Russell Brand - Moving Right

MajorTom said:
:lol:

Sorry for responding with a way you could get information about the socialistic aspects about those countries, next time I shall stop with my plans and reply to you with haste about them. You are making a tit out of yourself by claiming I threw my toys out of the pram by going for something to eat and doing some weights. Mental.

Where did I say they were socialist countries? China isn't a socialist country but that didn't stop you from saying it is to fit your argument. Now, lets see what you have done with the time I have been gone to find out about those aspects. So enlighten me - what have you read? I bet it is nothing because you don't really want to know. A more natural recap would be me championing socialism, which has never been tried to any true nature of the philosophy and you championing capitalism. A system that with every single note that comes in circulation has debt on it. How the hell can any sane man be an advocate of that?

My country is no better but let's use yours as it is considered the wealthiest nation on earth. Only once since 1776, the formation of America, has your country been in a position of credit in 1836. That's right, one year out of the entire history has your country been in profit. Quite the feat. What a system, what a bastion to the glorification of capitalism. Every single note, or piece of fractional banking owes 105% on that currency created. Recipe for success right there. One of your Presidents was going to nationalise the FED, still would have had a similar situation but one that would've been under a fractionally small amount of more control. What happens to him - gets assassinated.
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If you aren't willing to debate ideas then don't come into the current events forum. You accused me of misrepresenting your words so I gave you the chance to state your position clearly. You named two countries and when asked to elaborate threw a fit and said go Google it. I'm at work, I don't have the time or interest I'm trying to find out what point you might be making only to come back and be accused of misrepresenting you again. Either make your case or stop wasting space and time.

It's obvious that you're not educated on economics but if you'd bothered to examine your data you would have to note the problems with predicting an imminent apocalypse because OMG DEBT and then pointing out that the richest country in the world has been in debt for almost its entire history. Maybe debt doesnt equal doom after all?

Thanks for bringing up 1836, because it allows me to state that the longest depression in the history of the United States happened in... Wait for it....1837. Didn't mention that in Ayn Weekly did they?
 
Why haven't you answered a single question I have posed? I'm not the one debating when I'm answering your questions yet you are by ignoring mine and posing more. I expect you to answer this one as it possibly leads to another insult.

It is you who fails to understand economics, if you believe debt based currency is thriving and will continue to do so.
 
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Tell me what you think about the socialistic procedures of the two countries I mentioned, also what do you feel about the socialistic NHS? How do debt based currencies/economies thrive? Why is no single country not in debt? If capitalism is so great then you would imagine at least one would be. Try to avoid offsetting it with GDP as it still equates to a negative number by anyone's interpretation of mathematics. One more question and one that is more worthy as we can go back and forth all day on this it seems. Why is it that in most of your replies to me you have used insulting words? That normally happens when people can't think of anything better to say, doesn't it. It is also one that negates debate so you might want to avoid using insults if you are a fan of such communications.
 
MajorTom said:
Tell me what you think about the socialistic procedures of the two countries I mentioned, also what do you feel about the socialistic NHS? How do debt based currencies/economies thrive? Why is no single country not in debt? If capitalism is so great then you would imagine at least one would be. Try to avoid offsetting it with GDP as it still equates to a negative number by anyone's interpretation of mathematics. One more question and one that is more worthy as we can go back and forth all day on this it seems. Why is it that in most of your replies to me you have used insulting words? That normally happens when people can't think of anything better to say, doesn't it. It is also one that negates debate so you might want to avoid using insults if you are a fan of such communications.
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They don't all need to be debt free. The U.S.'s national debt is often made fun of but it hasn't slowed it down one bit.
 
I'm not an economist so I couldn't give you a good answer off the top of my head. I can approach it from a logical perspective.

Why, if debt is the harbinger of apocalypse you say it is, has the United States continued to dominate despite having 226/227 years in debt? How can you explain that? Occams razor would suggest that perhaps debt is not the best indicator for economic health.

