Saka vs Foden vs Palmer

[Teja]

Useless versatility? I don’t even know what that means.

Saka can play all of those positions as well. He just doesn’t anymore because we play him in his best position. That tends to happen with a team’s most influential players.

And what does “when he was younger” even mean? He’s 22. Those 209 first team appearances (virtually all starts) have all come in recent years.

Once again, I totally get preferring Foden - he’s great. But you know Saka must be a pretty good player when you have to invent concepts like “useless versatility” to criticise him.

I mean you're being intentionally difficult here. Saka played some games at other positions (as every player does) coming through the youth system but he established himself at RW. We, for example, don't claim that McTominay is extremely versatile because he played some games at CF and some games at #10. It doesn't matter that Saka played LWB or CM at 19 - He'll not be a very good LWB or CM if you threw him there and that's not the kind of versatility you typically want from an attacker. The type of versatility that's useful for an attacker is, say to fill in for others (say Jesus or Odegaard when they're out) or swap positions quickly during the course of a game. Guys like Jota, Neto, Foden etc. are really good at it. So far there's no evidence that Saka can play CF / #10 / LW at the same standard as he plays RW.

RW is his primary position, there's no real problem with that.

 

[Daydreamer]

I mean you're being intentionally difficult here.

Nope, you're just not making much sense.

Saka played some games at other positions (as every player does) coming through the youth system but he established himself at RW.

He's played over 60 games at LB / LWB / CM for Arsenal's first team. Almost all starts.

It doesn't matter that Saka played LWB or CM at 19 - He'll not be a very good LWB or CM if you threw him there

If you honestly think the reason Saka no longer plays LWB is because he wouldn't be very good there, it's kind of hard to take you seriously.

So far there's no evidence that Saka can play CF / #10 / LW at the same standard as he plays RW.

Of course there isn't. Just like Salah doesn't play CF/CAM/LW as well as he plays RW. He's still a versatile player who would perform extremely well in those positions. But no Manager would shift him around the pitch because they want to play their best players in their best positions.

 

[Hammondo]

Eh. Kind of agree but it's very close. Other than tight spaces, where I'd argue he has a physical advantage more than a technical one

I would say saka has the physical, speed and strength, but has no technical advantages. Saka isn't really a particularly technical player, good but not stand out.

 

[Hammondo]

Nope, you're just not making much sense.


He's played over 60 games at LB / LWB / CM for Arsenal's first team. Almost all starts.


If you honestly think the reason Saka no longer plays LWB is because he wouldn't be very good there, it's kind of hard to take you seriously.


Of course there isn't. Just like Salah doesn't play CF/CAM/LW as well as he plays RW. He's still a versatile player who would perform extremely well in those positions. But no Manager would shift him around the pitch because they want to play their best players in their best positions.

When did he play extremely well in those positions for you to say that?

 

[zbcrow15]

Which level is that? Foden is on 8+7 g+a and Saka is on 8+8 this season.

Last two seasons Saka also produced more. It's just facts.

Last year Saka had 14 total goals and 11 assist in 3194 minutes. Foden has 11 goals and 4 assists in 1842. So to say that Saka has produced more in the last two seasons is very disrespectful of Foden's ability. Foden has one less assist this year in 200 less minutes as well.

 

[lex talionis]

Which level is that? Foden is on 8+7 g+a and Saka is on 8+8 this season.

Last two seasons Saka also produced more. It's just facts.

Both are exceptional footballers and anyone who prefers Saka to Foden won't hear a complaint for me, but if I were responsible for addressing a need on the front line it would be a pretty call -- Foden.

Another way to think about the two is that Saka is fantastic RW but really can only play at RW effectively (and there's nothing wrong with that!), whereas Foden is highly effective anywhere along the front line.

 

[giorno]

I would say saka has the physical, speed and strength, but has no technical advantages. Saka isn't really a particularly technical player, good but not stand out.

