This is a very good point. Foden, Bellingham, Saka are some of the outstanding young players in this generation for England.I would take Saka over Foden. I think he would be good in any team, whereas Foden might not be as good.
Plus, I would hate to have to look at Foden's face playing for us every week
Edit: oh yeah and I'd take Odegaard over both.
Saka vs Foden vs Palmer
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
- Start date
Have people been watching Saka this season? He looks half the player that he used to be.
Opinions some will agree some won't.
Their are plenty of intagiables that are relevant to a players quality which are not captured in productivity metrics.
Overall we are more knowledgable about tactics, the game etc however we have also skewed out evaluations (as fans/media) to productivity probably too much in the direction, that's just my opinion though.
I agree that he looks a bit knackered as he played so much football for a 22 year old. But their stats are very similar.
In PL - both have 22 appearances, 8 goals ad 7 assists (identical stats)
In CL - both have 5 appearances; Saka has 3 goals and 4 assists. Foden 3 goals and 2 assists.
In FA Cup - Saka had 1 appearance, no goals & no assists. Of course Arsenal are now out. Foden has 2 apps, 2 goals 0 assists.
So if this is Saka half-baked, I'm not worried. He has incredible output.
Saka takes penalties, set pieces and plays 90 mins every game. Foden does all that from open play.
This Saka fella sounds great.
Foden easily.
Agile, elegant, deft.
Agile, elegant, deft.
Not sure that diminishes what he does? You could argue Saka is then the more mature, complete player as he takes on such responsibility for one so young. And hardly gets injured to boot, always available and physically resilient.
In truth they're both brilliant and would love Foden at Arsenal, obviously. But I wouldn't swap Saka for anyone in the world.
https://fbref.com/tiny/bWx08
Actually it's closer than I thought even with per 90s. npXG+xAG/90 is 0.5 for Foden v 0.63 for Saka. So it's not even considering penalties here, we can put that away.
Everything else (passing, ball carrying, defensive output etc.) seems like a wash. Infact https://fbref.com/tiny/fGXbo (Saka 22-23 vs Saka 23-24) is even more surprising. He seems to be doing better this season by any metric than last.
Last edited:
Yeh, that's why I'm not bothered if this is Saka not at his best. I do think as far as the eye test goes, he isn't as dynamic as last season. But I think that's true for the team as a whole, and Saka gets double or triple teamed all the time now. He's said himself he needs to find new ways to evolve and find the breakthrough in games, as teams target him more than ever. I have little doubt he'll figure it out.
Fodden could be a genuine giant of the game providing he’s given a free role as a hybrid 8/10 who orchestrates the game, something Saka can not do however as an out and out right winger Saka has far more threat, he’s quicker more direct and more dangerous when he cuts in plus his ability to go outside as well as inside makes him highly unpredictable.
Look at their England national team stats
Bakary Saka Played 32 Goals 11 Assists 5
- 1 Goal Involvement in every 2 Games
Phil Fodden played 31 Goals 4. Assists 7
- 1 Goal involvement 2.82 Games
Currently Saka is better for England Stats don’t lie, But Phil Fodden should be playing as a hybrid 8/10 Next to Bellingham and Rice in a seriously talented midfield.
The fact that Southgate could potentially wise up and pick Maddison, Barkley or Lofthouse Cheek and Mainoo as back ups rather than Henderson, Phillips or Gallagher could be the difference between England wining their first silverware in 6 decades.
No question, Foden
My opinion on this keeps changin…
I prefer Saka. Think he’s more dangerous and more consistent. Think Foden benefits from playing in this ridiculous City side, and blows much more hot and cold. He’s very talented, but there’s always a question with him about what his best position is and where he should play. With Saka, you know exactly where and how to play him. Given the choice of the two, I’d take Saka every time; although Foden is a player I still very much appreciate.
I agree with the poster a few posts up who says England should have a midfield - at times - of Rice, Bellingham and Foden. Round out the front three with probably Grealish, Kane and Saka. That’s a ridiculous front six at international level. The defence is a bit ropey with Shaw, Maguire, Stones and James; but it’ll get the job done.
I agree with the poster a few posts up who says England should have a midfield - at times - of Rice, Bellingham and Foden. Round out the front three with probably Grealish, Kane and Saka. That’s a ridiculous front six at international level. The defence is a bit ropey with Shaw, Maguire, Stones and James; but it’ll get the job done.
It's nothing to do with maturity or completeness it's simply what his role is and that he doesn't play with the likes of Haaland and De Bruyne in the team who get those roles for City. It's hardly difficult to imagine that Foden would be able to perform all those duties if he played in a lesser team and the manager was one who plays the exact same team every match.