I don't know enough about the nhs to give a good answer there either and you'll have to be more specific than "socialist procedures" for me to comment on that. Perhaps you'll notice a theme here. If I don't know something I try not to make shit up to appear as though I do. On that note, I'd like to know this...

When you pointed to 1836 as the lone positive year, did you know about the crisis and depression in 1837?

If yes, doesn't the ensuing depression suggest being debt free wasn't the panacea you think it was?

If no, doesn't a lack of knowledge of something so fundamental suggest you ought to learn more about the subject?
 
MajorTom said:
Okay then, I'll ask you. Name one?
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I just told you it doesn't matter. Naming one, none, or 500 is irrelevant to whether or not capitalism is a good or bad thing. You need to look at the wealth that's been generated over the past 50 years to get a decent assessment of whether or not its been successful.
 
It doesn't matter? If you are using that equation it still has the same effect which is a negative number. What is the point. I'll tell you considering no-one knows. They're five countries: British Virgin Islands, Brunei, Liechtenstein, Macao and Palou (not all countries but have their own laws). Strong countries/areas full of all sorts of industry (no offence to anyone that lives there as it is a phenomenal achievement). What do these countries have in common?
 
MajorTom said:
It doesn't matter? If you are using that equation it still has the same effect which is a negative number. What is the point. I'll tell you considering no-one knows. They're five countries: British Virgin Islands, Brunei, Liechtenstein, Macao and Palou (not all countries but have their own laws). Strong countries/areas full of all sorts of industry (no offence to anyone that lives there as it is a phenomenal achievement). What do these countries have in common?
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How are the five countries you listed in any way relevant to your previous argument ?
 
Eboue said:
Their average citizen has taken more economics courses than you?
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You do realise that your stupidity can't be projected on anyone who has a fully developed mind regardless of how many times you bang the drum? It might work for you often as people get sick of the constant barrage of drivel. Once again didn't answer any of my questions and once again came in with a shitty remark. You'd be just dandy in some form of parliament.
 
MajorTom said:
You do realise that your stupidity can't be projected on anyone who has a fully developed mind regardless of how many times you bang the drum? It might work for you often as people get sick of the constant barrage of drivel. Once again didn't answer any of my questions and once again came in with a shitty remark. You'd be just dandy in some form of parliament.
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Well you did say a fully developed mind.
 
MajorTom said:
You do realise that your stupidity can't be projected on anyone who has a fully developed mind regardless of how many times you bang the drum? It might work for you often as people get sick of the constant barrage of drivel. Once again didn't answer any of my questions and once again came in with a shitty remark. You'd be just dandy in some form of parliament.
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What are you talking about? I said I didn't have enough knowledge to make informed comments and so I abstained. Do you want me to just make stuff up?

Even if we accept all of your statements as self evident facts you still don't have a coherent argument. You flop all over the place and whenever a point of yours is countered to move on to something else and pretend it didn't happen. It's bizarre.
 
MajorTom said:
Ah, another insult. Such fine minds, fine people. It fits hand in hand with your religious capitalism as you try to dominate.
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Have a look at your own post talking about Eboue's stupidity. Now lets get back on topic.
 
Eboue said:
What are you talking about? I said I didn't have enough knowledge to make informed comments and so I abstained. Do you want me to just make stuff up?

Even if we accept all of your statements as self evident facts you still don't have a coherent argument. You flop all over the place and whenever a point of yours is countered to move on to something else and pretend it didn't happen. It's bizarre.
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I missed you reply as I got an alert from Raoul then when I clicked on the thread it went from last read. It isn't incoherent at all and I've responded to everything that you have questioned, apart from the reply I missed. Of course everything I say isn't fact as I'm talking about ideology, which is never factual and based on ones preference. Everything I've said about money is factual.
 
You're delusional. I would love it if socialism worked because it appeals to my bleeding heart liberal tendencies. I find free markets proponents on the right to be callous and obnoxious and materialism distasteful. You could even look at my posts on credit cards to know how I feel about debt in general.

