Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

frostbite said:
History is important, do you agree?

1. When Germany invades a country and this results in the death of over 10% of the population from starvation and execution, people will remember it for a long time. Don't you agree?

2. When Germany refuses to help a smaller country that asks for help, because "they have corruption" and gives morality lessons making their position even worse than it was before, while at the same time, Germany makes a shitload of money with Putin (the uncorrupted!)... people will remember it for a long time. Don't you agree?

And I am talking about Ukraine. Or about Greece.

3. When Germany is telling everyone that they are the supreme moral pacifists and that's the reason they don't spend money for the defense sector of the EU and they don't want to send tanks to Ukraine, but at the same time they make a lot of money from arms exports and they are the largest producer of tanks in Europe... people will question the German motives or call them hypocrites. Don't you agree?


Do the Germans really have to ask "why always me?"
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I won't get much into this because it's not the right thread, but since you're getting some stick, I thought why not.

The feelings in Portugal regarding Germany are very similar on the part of many people. Sure, portugal had (and still has) problems with corruption, but the troika, led by merkel, germany and the imf, imposed a brutal austerity on the country, the situation got much worse than it was before. And years later, the conclusion was that most of those austerity measures were a mistake, the imf admitted so, they were not necessary and just made things worse for millions of people already economically vulnerable. People who haven't recovered to this day and had their lives ruined forever. These people exist now, they're not notes in history books.

There are plenty of articles explaining how the austerity imposed in southern european countries was effectively a bailout of german banks. How the euro benefits germany far more than portugal for example. How it was the german government that advised the portuguese government to take some measures they later identified as causes to the request for help on our part. Many things that there's no reason for the average german to care about but that have a deep impact on the people who are on the wrong end of the stick.

Adding to this, the clear xenophobia in some german/dutch/northern european publications at the time (I remember well the magazine covers), implying portuguese only want to party and drink and not work because we are lazy, compared to the hard working northern europeans. This was just the first that come up on google, not even sure if it's german but there were many similar ones:

elsevier-weekblad_750.jpg


Probably the average german (or folks not in southern europe) doesn't understand the impact their decisions had in countries like portugal or greece and why that makes it so hard to believe germany actually cares for the common good and their decisions are viewed with suspicion. It's easy to discard this as some basic anti-german historical feeling, when in fact, it's about very recent stuff from which many folks are still suffering.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on this
 
T
maniak said:
I won't get much into this because it's not the right thread, but since you're getting some stick, I thought why not.

The feelings in Portugal regarding Germany are very similar on the part of many people. Sure, portugal had (and still has) problems with corruption, but the troika, led by merkel, germany and the imf, imposed a brutal austerity on the country, the situation got much worse than it was before. And years later, the conclusion was that most of those austerity measures were a mistake, the imf admitted so, they were not necessary and just made things worse for millions of people already economically vulnerable. People who haven't recovered to this day and had their lives ruined forever. These people exist now, they're not notes in history books.

There are plenty of articles explaining how the austerity imposed in southern european countries was effectively a bailout of german banks. How the euro benefits germany far more than portugal for example. How it was the german government that advised the portuguese government to take some measures they later identified as causes to the request for help on our part. Many things that there's no reason for the average german to care about but that have a deep impact on the people who are on the wrong end of the stick.

Adding to this, the clear xenophobia in some german/dutch/northern european publications at the time (I remember well the magazine covers), implying portuguese only want to party and drink and not work because we are lazy, compared to the hard working northern europeans. This was just the first that come up on google, not even sure if it's german but there were many similar ones:

elsevier-weekblad_750.jpg


Probably the average german (or folks not in southern europe) doesn't understand the impact their decisions had in countries like portugal or greece and why that makes it so hard to believe germany actually cares for the common good and their decisions are viewed with suspicion. It's easy to discard this as some basic anti-german historical feeling, when in fact, it's about very recent stuff from which many folks are still suffering.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on this
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That magazine is Dutch, but you are right that the issue was seen similar in Germany. And I guess no German has an issue if you see those measures taken at the time as a mistake (even in Germany the opinion was quite split if that was the right or wrong thing to do at the time and history has taught us it was likely wrong).

But your understandable skepticism towards Germany is far different than what for example the PiS is doing everytime they need to win an election, and this kind of anti-German sentiments was what I wanted to refer to.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Not to disrespect Italy, but everyone already knew that their military is in a very poor state. However, I agree with you about France deserving more stick because they are disgracefully bad in the amount of military aid sent, especially when their military industrial complex currently has a hard time finding clients compared to other big weapons sellers.
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Italy’s military is not great but it is better than Poland’s, Latvia’s or Estonia’s. So it is disgraceful from them.
 
stefan92 said:
Terrible PR due to the reluctance of our chancellor. So at least part of that is self-inflicted and well deserved.