This is the easy thing to say though. We saw it with Palmer and he’s been absolute quality for Chelsea despite them being an average team. I’d imagine Foden would do the same tbh if he moved and played week in and week out with more reliability on him.
Haaland and de Bruyne have both missed a fair few matches and Foden hasn’t become the star of the team in their absence. In fact, his brilliant performance in City’s last match came with both of them in the lineup. Which is unsurprising, teams facing Foden literally have more important players than him to worry about. On the other hand, Saka is doubled up on pretty much every match.
de Bruyne and Haaland aren’t in the England team. Yet Foden isn’t indispensable for his national side either. He’s a fantastic player who has won all there is to win at club level in his early 20s. That truly is amazing. But is there a single one of those trophies that City wouldn’t have won in his absence? Probably not.
Also, Arteta doesn’t play the same team every match - he just plays Saka every match that he’s available for. Just like Guardiola plays de Bruyne whenever he is fit. That’s what every Manager does with key players.
That's why I said "it can be argued that...". I guess in this City team where there are better players at set pieces, Foden doesn't have the chance to develop/show that side of his game as often. He does take corners but I don't think is first choice like Saka is.
But I don't think simply because Saka does have greater responsibility at Arsenal in set pieces, that lessens what he does because he may not score/assist as much from open play. Personally I've never understood the tendency to devalue penalties, set piece goals etc because they're not from open play. At this level sometimes a set piece is what gets you the breakthrough in a tight game. You need to try to gain any bit of advantage you can.
Prefer Saka. But Foden is very good too.
Foden.
There's no question Saka is a great player and deserves his place and status, but it's also pretty unfair for Foden if you discard the competition he has at City vs the competition Saka has had at Arsenal, I'm sorry but it's not comparable. And that has obviously contributed to Saka's stats that was the initial post. Foden right from his initial days has competed with far better quality players and broken through into a star studded team and performed at a high level for a team that wins the league and is a contender for CL every season. Even last game, he was played on the left wing while a 100m signing and a highly rated player like Grealish and a new signing in Doku both of whom are natural left wingers were left on the bench, because of what Foden brings to the pitch. Players like De Bruyne and Haaland have raved about how difficult it is for teams to contain the combination that they form with Foden, and it's absolutely not easy for any player to establish themselves in a Pep team like Foden has. And it's pretty obvious to see that few players have the ability to open up teams like he does.
Your question about whether City would have won the trophies without him is highly disrespectful, it is a team sport, they compete for every singly trophy and play an awful lot of games, go ask his manager and teammates on whether they think he contributed to the success or not. He's not getting those trophies as a charity.
And that's all, simply comparing their goal and assist stats to define one as a better player when they have had completely circumstances and competition to compete with is pretty disingenuous. Jarrod Bowen has more goals than Saka this season without having penalties, but I doubt you'd think someone using that without putting any context like Bowen being West Ham's primary goal threat and playing OOP. It makes no sense.
I think they're quite close in ability and it comes down to what your preference is in a style/footballer. I much prefer watching Foden play and he just edges it for me.
Like I said above I couldn't be more appreciative of what Saka does, just that I wouldn't be using G+A stat comparison and use it as a black and white test. As for penalties, you can score a penalty without having any contribution towards the action that created the chance or won the penalty, so yes there is a reason that penalties can inflate anyone's stats and that we use NP for both actual and expected data. Players like Douglas Luiz and James Ward Prowse are penalty takers, and end up with goals to their name without really having any role for that goal creating action.
I think we can easily appreciate Saka's quality and achievements without having to resort to vanilla stats, or worse use them as a stick to beat another equally excellent player who performing at an equally high level.
I haven't disregarded the competition he has at City at all. My entire point is based around it - when the opposition has Haaland / de Bruyne / Silva etc to worry about, Foden gets less attention from the opposition. And it's a lot easier to rack up assists when you have the best goalscorer on the planet up front.
None of this is controversial. None of it means Foden isn't a brilliant player (as I've said several times).
I don't think it's disrespectful to question whether City would have won those trophies without him. I also don't think the answer to the question is in much doubt. He's a valuable member of the team and has earned every medal he has... but he hasn't been instrumental to City's success. That isn't a dig, it's praising City's squad building, if anything.
And I haven't mention Saka's G/A. His output happens to be better than Foden's, but that isn't the reason I rate him higher.
I used goals/assist in response to another poster saying Saka has dropped off this season, showing that him perhaps not being at his best is still matching Foden's output. I don't think there is a clear superior player between the two, but the reason I would prefer Saka is I think he offers more defensively, or perhaps it's just the difference in how the teams are set up. This comparison Saka v Foden shows that offensively there's very little splitting them this season. Their stats are very similar. But defensively Saka looks to be doing a lot more work - tackles and aerial battles he's way ahead. Again, could just be due to the differences in their roles for their teams. But considering Saka broke into the Arsenal first team playing at LB, it's probably fair to say that he is the better defender. Foden IMO is the more elegant, eye catching player. But Saka is a workhorse that just keeps on going. It's no joke that Arsenal fans are worried he'll be run into the ground as we have no proper cover for him.