Disagree about Saka. And Foden definitely has a been physical advantage in tight spaces - smaller, lower center of gravity, greater agility and quicker footwork

 

[V.O.]

Before Bellingham's rise to PR king any decent England manager would have built a team around Foden (that included Saka anyway), but people can't seriously be judging a player like Foden on what Gareth Southgate does with him?

Scoring 18 goals from midfield for Real Madrid in half a season at age 20 does tend to do wonders for your PR to be fair.

 

[Daydreamer]

When did he play extremely well in those positions for you to say that?

Pretty much the entire time. He broke into both Arsenal's first team and the senior England team at LB / LWB. He continued to be selected in those positions ahead of far more experienced options... over 60 times. Because he was exceptional.

I know there are people trying to argue that Guardiola's selections have nothing to do with player performance, but I can assure you that Emery's and Arteta's do.

 

[Posh Red]

Foden is definitely better. If he was played in his favoured position every week, it would be clear. Foden will probably retire as the most decorated English player ever. I get that he has an advantage playing for City, but he’s a level above Saka. Saka is class, though.

 

[FeedTheGoat]

Sorry but I cba to explain his situation with Pep during his time there.

Often dropped because he is the easiest one to drop because of his background. He has been in rotation with several proper world-class players for years and often been our best performer.

 

[Donaldo]

Saka is not consistent I'm sorry. He often vanishes.

Right. Comparing Saka's consistency notes with *checks notes* Phil Foden.

 

[utdalltheway]

No fav for me but I’ve always liked Saka; he’s so fun to watch and his skill is amazing.
I’ve not seen Foden play in person. Would like to get a good look at his play.
Have they played on the same field much for England or does southgate prefer to use one or the other?

 

[ROFLUTION]

Last year Saka had 14 total goals and 11 assist in 3194 minutes. Foden has 11 goals and 4 assists in 1842. So to say that Saka has produced more in the last two seasons is very disrespectful of Foden's ability. Foden has one less assist this year in 200 less minutes as well.

Yes, but it’s very natural to perform better when only on the field for lesser time.

They’re quite equal to me, but the post I responded to called Foden on another level than Saka, which I don’t think is fair to say at all.

 

[Hammondo]

Pretty much the entire time. He broke into both Arsenal's first team and the senior England team at LB / LWB. He continued to be selected in those positions ahead of far more experienced options... over 60 times. Because he was exceptional.

I know there are people trying to argue that Guardiola's selections have nothing to do with player performance, but I can assure you that Emery's and Arteta's do.

Well I cannot find these stats for LB / LWB anywhere, everywhere just says RW. Anyway youngsters get played for experience, doesn't mean they played well never mind extremely well, only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

 

[Daydreamer]

Well I cannot find these stats for LB / LWB anywhere, everywhere just says RW. Anyway youngsters get played for experience, doesn't mean they played well never mind extremely well, only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

So because you can’t find the stats (that I linked to higher up in the thread) they don’t exist?

And means we gave an 17-19 year old 60 top flight starts, just for the hell of it? As did the England team, apparently?

And he just coincidentally happened to go on to play over 200 times for Arsenal and pick up over 30 England caps by the age of 22? All of this came from poor performances as he broke through?

We’ve hit the conspiracy theory stage in this thread, now.

Pep didn’t bench Foden because he thought that was best for the team. No, it’s because he’s “a psychopath”.

Foden wasnt dropped because the likes of de Bruyne / D. Silva / B. Silva / Gundogan were (or, in some cases, still are) better players than him. No, his selection - unlike pretty much any other player - had “nothing to do with his performances”.

Saka’s status as a nailed on starter for a team challenging for top honours and a national side with serious competition for places isn’t the result of playing well when first breaking through as a LB/LWB. No, in fact “there is nothing to suggest“ Saka did well in those roles. That he was selected for. Over 60 times. As teenager. For both club and country.

 

[Hammondo]

So because you can’t find the stats (that I linked to higher up in the thread) they don’t exist?