But a lotof it is what is always happening. Anti-German sentiments are the go-to option for some countries/parties in some countries whenever something in Europe goes wrong. As Germans we are used to (at least our government) being "literally Hitler" because it does (or doesn't) do something. Especially the Polish PiS is remarkable in that regard, but of course there are also people like our resident Greek economy victim @frostbite

0ef3fcc53904ffdb.jpg
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You're also seen as the de facto leader of Europe, so the other countries expect you set an example. Never mind events of the distant past, everybody remembers Schroder getting into bed with Russia and nobody really liked Merkel either. From the Italian persepctive Europe has always seen Germany as a bit aloof and not to be totally trusted.

For some reason it's accepted that France will be arrogant and self serving, and Italy will mumble along shrugging its shoulders and blaming somebody else.
 
Revan said:
Kind of crazy how much stick Germany gets compared to France and Italy, that are barely mentioned. France in particular has an army stronger than Germany, and has given feck all to Ukraine, but no one criticizes them.
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Aren't the French very quiet on what they're providing Ukraine? I could be wrong but I recall reading that.
 
VorZakone said:
Aren't the French very quiet on what they're providing Ukraine? I could be wrong but I recall reading that.
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I suspect that when eventually some kind of ceasefire-peace deal happens, Macron will want to be front right and centre selling himself as an honest broker. He's so into himself.

But like @RedDevilQuebecois says above, this is a missed opportunity for their military industrial complex to show the quality of their wares and expand their markets. They simply don't have that many customers outside France anymore for their top gear. I remember the days when half the world's air forces flew Mirage's
 
maniak said:
I won't get much into this because it's not the right thread, but since you're getting some stick, I thought why not.

The feelings in Portugal regarding Germany are very similar on the part of many people. Sure, portugal had (and still has) problems with corruption, but the troika, led by merkel, germany and the imf, imposed a brutal austerity on the country, the situation got much worse than it was before. And years later, the conclusion was that most of those austerity measures were a mistake, the imf admitted so, they were not necessary and just made things worse for millions of people already economically vulnerable. People who haven't recovered to this day and had their lives ruined forever. These people exist now, they're not notes in history books.

There are plenty of articles explaining how the austerity imposed in southern european countries was effectively a bailout of german banks. How the euro benefits germany far more than portugal for example. How it was the german government that advised the portuguese government to take some measures they later identified as causes to the request for help on our part. Many things that there's no reason for the average german to care about but that have a deep impact on the people who are on the wrong end of the stick.

Adding to this, the clear xenophobia in some german/dutch/northern european publications at the time (I remember well the magazine covers), implying portuguese only want to party and drink and not work because we are lazy, compared to the hard working northern europeans. This was just the first that come up on google, not even sure if it's german but there were many similar ones:

elsevier-weekblad_750.jpg


Probably the average german (or folks not in southern europe) doesn't understand the impact their decisions had in countries like portugal or greece and why that makes it so hard to believe germany actually cares for the common good and their decisions are viewed with suspicion. It's easy to discard this as some basic anti-german historical feeling, when in fact, it's about very recent stuff from which many folks are still suffering.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on this
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Although this is Dutch, the German yellow press had similar covers and head lines, yes. But yellow press covers aren't representive of the public opinion. The austerity was rejected by many in the country and especially the stereotypes used by magazines such as this faced huge criticism. Germany's currently strongest right wing party, the AfD, used these stereotypes to gain their first supporters (and later on turned on refugees and adapted more sinister conspiracy theories) but they made themselves unvotable for the majority of Germans by doing so.
 
More Wagner being sent to their deaths, crawling across open fields to meet the expected outcome. Airburst shells being shown here, which I don't think I've seen caught on film before, looks nasty.

 
Must be great to run over a field that is already densely populated by impact holes :nervous:
 
The Russians seem to open up three more local offensives on Vuhledar, Opytne and Avdiivka.
 
demetre said:
Speaker of AF said 59 actually. I don't know where 55 or 70 comes from, since everyone actually quote his words.
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"Russia launched 70 missiles at Ukraine on Thursday, 47 of which were intercepted, the Ukrainian Armed Forces said in its daily operational update on Facebook.

Moscow's forces also carried out 44 airstrikes, including 18 using Iranian-made Shahed-136 drones. All self-detonating drones were shot down, the Ukrainian Armed Forces said." - CNN
 
The United said:
"Russia launched 70 missiles at Ukraine on Thursday, 47 of which were intercepted, the Ukrainian Armed Forces said in its daily operational update on Facebook.

Moscow's forces also carried out 44 airstrikes, including 18 using Iranian-made Shahed-136 drones. All self-detonating drones were shot down, the Ukrainian Armed Forces said." - CNN
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You don't need to quote CNN, I have watched his update myself and he said 59.
 
demetre said:
You don't need to quote CNN, I have watched his update myself and he said 59.
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Because you asked where people got it from. It said there that it was from UAF's facebook.

That was the point. Maybe you could go there and see it to clear it up as I have no idea how to get there myself.
 
