I didn't think I'd need to to do a full presentation on my views about international politics everytime I post, sorry, this was just about Ukraine and was in no way a deflection of anything. I don't see how this whataboutism is helpful, there's obviously huge issues about Russia and its governement. Pointing issue with part of the ukrainian military and what could happen after the war isn't an endorsement of Russia's ridiculous "denazification" mission, it's an endorsement of facts.
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
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I didn't think I'd need to to do a full presentation on my views about international politics everytime I post, sorry, this was just about Ukraine and was in no way a deflection of anything. I don't see how this whataboutism is helpful, there's obviously huge issues about Russia and its governement. Pointing issue with part of the ukrainian military and what could happen after the war isn't an endorsement of Russia's ridiculous "denazification" mission, it's an endorsement of facts.
I don’t get you, Ukraine doesn’t have far-right current any larger than in other countries, why this constant need to point this out then? They have to deal with it in the same way as any other nation as we don’t want that in Europe or anywhere in the world for that matter but it’s strange to see such a small minority to get such an attention. I can only conclude that Russian propaganda have made a very good job of it. You likely gonna get a higher concentration of these far right extremists during some football games across Europe than in the Azov.
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Your constant whataboutism and comments about posters here being brainwashed by by russian propaganda are a bit tiring.
Why more attention?
1) this is a thread about the ukrainian invasion
2) Azov is fighting a critical battle in Dombass and their name is all over the news
3) The ukrainian government praise them pretty often
4) It's letigimate to wonder what will happen if russia withdraw from Dombass
I don't know why but your brain weirdly process any criticism about part of the ukrainian army as an endorsement of the russian invasion. It's not, so no, you can't "only conclude". I personnally didn't even mention their neonazi members in the 1st place, only the fact that the conflict in Dombass caused thousands of death, either among ciivlians or in both armies and that it will need adressing even if russia withraws its troops.
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I just think it’s a high ground to criticize Ukraine for incredibly small minority of right-wing group when Le Pen collects 40+% of votes in a presidential election. What point does it serve?
The only "need" to go on about it is because of how visceral people like you react. Like your claim that the government dealt with the elements in Azov so it's no longer an issue, a stance that is extremely controversial and convenient. As if there's no connection between the Azov battalion and the wider Azov movement, or National Corps. As if they don't still advertise targeting the far right, as if there's no overlap socially or politically.
In the context of this war it's such a minor issue, and if you weren't screaming Russian propaganda this conversation would have been over yesterday. You're the one keeping it alive, I'd have no reason to post about it if it wasn't for you. It's not like it's important right now in the grand scheme of things. It's a topic Ukraine hopefully deals with after the war, though no need to according to some so we'll see.
@Oly Francis @NotThatSoph Apologies for overreacting here, it’s just tiring to still see arguments that somehow try placing any kind of blame here on Ukrainian side beginning from 2014. No deaths or Azovs happen if Russia doesn’t invade the Ukraine in 2014. That’s the bottom line.
So what? Once you've said that (which is probably true), you've said absolutely nothing relevant to this conversation. The fact that the separatist movement was fueled by russia after the fall of Ianoukovitch doesn't change the fact that the issue is still goig to be there even if russia removes its army and that the ukrainian governement will have to find a way to deal with it.
Which issue? It will continue to live freely as before? Or you think Azov is going to go on a rampage? If not for Russia no armed criminals take control of the region, so if you remove Russia from equation there won’t be any on-going armed conflict.
No, but even without "azov going on a rampage", the conflct killed thousands of civilians since 2014. You do realize that you're not going to "remove russia from equation" by snapping your fingers right? The border will still be there, unless there's a new government in Russia that decides to stop everything, nothing will prevent them from restarting their independist sponsorship.
That’s why Ukraine’s new war target is to liberate all territories from occupation, including pre-2022. It doesn’t want another frozen war.
Mitch McConnell visits Kyiv with delegation of Republican US senators:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nnell-visits-kyiv-ukraine-republican-senators
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nnell-visits-kyiv-ukraine-republican-senators
Kinell. Will you two take that nazi/azov
talk to another thread, or preferably another forum?
talk to another thread, or preferably another forum?
My understanding is that what happened since 2014 was in massive part possible, because Ukrainian army was in a completely derelict state. They had to take every help they were offered and even then Russia didn't have to allocate massive resources (especially in current context) to regularly gain ground.
I don't really see how those tactics would result in anything but a meat grinder for Russia now.
And that's obviously ignoring that sentiments in Ukraine are completely different to the ones that were there in 2014 and international community will probably be less lenient with accepting Russian bullshit as excuses. I'm not sure if restarting is a viable option for Russia at all.
This.
The Russians could win a few redemption points if they found a way to take that feckin lizard out.
This was funny.
Haven't the French already come out and said that was never suggested to the Ukrainians?
Also, 2014 insurgencies were followed by mass defections of russian backers in Ukrainian armed forces. IIRC, their Black sea admiral defected and most of their troops stationed in Crimea, which made russian Crimea tactic possible. Likely, ukrainians made steps to make sure this does not happen again.
I vote for Berlin!
The reports i've read in France are actually unclear. It said that Macron told Zelinisky that they needed to find diplomatic solutions so Russia doesn't feelt humiliated. Maybe those reports were incomplete but I didn't read anything mentionning the fact that he suggested for Ukraine to give up part of its territory.
The Elysée made a statement saying that Macron never discussed anything like that with Putin and that it was for Ukraine to decide the terms of this negociaiton, that's pretty much it.
Just as an aside, the portuguese neonazis I mentioned many pages ago, who went to ukraine to fight for them were sent back to portugal after arriving in ukraine, with the ukranian ambassador saying ukraine doesn't need people like them.
Holy Flaps! What was that thing he fired?
It was a Javelin anti tank missile.
I have never read about the winning side of a war conceding something to a losing side just for the sake of avoiding humiliation at any moment in History. Just the possibility that the topic has been raised is silly in itself. If Russia ends up getting fecked, they get fecked. Something more than military hardware and soldiers will be lost.
I'm still waiting for a Battleship Potemkin mutiny moment.
No they don't have to deal with that at all
jesus christ.These men and woman are literally, right now, putting their lives on the line to fight against the very personification of Nazi facisim, and may well not survive it. If it was true what the Russian trolls like to ram down the world's throats every minute of every day, they would have switched sides long ago.
Even worse case we'd be talking about max 500 openly far right Ukraine 'Nazi' out of a pre-war soldier count of 200k+. It is a total and utter zero non-factor in the scheme of things, anything you hear otherwise is indeed Russian propaganda, it is low hanging fruit given Azov's roots.
Hahahahahha
The whole thing kicked off because of Russian involvement and they only have been able to hold any territory because of Russian forces. Next you will tell me Crimea wasn’t seized by Russian forces either.
Hahahahahha
The whole thing kicked off because of Russian involvement and they only have been able to hold any territory because of Russian forces. Next you will tell me Crimea wasn’t seized by Russian forces either.
That was not even remotely the point and I won't adress this topic here anymore since it seems people would rather keep this thread for current event news.
The whole point was parts of the Donbas have been occupied by and because of Russians since 2014. The entire military conflict there was provoked and driven by Russian nationals – and said Russian nationals have been entirely open about that.
What about the coup in 2014? And who financied it?