Saka was excellent last season but has been nothing special this one
I’m partial to Saka as I think he’s been more consistent
Think Foden might be marginally the better player currently, they're so close in their development I wouldn't be surprised if Saka pulled ahead again next season.
And my response to the number was that him matching Foden's numbers this season while also having set pieces and penalties is more credit to Foden as he is doing that all from open play. Saka also plays with forwards like Jesus who drop deep and allow him to get into central areas, while Foden has a huge nordic guy hogging a far higher xG share for Man City, and it was really last game when Pep came out and said Haaland is facilitating others, and it was specific to Brentford's tactics, usually Foden has to operate much wide and deeper and pretty much supply all the chances to Haaland. ETC. So in short there's far more than counting goals and assists to what each of them do for their teams which is why for me it wasn't a valid argument.
The rest of it is perfectly valid of course and in the end, there's very little you can take out from one guy's performance to overshadow the other, when both are very different players, in different roles and setups and contributing at a high level in their own ways. If I look at their journeys, for me it is always a tougher thing to stand out in a star studded squad that has been there at Man City, where we have seen plenty come and go, as opposed to one where there's much more time and patience given to the main players as they don't have the kind of backup options that City do.
Arteta gave him the Ole treatment and played him endlessly over the recent years. Feel like it's rearing it's head now a bit
Yeh we need to get some decent cover for him. However, he does seem to have the ability to play at 60-70% and still put in a solid shift.
Saka is looking more and more like Antony in my eyes. More efficient and better than Antony, but with the same style of play, losing balls and shooting at the far post almost every time.
Foden is a far better player.
Technical breakdown of metrics
Best player list
Saka was a category leader in April 2022. These guys are pretty credible:
https://www.cies.ch/en/cies/home/
Best player list
Saka was a category leader in April 2022. These guys are pretty credible:
https://www.cies.ch/en/cies/home/
Saka's great but comparison irrelevant.
Foden's stats are good with G14 A10 in all comps. Not bad that
It's been his best season by far. He's played more minutes all comps than any other player, has finally won Pep's trust to play centrally and he's been brilliant.
If a player of the season vote at City tomorrow, Foden wins by a landslide. He's been MOTM for something like half of the games and singularly responsible for numerous wins but as always the MSM have only just switched on to how good he's been.
Against Brentford the other night his average position was by far the deepest of the front 5 and if that continues it becomes a case of comparing apples and pears with Saka. It's where he will end up permanently and looking into the future it will be no surprise if he goes on to hold the status KDB does now.
Foden's stats are good with G14 A10 in all comps. Not bad that
It's been his best season by far. He's played more minutes all comps than any other player, has finally won Pep's trust to play centrally and he's been brilliant.
If a player of the season vote at City tomorrow, Foden wins by a landslide. He's been MOTM for something like half of the games and singularly responsible for numerous wins but as always the MSM have only just switched on to how good he's been.
Against Brentford the other night his average position was by far the deepest of the front 5 and if that continues it becomes a case of comparing apples and pears with Saka. It's where he will end up permanently and looking into the future it will be no surprise if he goes on to hold the status KDB does now.
Typical British media, always undergoing British talent. They're renowned for it.Saka's great but comparison irrelevant.
Foden's stats are good with G14 A10 in all comps. Not bad that
It's been his best season by far. He's played more minutes all comps than any other player, has finally won Pep's trust to play centrally and he's been brilliant.
If a player of the season vote at City tomorrow, Foden wins by a landslide. He's been MOTM for something like half of the games and singularly responsible for numerous wins but as always the MSM have only just switched on to how good he's been.
Against Brentford the other night his average position was by far the deepest of the front 5 and if that continues it becomes a case of comparing apples and pears with Saka. It's where he will end up permanently and looking into the future it will be no surprise if he goes on to hold the status KDB does now.
So Saka offers more goals and assists every season, more consistent in his performances, vital in build up play and offers more defensively and he is "nowhere near as good".
Foden at his best is a beautiful footballer to watch but practically speaking there is nothing to say he is better than Saka.
Who's more talented? Foden. Dembele is also more naturally talented than Harry Kane.
Foden at his best is a beautiful footballer to watch but practically speaking there is nothing to say he is better than Saka.
Who's more talented? Foden. Dembele is also more naturally talented than Harry Kane.
Saka is not consistent I'm sorry. He often vanishes.
He has been more consistent that Foden for 3 years.
Is that really even up for question?
No white text?