If this is true it's absolutely disgusting. I'm sure it's not easy to disobey the orders of the higher ranks if you are in the military but the fact that the Russian soldiers are targeting civilians and doing stuff like this is appalling.
Russian War Crimes in Ukraine
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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If this is true it's absolutely disgusting. I'm sure it's not easy to disobey the orders of the higher ranks if you are in the military but the fact that the Russian soldiers are targeting civilians and doing stuff like this is appalling.
It happens in every war and was/is used systematically as a weapon.
I once read an analysis about sexual violence in WW II and it was shown that especially the russian, japanese and us-american military had significant higher rates in terms of sexual violence compared to the likes of French and the UK. There were lots of reasons as the russians and the japanese used this systematically on a regular basis in war times. To add to that, russian sexual violence was explained with the extreme high losses and the general poor standard of living in WW II, which brutalized them even more. There was no logical reason found for the american military, though, which I found quite interesting considering they were only directly involved for a relatively short time.
War crimes are inevitable imo. War is the most abhorrent human invention, creating an environment in which those involved are constantly exposed to death and horror, and the lives of themselves and their peers are constantly under threat. There's no way in that environment that people will act honourably. Gentlemanly conduct in war has probably always been a myth used to boost public perception of the military. Every war will have seen the participants using underhanded or barbaric tactics. It's war. Every action in war is a crime unless its in self defence, trying to separate 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' actions in war is redundant imo. Its all fecking unacceptable, and in such an extreme situation, extreme and repugnant events will always occur.
There's an article about Russian convoys travelling with a coach full of Ukrainian children to deter enemy fire. It's outrageous, disgusting, and you can't help but imagine how terrified those kids must be. It's also inevitable though is my point. If it makes it 1% better for the forces to do it, in an environment of constant death and horror, they will do it. If murdering civilians, rather than using resources to manage the situation, allows them to move on quickly with their next objective, they will do it. And the difficult thing psychologically to come to terms with, is that you would too, in the same situation. Their lives are on the line, honour, respect, compassion are not values they can afford in these situations, and the prevalence of such acts will only increase in the face of a stronger defence.
Rambling post but my main point is that I hope Russian people are not too harshly judged. Even the soldiers, because ultimately they're also victims of war. My ex is Russian and we've been talking recently and she has received abuse and xenophobic comments and is obviously upset about the whole situation. I hope people can keep in mind the true perpetrators in this which is the Russian government. Soldiers are and always will be human meat that is bought and manipulated to do the bidding of their masters. And Russian nationals are bystanders just as we are.
There's an article about Russian convoys travelling with a coach full of Ukrainian children to deter enemy fire. It's outrageous, disgusting, and you can't help but imagine how terrified those kids must be. It's also inevitable though is my point. If it makes it 1% better for the forces to do it, in an environment of constant death and horror, they will do it. If murdering civilians, rather than using resources to manage the situation, allows them to move on quickly with their next objective, they will do it. And the difficult thing psychologically to come to terms with, is that you would too, in the same situation. Their lives are on the line, honour, respect, compassion are not values they can afford in these situations, and the prevalence of such acts will only increase in the face of a stronger defence.
Rambling post but my main point is that I hope Russian people are not too harshly judged. Even the soldiers, because ultimately they're also victims of war. My ex is Russian and we've been talking recently and she has received abuse and xenophobic comments and is obviously upset about the whole situation. I hope people can keep in mind the true perpetrators in this which is the Russian government. Soldiers are and always will be human meat that is bought and manipulated to do the bidding of their masters. And Russian nationals are bystanders just as we are.
The biggest driving force is of course the Russian regime but Russian people are hardly bystanders. A vast majority of them actively support the invasion which simply cannot be ignored. Of course there are some people who are against it but Russia as a nation is brainwashed so much that I think the only way for them to change is if they fall really hard, like Nazi Germany did. It's not just Putin's war. It's Russia's war.
How do you know this? Do you know most Russians? Would you advocate violence or discrimination against US civilians who supported the war in Iraq/Vietman? Or on Israeli civilians who support the occupation of Palestine?
It's this type of thinking, by extremists themselves, that causes/encourages violence against innocent people who have nothing to do over wars and conflicts conducted by their governments.
You have a poorly trained, demoralised force in civilian territory. Recipe for war crimes right there.
In this instance, recent polling indicates heavy Russian public support for the military operation in Ukraine. Now, if they really support it is another question.
If you lived a little bit closer to the Russian border you would know how Russia as a nation really is.
I'm sure this was the case in previous wars by other nations, that still does not justify any violence or discrimination against them. Populations are easily manipulated and don't have power in decisions made for wars.
Again, would you justify Hamas bombing Israel given the perception Palestinians are given about Israeli civilians? This type of thinking is very dangerous. Civilians should never be targeted in my opinion because you'll end up hurting a lot of innocent people, this will only create more anger amongst those that might not even have had aggressive thoughts before.