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Rajma said:
It includes Iranian drones, which were all shot down.
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Even so, the intercepted figure should go up. It won't be stopped at 47.

The article also stated that as airstrikes and all shot down. If 23 missiles went through, the damages would be pretty bad and 11 people already died from those.
 
The United said:
Because you asked where people got it from. It said there that it was from UAF's facebook.

That was the point. Maybe you could go there and see it to clear it up as I have no idea how to get there myself.
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Yeah I've seen CNN and UAF's facebook and it does say 70. It's just that both of them are quoting the speaker who said 59 in that address, so it's weird to me where 70 came from.
Around 80% - 85% of AA success rate is about average for latest missile attacks and I haven't heard about a lot of objects being destroyed, so I think there's some mistake there in reporting.
 
demetre said:
Yeah I've seen CNN and UAF's facebook and it does say 70. It's just that both of them are quoting the speaker who said 59 in that address, so it's weird to me where 70 came from.
Around 80% - 85% of AA success rate is about average for latest missile attacks and I haven't heard about a lot of objects being destroyed, so I think there's some mistake there in reporting.
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Just looks like some reporters are counting the drones as missiles, but then not counting them in the shot down total. Even different CNN reporters saying different things.
 
The United said:
Even so, the intercepted figure should go up. It won't be stopped at 47.

The article also stated that as airstrikes and all shot down. If 23 missiles went through, the damages would be pretty bad and 11 people already died from those.
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The article has it all messed up, 47 out of 55 missiles, the rest of it were the drones that were gunned down. 8 missiles have gone through AD out of which 2 were hypersonic (they’re defenseless against these).
 
demetre said:
Yeah I've seen CNN and UAF's facebook and it does say 70. It's just that both of them are quoting the speaker who said 59 in that address, so it's weird to me where 70 came from.
Around 80% - 85% of AA success rate is about average for latest missile attacks and I haven't heard about a lot of objects being destroyed, so I think there's some mistake there in reporting.
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Yup, it also put that "substantial damage to Ukraine's power grid" on their headline.

Isn't the number people of dead getting higher with these attacks recently? Or I may fail to recall the number correctly in the earlier attacks after once UA got a lot of AA systems.
 
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The United said:
Yup, it also put that "substantial damage to Ukraine's power grid" on their headline.

Isn't the number people dead getting higher with these attacks recently? Or I may fail to recall the number correctly in the earlier attacks after once UA got a lot of AA systems.
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I think any damage to our power grid is substantial at this point. But all regions went back to scheduled power distribution today, so I guess it wasn't THAT bad.

There were a lot of dead civilians when they hit a residential building in Dnipro two weeks ago. Maybe not to that extent, but they hit regular houses almost every time there's a massive missile attack.
 
demetre said:
I think any damage to our power grid is substantial at this point. But all regions went back to scheduled power distribution today, so I guess it wasn't THAT bad.

There were a lot of dead civilians when they hit a residential building in Dnipro two weeks ago. Maybe not to that extent, but they hit regular houses almost every time there's a massive missile attack.
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I see. My concern was that if they were deliberately (more so than usual) targeting stuff that were a lot closer to the civilians now to maximize any potential of hitting civilians by accident or by AA system itself.
 
The United said:
I see. My concern was that if they were deliberately (more so than usual) targeting stuff that were a lot closer to the civilians now to maximize any potential of hitting civilians by accident or by AA system itself.
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I don't think they really care if it's close to civilians or not...
 
the hea said:
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That's funny. I recently went back to Burma, whose coup leaders are trying to position themselves, with Putin nowadays. Their people talked to me about how democracy failed (I don't think they understood what they were saying with their own examples, anyway). I asked, "Well, yeah, the system was far from perfect, but would you like to go to Russia or even North Korea then?"

They all went silent.
 
Some important additions: Germany will not only deliver 14 Leopard 2, but alongside them also 2 Bergepanzer 3 Büffel, an armoured recovery vehicle based on the Leopard 2 and able to deal with the heavy western tanks that are going to be delivered. Without such devices Ukraine would be in big trouble if one of those tanks has a mechanical failure or gets stuck for other reasons. (Germany has delivered 15 units of the older Bergepanzer 2, but that's really on its limits if it has to deal with a Leopard 2, it was based and designed for the much lighter Leopard 1). I still feel like Ukraine has a gap regarding heavy ARVs and I hope that they will get more alongside the tank deliveries of other countries to improve their effectiveness in battle.

And also Germany will provide 90 HX81 tank transport trucks (the first units of that already arrived in Ukraine this week). Also important for logistics now, as Leopard, Challenger and Abrams (and Leclerk, should it be provided) are much heavier than the so far used T-series tanks. Ukraine needs more capacity for these heavy units (the only system in that weight region they got so far is the PzH 2000)
 


Both sides are probably convinced that they are weakening the other's combat capability for a wasteland regardless of the political significant of this place. I hope the UA side is right about that.
 
Is this the first time that North Korea has said this openly since the invasion?

 
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