 years for 2 different sides and a runner up medal for his country.

I do agree that hardwork and work ethic is probably more important than talent for a player which is why lingard starts over memphis and januzaj but if the players we sell play at a relatively average level at the new club, its not a leap to assume that they werent really good enough for united either.
 
khoazany said:
Your argument is valid but in Goss case he lost a lot of times through injuries so generally need more patience. Plus we actually offered him a new contract (at 21, means that we still rate him somewhat) but he wants first team football and doesn't feel that he will get enough chances here.

People here did not argue for Goss because he excelled in the U23s league (he did though) but because the attributes he has shown (his passing and touch in particular) are as a very impressive level and not easy to find.

That's just to reply to your argument. I personally feel Goss has taken the best option considering his injury records and with some luck he can still reach the level that could make us interested for a buy-back. There's no shame about that.
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Obviously not enough to give him a game yet - or have the intention to do so in the near future if he's being allowed to move on. Had Mourinho felt he might be required he wouldn't betting him go even if the player wanted to.

People are entitled to their opinion and to be disappointed to see him go, that's fair enough - it's the sticking the boot into the manager over it I don't get.

There have been countless young players moved on over the years who a lot on here have moaned about us letting go. Some disappeared, some did well, as did some others few seemed to rate.

Some young players get a chance due to injuries or a lucky break and some don't - that's just how it is. Best of luck to him and at least it seems United may have the sense to include some kind of clause giving them first dibs later on if required.
 
NoPace said:
Drinkwater would be useful depth. He can spot a pass and isn't bad defensively. If he was here right now we could play him this week, for example, either against Hull or Wigan with Carrick playing the other.

Basically, he's better than Fellaini as a regular CM or DM.
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While that isn't untrue, the simple fact is a lot of players would have moved on to find first team football long before their chance comes along.
 
prath92 said:
Thats a fair yardstick dont you think? Im of the belief if the player has the talent and hardwork, they can certainly get to the top even from the very bottom. The likes of Alli, Smalling and all come to mind. Kante was playing Division 2 football in france in 13/14 and now would probably end up being a PL winner in 2 years for 2 different sides and a runner up medal for his country.

I do agree that hardwork and work ethic is probably more important than talent for a player which is why lingard starts over memphis and januzaj but if the players we sell play at a relatively average level at the new club, its not a leap to assume that they werent really good enough for united either.
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I understand where you're coming from, I just believe that for many different reasons a player with ability might not always make it up the levels. For every Alli or Smalling, there's another player that was overlooked.

Obviously a club or its fans won't come to regret the decision to sell a player if they don't pull up trees elsewhere but nonethless I still think there's been players, not only at united but other top clubs too that, given the chance, would've been at the required level. With most of them we'll never know to be fair.
 
NoPace said:
Drinkwater would be useful depth. He can spot a pass and isn't bad defensively. If he was here right now we could play him this week, for example, either against Hull or Wigan with Carrick playing the other.

Basically, he's better than Fellaini as a regular CM or DM.
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Drinkwater has been awful this season. Really bad in every game I've seen him.

Smart move from Goss. Young players get a lot out of playing week-in, week-out so if the opportunity comes he really should take it since he's so far from the first team. If he's good enough he'll come back.
 
Snow said:
Drinkwater has been awful this season. Really bad in every game I've seen him.

Smart move from Goss. Young players get a lot out of playing week-in, week-out so if the opportunity comes he really should take it since he's so far from the first team. If he's good enough he'll come back.
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Leicester have been terrible this season. I think Goss has the right skill sets to be a good CM in the PL, hopefully he can stay injury free and get some much needed 1st team action.

Basically all the issues with younger players not being good enough for the 1st team is how poor the reserves league is rather than a lack of potential or skills. Players waste their development after the 1st year in the Reserves unfortunately and hopefully Jose intends to change how we do things and plan to send more youngsters out on loan after a year in the reserves.
 
Sid234 said:
Leicester have been terrible this season. I think Goss has the right skill sets to be a good CM in the PL, hopefully he can stay injury free and get some much needed 1st team action.

Basically all the issues with younger players not being good enough for the 1st team is how poor the reserves league is rather than a lack of potential or skills. Players waste their development after the 1st year in the Reserves unfortunately and hopefully Jose intends to change how we do things and plan to send more youngsters out on loan after a year in the reserves.
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Hopefully the talks of us buying a club come to fruition and solve that problem.
 
Sid234 said:
I agree, looks like getting a B team of some sorts in the English football system will never happen.
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Why should it? The football league is popular in its own right, it's not there to help the PL clubs out.
 
spenzo said:
I understand where you're coming from, I just believe that for many different reasons a player with ability might not always make it up the levels. For every Alli or Smalling, there's another player that was overlooked.

Obviously a club or its fans won't come to regret the decision to sell a player if they don't pull up trees elsewhere but nonethless I still think there's been players, not only at united but other top clubs too that, given the chance, would've been at the required level. With most of them we'll never know to be fair.
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I think its evident that getting a shot at a big club is as much about luck as ability.

Had Keane (now hardly playing at Hull) not got injured in the warm up Rashford (new contract, highly rated, international) may not have got his chance.

However highly rated a young player might be, until they get a chance you never know if they're good enough. Sometimes circumstances are such that they don't get a chance, especially at thdbigger clubs where the competition for places is particularly tough.
 
RedRover said:
I think its evident that getting a shot at a big club is as much about luck as ability.

Had Keane (now hardly playing at Hull) not got injured in the warm up Rashford (new contract, highly rated, international) may not have got his chance.

However highly rated a young player might be, until they get a chance you never know if they're good enough. Sometimes circumstances are such that they don't get a chance, especially at thdbigger clubs where the competition for places is particularly tough.
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Well he's injured and out for the season. Before that he made 5 league appearances (not interesting on starting a discussion about Will Keane, just try to correct the fact).
 
Good luck to him. I hope he lives up to the hype he's been given on here.
 
RedRover said:
Why should it? The football league is popular in its own right, it's not there to help the PL clubs out.
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Well, then people shouldn't complain about the quality of young players coming through in English football. B teams don't have the financial pressures of surviving in the league, and can prioritize playing younger players, give them competitive first team football early and help them develop rather than spend 2-3 years playing in a reserve league that does nothing reall
 
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