A lesson from recent history is how Germans reacted after World War 1, they were humiliated politically and economically as well and it only created more hatred that ultimately lead to World War 2.
Disgusting. There needs to be a serious reckoning after this. At the very least, Russia needs to be sanctioned into the ground until Putin is history.
I don't know enough about Isreal/Palestine conflict so I am not going to justify or not justify anything.
Also I am not saying civilians should be targeted. All I am saying is that it's not just Putin's war, it's Russia's war. Feel free to disagree.
Not sure why my posts and those of others have been moved here. @golden_blunder opening post suggests that this is a thread for a wider and historical discussion of war crimes, whereas all the Bucha stuff is the latest development in the Russo-Ukrainian war. The Bucha stuff should be discussed there as it is the main development now driving the next steps of the West to the war.
I think the idea is that the main thread is for updates but that war crimes being documented also need a place for people to discuss them. It's to try and stop the main thread being derailed without shutting down people documenting war crimes as they're reported. It's not a perfect scenario but discussion of current war crimes can definitely spill into past war crimes and general points on the topic. (yesterday as an example).
Also, for anyone interested, HRW have another summary up: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas
Violence and "discrimination" (nebulous concept) are two very different things, not sure why they are lumped here.
"Following its defeat in World War II, Germany was stripped of its gains, and beyond that, more than a quarter of its old pre-war territory was annexed to Poland and the Soviet Union. Their German populations were expelled to the West. Some 9 million Germans were POWs, many of whom were kept as forced laborers for several years to provide restitution to the countries Germany had devastated in the war, and some industrial equipment was removed as reparations. Germany was divided during the Cold War between the Western Allies led by the United States and the Soviet Union in the East, with the two regions not being reunited until 1990."
Not exactly a walk in the park. Somehow WW3 didn't happen.
If we're going to do historical analogy, Russia is currently WW2 germany, not WW1 germany. The political and economic humilliation already happened, back in the 90s. Do we really want to extend the lesson and do what we did in WW2?
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My posts were updates though and not circle-jerking discussion that was derailing the thread. Bit of an odd editorial decision to move the majority of updates and reaction to the Bucha to another thread, neutrally titled “War Crimes”, where many will never bother to enter.
They are bystanders in the sense they have no influence on events, whether they are cheering or not is irrelevant right now. Some are brainwashed by propaganda, just as British and American civilians are whenever Britain or US invades a foreign land. Many others are too scared to speak out. Either way they aren't to blame for an immoral and illegal war their government is undertaking, nor are they to blame for living in a fascist dictatorship. I'm just very wary of any kind of xenophobia, and it saddens/worries me that otherwise extremely PC people around me are taking about Russian people. There's an old gimp at my work who at least once a day mutters "never trust a Russian" whenever the war is discussed, and occasionally expands to rambling about his Russian ex wife. One of my best friends is the most woke, anti fascist, pro PC person I've encountered and even he is saying things that are offensive without realising the irony (he would usually rebuke me for any kind of joke or comment that could cause offense). The double standards irks me. People are people at the end of the day, soldiers are soldiers, people will be influenced by the news they consume, soldiers will do barbaric stuff in war, regardless of nationality.
I agree on Russia needing a change, but its virtually impossible to overthrow a dictatorial system that has total power. Any change will be slow and gradual. No external source can intervene, the risk of global, nuclear conflict ensures that conversation will never even occur. Drastic civil revolutions aren't possible in the way they were 100+ years ago, because governments have modern weaponry that a crowd of civilians can not overwhelm. I think the only way change is possible is the fact that we have the internet which provides shared information and interaction with the rest of the world, and allows Russian individuals to consume media that hasn't been scripted by the government. This could help enable a slow, steady change towards a more progressive thinking which could lead to gradual political change. But for this to happen I'd like to see a change in the general tone towards Russian civilians. Imagine a Russian teenager, who is conflicted because they have some pride and affiliation with their country but is beginning to be sceptical of the government and media, and they go online seeking Western perspectives, and there's a barrage of anti-Russian sentiment, Russians being called barbaric, news article that act as though major Western powers have never committed war crimes and Russia and Russians are the absolute worst country ever. That just plays into the Russian government's hands - they can say look at the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the west, they hate us, they lie about us, they insult us. It will only serve to create a polemic divide, and influence civilians to the side of the Russian government. I think we should treat/speak about Russian people with empathy, warmth and sympathy - its the only antidote to brainwashing. You can't scream at a cult member that they've been brainwashed, they will reject the idea outright, you need to be patient, open, engaging, understanding and enable them to realise for themselves. This may seem fairly pointless to post on a United forum, but I do think some of the language and discourse on sites like twitter, even BBC, can en masse have a significant influence over time. Spread love not hate, its everybody's duty.
Call me crazy, but something tells me that the town wasn’t actually Denazified until the Russians were forced to retreat.