And means we gave an 17-19 year old 60 top flight starts, just for the hell of it? As did the England team, apparently?

And he just coincidentally happened to go on to play over 200 times for Arsenal and pick up over 30 England caps by the age of 22? All of this came from poor performances as he broke through?

We’ve hit the conspiracy theory stage in this thread, now.

Pep didn’t bench Foden because he thought that was best for the team. No, it’s because he’s “a psychopath”.

Foden wasnt dropped because the likes of de Bruyne / D. Silva / B. Silva / Gundogan were (or, in some cases, still are) better players than him. No, his selection - unlike pretty much any other player - had “nothing to do with his performances”.

Saka’s status as a nailed on starter for a team challenging for top honours and a national side with serious competition for places isn’t the result of playing well when first breaking through as a LB/LWB. No, in fact “there is nothing to suggest“ Saka did well in those roles. That he was selected for. Over 60 times. As teenager. For both club and country.

Ok I found your link, I assume you mean this.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/buk...n=&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=

Firstly these are appearances and not starts, they could be on average 15 mins each (not saying they are).

A total of 22 at left-back, 7 central midfield,

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bukayo-saka/nationalmannschaft/spieler/433177/verein_id/3299/plus/0?hauptwettbewerb=&wettbewerb_id=&trainer_id=&start=Oct+8,+2020&ende=Feb+9,+2024&nurEinsatz=0

As it shows hes only ever played left or right midfield, or left or right wing for England.

Not sure how this:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3574735

Counts as left midfield, but it is what it is.

Christ you should see the amount of positions Foden has played.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/phil-foden/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/406635

He must be amazing at all of them.

 

[Daydreamer]

Firstly these are appearances and not starts, they could be on average 15 mins each (not saying they are).

They're virtually all starts. That info is available on the page if you look for it. Also, millions of people watched him. You clearly know very little about Saka (which is understandable - you're not an Arsenal fan) but lots of people do.

A total of 22 at left-back, 7 central midfield,

Correct. He's played in 22 games as a LB in a back 4 and 7 as a CM.

As it shows hes only ever played left or right midfield, or left or right wing for England.

On Transfermarkt, LM means LWB. Which is also obvious for anyone that watched Saka's breakthrough. Arteta and Southgate both favoured 3-5-2 at the time.

You don't seem to have even a passing knowledge of the first Saka's breakthrough. And there's no reason for you to know much about him. But it does make sweeping statements like:

only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

...seem somewhat silly. Of course there'll be nothing to suggest he played well in those roles to you if you know very little about him.

 

[OL29]

Foden at his best is possibly more devastating but if I had to take one for United, or if I was building a team from scratch I’d probably choose Saka as he seems to able to perform regardless of external circumstances. Ultimately there’s not much between them at all and a lot of people’s choice is dictated by current form.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Well I cannot find these stats for LB / LWB anywhere, everywhere just says RW. Anyway youngsters get played for experience, doesn't mean they played well never mind extremely well, only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

At least he’s actually had a season of being among the best in some position.

 

[Daydreamer]

Foden at his best is possibly more devastating but if I had to take one for United, or if I was building a team from scratch I’d probably choose Saka as he seems to able to perform regardless of external circumstances. Ultimately there’s not much between them at all and a lot of people’s choice is dictated by current form.

That's true, Foden is amazing with a functioning system of top-class players (much like his Manager). Saka is a little more plug and play.

They're both great. My decision would be based mostly on the position I most need to fill.

 

[BlueMoonOutcast]

Scoring 18 goals from midfield for Real Madrid in half a season at age 20 does tend to do wonders for your PR to be fair.

Real.

That said though I've already seen him in all time England XI's.

 

[Hammondo]

At least he’s actually had a season of being among the best in some position.

