We're also, generally speaking, not a very patriotic bunch, for obvious reasons, so take no pride in our forces
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
- Thread starter Wednesday at Stoke
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Which is my point. One can't criticize the EU for not being able to defend itself, then say that an EU army is a dumb idea, then answer that the EU has NATO and when a EU member state is attacked by a non EU member state claim that NATO can't do anything because that non EU member is a NATO member.
Basically NATO doesn't defend the EU, it will maybe defend the EU if the aggressor isn't a NATO member.
It is not constitutional, it is an international treaty. It was done during the time of reunification.
Yes and even more important it is a problem of policy, decade long neglect of our armed forces and a societal problem.
It is not a problem of one political party. Germany felt safe with no enemies on its border and security guarantees by it allies.
It’s hard to track on Twitter because lots of people are so late with info and it’s unverified but big and reliable open source accounts seem unanimous that Ukraine lost it and then counter attacked and won it back at huge cost to Russia. Sounds like Russia trying to retake again.
This is indeed true but only have about half that number of soldiers. I personally would prefer a large European army instead of each country fending for themselves in that regard but given how divided the EU is on many topics I think this will remain a wish.
If this is correct then it's a great morale boost and reduction of direct pressure on Kiev for a while!
Yeah but given that most NATO states are EU states, they can't be decoupled, especially during times of crisis when all the resources are on the NATO side because of the US., which just by itself is more powerful than all other EU or NATO militaries combined.
Maybe. I don't know if 2% of GDP has always been a requirement or is rather recent.
Anyway, what could go wrong with a highly militant German state.
Can confirm all Ukrainian nationalists, male living in Czech Republic have been called up
There's an international treaty that limits it, but even if we updated it, it wouldn't change a dime. We're not even close to the current limit. We just don't want to finance it, we'd rather spend our money for other things, unfortunately. Completely ignoring national and international security.
Exactly. We lack patriotic attitude for many good reasons - but also for the worst ones. We could need a functioning army right now. And a high command that actually knows what its doing. And trust me, they really don't. Which is why I kind of hope that in the next 2 or 3 decades, we might be able to form a grandeuropean state which creates a new kind of own patriotism. A pragmatic, rational one, not a dramatic one. But one that knows and inspires when it's worth fighting for our way of living and our values and culture.
Ah ok, I didn't realise that's what you were responding to. If Germany, Italy and Spain met their commitments I don't think an EU army as such would be needed personally. But if that's what they wanted to do and it'd get them to spend more...
Concerns about arming Ukraine.
On my way home, safe. We heard one of the policemen saying on his radio that they were going to start the active phase of arrests (which was so weird, surely you’d have your own police code for that?) and managed to evade them. Usually there are thousands (if not tens if thousands) of policemen positioned all across the city center, which creates a rather dystopian city landscape but I’ve barely seen a couple of hundred tonight overall, which made things way easier. They still managed to beat one guy up during the detainment process & they had to sent him to ER (considering that he’s a well-known sociologist that works with different NPOs and openly criticizes Putin I’d imagine that it wasn’t simply a coincidence), but overall it was relatively peaceful.
I take your point but it is incongruous that Europe’s largest country still has no serious armed forces more than 80 years on.
I'm not convinced we'll have a US-EU war anytime for the foreseeable future. Besides, US being in NATO should not stop EU from building a respectable military themselves.
Fingers crossed, looks like a good chunk of the city is on fire. Ukranian Army making good progress there apparently, whether that is a good thing for your friend or not is hard to say with the heavy bombardments they may attract.
You want to keep a dialogue, Russia may decide they want a graceful exit at some point.
I don’t criticise the EU for not being able to defend itself. It’s nothing to do with the EU, which is not a defence or military organisation in any way. It’d be like criticising UEFA for not being able to repel an invasion.
I criticise the nations of Europe for not being able to defend themselves and not fulfilling their NATO obligations.
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Without sounding cynical, what use is this now? You'd expect the Russians to take Kiev soon. I don't envisage they'd be able to mobilise and train these men in time for them to have a tangible impact in the war effort. Unless they're bunkering down for a guerilla campaign.
Yeah but part of that is also that the US wouldn't have it any other way. If Germany tried to arm itself to US levels I wouldn't want to be alive to see what happens.
Incredible how a world so developed can be dragged backward so quickly by one maniac with power.
So many talk the talk but few can walk the walk. You're a good guy man stay safe.
well met.Wow.
This is what Putin is counting on and tried to invoke with his raving rants. Other nations shitting their pants that Putin will send the rockets if they get involved in this conflict.
The problem is if we end up doing nothing and leave Ukraine to the wolves, he will feel emboldened and try to do the same to the Baltic States in a couple of years. He will again test the waters, make up reasons why Estonia is a thread to Russia and is going to take smaller parts to test the water and escalate from there, just like he did with Ukraine.
Bang on which is the reason why a EU army should have been installed long ago
They armed the rebel factions during the Syria war, many of which who were in direct confrontation with Russian armed forces. Don't see how this would be any different. And going further back there was also the very overt support for the Mujahadeen in the Russian-Afghan war.
Doesnt have to be the US. What if Erdogan has one of his meltdowns? Second biggest NATO army. Good luck EU if they ever decide to go nuts. NATO then won't do shit against one of their own members
Not a war but all it takes is another Trump term and we won't have the US as a partner to defend the EU in case of further Russian aggression and our armies in the current state stand very little chance in a conflict with Russia I'm affraid.
Ok, I had enough today. Time for some heavy drinking to swallow everything. My heart breaks for the people of Ukraine.
Exactly but he’s got us by the balls because nuclear war seems very much within his wheelhouse right now, where as it’s not for…well anyone else