Bastards
Those kind of revolutions happen when you have broad class support. The people who fire the weapons (the police and military) typically need to move away from the ruling class, like in 1917 when the Czarist Russian troops defected from the front en masse and laid the groundwork for Lenin's arrival by virtue of the German security forces. All signs are that Putin has complete control over the military/police apparatuses and so a massive revolt will be some time away.
The real economy will be the key factor. Sanctions are aimed at punishing the people of Russia so that they, eventually, elect to punish their ruling class. Everyone knows sanctions are not that impressive in terms of direct results, but that will have been some of the motivation behind it.
So we've now got three threads with elements of discussion about the Ukraine war 
All you're doing is killing discussion when you seperate each thread out as such.
All you're doing is killing discussion when you seperate each thread out as such.
Can't help but agree. Newly discovered war crimes are updates in itself and should be in the Russia invasion thread. But that's just my opinion man.So we've now got three threads with elements of discussion about the Ukraine war
All you're doing is killing discussion when you seperate each thread out as such.
Now evidence of a torture HQ in Bucha with mass executions in a room in the back.
Also a dog shelter where every single animal was massacred.
Also a dog shelter where every single animal was massacred.
Reuters reports that Ukrainian prosecutors investigating possible war crimes by Russia have found 410 bodies in towns near Kyiv.
Prosecutor General Iryna Venedyktova said that 140 of them had been examined via a televised appearance on Sunday.
Russia has denied allegations that its forces killed civilians in the town of Bucha near Kyiv.
Prosecutor General Iryna Venedyktova said that 140 of them had been examined via a televised appearance on Sunday.
Russia has denied allegations that its forces killed civilians in the town of Bucha near Kyiv.
fecking cnuts
You're right its not just the weaponry but the control over those handling the weaponry. However I don't see any way in which a domestic police force or military could turn against the government in a developed country in the 21st century, especially not Russia. Those entities are so intertwined and connected with governments now, they are basically one and the same. I suppose a Caeser-esque assassination is the most hopeful option if a group of people in immediate positions of power can all agree. I'm not hopeful for a couple reasons. Firstly, I imagine even for a person in power, if they even wanted to overthrow Putin, they would be risking their life by even hinting at such a thing to one of their peers. And secondly, even if it did happen, I wouldn't be hopeful that the next leader would be any better. They'd have come through the same system to reach the position they're in, the same development, same formative experiences. Its not like there's a group of powerful, progressive liberals who are in charge of the Russian military, security and intelligence, just waiting to take over. Widespread class support was possible in the early 1900s, as there wasn't the means for systematic suppression of the rising Marxist ideology. Its not possible now. You can't have hundreds of gatherings and meetings in Russia to discuss overthrowing the regime and promoting an alternative, in order to build a growing class support. It's simply not possible.
On the second bit, I hope it can have some influence. I rather suspect it will just be used as further propaganda, that they're suffering because the evil West is against Russia. And as above, I don't think disgruntled citizens have the power to organise and push back against their government as they did 100 years ago, or even as they would in a democratic country. I just think alot of people are too optimistic about things. The political situation in Russia is more comparable to North Korea than it is to any Western nation, the rules and expectations that apply to Western nations don't apply to Russia in the same way. It's not the Russian people just aren't doing enough, it's not like they are naively being passive, they just dont have any power to change things.
Makes my blood boil…
With discoveries like this, I simply cannot imagine now that Ukraine will agree to give up any territory in a peace negotiation. They now know what’s going to happen to their people in that territory if they do.
I was wondering the same thing. With these discoveries, how does this affect Ukrainian thinking?
It's been often said in recent weeks that Russia might want to split Ukraine in a western and eastern half (beyond Donbas). But that would likely mean more atrocities in the eastern half.
I think we're going to see a large scale ethnic cleansing of whatever territory in the east Russians can control. Ukrainian speakers forcibly relocated, replacement Russians brought in. Might already be happening. Otherwise Russians are just going to end up like Americans in Afghanistan - huge resistance, barracks blown up, random attacks etc. Can't see them being able to cope with that for too long, especially under the weight of a broken economy.
Agreed - don’t understand the logic myself. Why do we need a separate thread to discuss war crimes in the Russian Ukraine war and not in the thread that discusses the Russian Ukraine war?So we've now got three threads with elements of discussion about the Ukraine war
All you're doing is killing discussion when you seperate each thread out as such.
I’ve seen videos of human corpses, but you couldn’t pay me any amount of money to open that spoiler.
People shouldn’t be surprised at how depraved the Russian army can be given their conduct in Syria.
Just keep posting in the other thread, it probably won't get moved again. At the moment the current last page talks about NATO intervention, hypothetical Russian regime changes, speculation about Russian support of the war, Serbian basketball players, future Serbian EU membership and Russians or Germans with Russian origin living in Germany.
It's not a thread primarily for war updates, creating this one was probably a spur of the moment thing.
It's not a thread primarily for war updates, creating this one was probably a spur of the moment thing.
Yes it will