True

 

[ZainCRse7en]

Think the real comparison should be Odegaard or Foden. I'll take Odegaard to Utd over both Saka and Foden every single day of the week.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

 

[ThierryHenry]

Well I cannot find these stats for LB / LWB anywhere, everywhere just says RW. Anyway youngsters get played for experience, doesn't mean they played well never mind extremely well, only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

If you don’t remember Saka playing at left back, I’m not sure you’ve been watching closely enough to judge in this thread.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Think the real comparison should be Odegaard or Foden. I'll take Odegaard to Utd over both Saka and Foden every single day of the week.

That is a weird one for me. You have to look at how much of an upgrade players are. Odegaard is far less of an upgrade on Bruno and Mount than Saka is on our winger options.

Saka and Garnacho on opposite wings would be very exciting.

 

[Hammondo]

If you don’t remember Saka playing at left back, I’m not sure you’ve been watching closely enough to judge in this thread.

Or maybe its in your head.

 

[Gene Loblaw]

Nice brace. Could’ve had a hatty if not for a great save. Still time to get his third.

starboy

 

[Daydreamer]

Well... I think Saka's pretty good.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Or maybe its in your head.

Err, ok. Transfermarkt has 22 games at left-back, and 64 games at left midfield, the majority of which were as the left wingback in a 3-4-3/ 5-2-3. That was where he largely played until Boxing Day 2020.

 

[Daydreamer]

Err, ok. Transfermarkt has 22 games at left-back, and 64 games at left midfield, the majority of which were as the left wingback in a 3-4-3/ 5-2-3. That was where he largely played until Boxing Day 2020.

I think that was sarcasm. At least, I hope it was.

 

[Sniper007]

Well I cannot find these stats for LB / LWB anywhere, everywhere just says RW. Anyway youngsters get played for experience, doesn't mean they played well never mind extremely well, only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

You don’t need stats to know Saka played at left back for Arsenal. In fact, he would often change mid game from LB to RW during that season. It’s strange to argue against something which is factually correct.

 

[Donaldo]

Well I cannot find these stats for LB / LWB anywhere, everywhere just says RW. Anyway youngsters get played for experience, doesn't mean they played well never mind extremely well, only the top players play extremely well and there is nothing to suggest saka did in those roles.

 

[Hammondo]

You don’t need stats to know Saka played at left back for Arsenal. In fact, he would often change mid game from LB to RW during that season. It’s strange to argue against something which is factually correct.

I am not saying he didn't play it, of course he did, but he didn't play that many games and he wasn't exceptional at it, he was pretty good.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I would choose Saka any day of the week. Foden is a good player but Saka is just top class player.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I am not saying he didn't play it, of course he did, but he didn't play that many games and he wasn't exceptional at it, he was pretty good.

Just take the L on this one

 

[roonster09]

I am not saying he didn't play it, of course he did, but he didn't play that many games and he wasn't exceptional at it, he was pretty good.

Just say you didn't watch him, as simple as that. Saka was very good at every position he played.

 

[Daydreamer]

I am not saying he didn't play it, of course he did, but he didn't play that many games and he wasn't exceptional at it, he was pretty good.

Oh, you’re not being sarcastic.

Saka played 21 games at LB...
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/buk...verein=11&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=4&trainer_id=

And 35 games at LWB...
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/buk...verein=11&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=9&trainer_id=

Of those 56 appearances, 41 were starts. That's the entirety of his breakthrough season, plus the following season when he became one of the first names on the team sheet. And was called up to the senior England side for his first cap. At LWB.

You confidently stating that he wasn't exceptional is pretty laughable; you quite literally don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Lincm]

Or maybe its in your head.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/bukay.../liga/0/wettbewerb//pos/4/trainer_id/0/plus/1

Filter by position - left back
Scored a goal and assisted 5 times from that position.
played a lot on the left during the 19/20 season when he was breaking through.

When he was playing in the youth league, he often played everywhere along the left and CM, and he often demonstrated consistency also when he was playing for the england U23/21/18 teams.

Most non Arsenal fans assume he's only recently been playing at a high level. But his maturity shown through in the early years and he's been doing this for a while now. So Arsenal fans are just delighted he's growing from strength to strength and become very productive.