But data talks. Markets are efficient. More people than ever are better off than ever. Liberal democracy works. free markets free speech and fruit out of season...
 
Eboue said:
You're delusional. I would love it if socialism worked because it appeals to my bleeding heart liberal tendencies. I find free markets proponents on the right to be callous and obnoxious and materialism distasteful. You could even look at my posts on credit cards to know how I feel about debt in general.

But data talks. Markets are efficient. More people than ever are better off than ever. Liberal democracy works. free markets free speech and fruit out of season...
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Pretty much this.
 
MajorTom said:
I missed you reply as I got an alert from Raoul then when I clicked on the thread it went from last read. It isn't incoherent at all and I've responded to everything that you have questioned, apart from the reply I missed. Of course everything I say isn't fact as I'm talking about ideology, which is never factual and based on ones preference. Everything I've said about money is factual.
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Let's reboot and keep this simple then.

If debt is an existential threat to economies, why do countries with large debts still perform well in economic indices?

If being debt free is so important, why did the US experience its longest depression immediately following its only debt free year?

Why has the American national debt jumped so drastically while the country has recovered from the recession and the stock market hit an all time high?

Is Japan's recent downturn related to efforts to reduce spending /debt?
 
Eboue said:
Let's reboot and keep this simple then.

If debt is an existential threat to economies, why do countries with large debts still perform well in economic indices?

If being debt free is so important, why did the US experience its longest depression immediately following its only debt free year?

Why has the American national debt jumped so drastically while the country has recovered from the recession and the stock market hit an all time high?

Is Japan's recent downturn related to efforts to reduce spending /debt?
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Using the world's biggest economy as an example - US GDP has gone from $300b in 1950 to about $17trillion today. During that time its debt has gone from $257B to roughly $17 trillion. If debt were such an important variable, why didn't the US economy completely implode back into the dark ages ? Instead, its seen the most aggressive growth in its history. Same can probably be said of most EU countries over the same period.
 
MajorTom said:
Tell me what you think about the socialistic procedures of the two countries I mentioned, also what do you feel about the socialistic NHS? How do debt based currencies/economies thrive? Why is no single country not in debt? If capitalism is so great then you would imagine at least one would be. Try to avoid offsetting it with GDP as it still equates to a negative number by anyone's interpretation of mathematics. One more question and one that is more worthy as we can go back and forth all day on this it seems. Why is it that in most of your replies to me you have used insulting words? That normally happens when people can't think of anything better to say, doesn't it. It is also one that negates debate so you might want to avoid using insults if you are a fan of such communications.
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You are aware that virtually all governments tap the bond markets for working capital and to fund long-term projects, eg infrastructure. Yep some countries' debt to GDP ratio are seriously out of kilter, particularly Japan among the G7.
But these are long-term obligations, so the figure is misleading. Eg, i owe c£250k on my mortgage. Massive when viewed on a debt to income basis, but manageable given its 23 year outstanding term.

MajorTom said:
It doesn't matter? If you are using that equation it still has the same effect which is a negative number. What is the point. I'll tell you considering no-one knows. They're five countries: British Virgin Islands, Brunei, Liechtenstein, Macao and Palou (not all countries but have their own laws). Strong countries/areas full of all sorts of industry (no offence to anyone that lives there as it is a phenomenal achievement). What do these countries have in common?
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I take you are saying they are debt free? I don't know if Macau controls its own budget, but it obviously rakes it in from gaming. BVI is an offshore financial centre and Brunei a weird little kingdom. You cannot compare these tiny principalities and countries with the complex structure of say the US and its defence, welfare and health spending commitments.
 
Raoul said:
As for socialism - it seems to be on the wane over the past 20 years or so. Whereas capital markets seem increasingly influential in growing global wealth. The fact that the wealth is not reaching the developing world is a problem that needs to be tackled head on, not by dumping the entire system but by identifying ways to empower developing economies.
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Which is why the world becoming wealthier but that wealth is becoming increasingly concentrated in the very highest soci-economic stratas. For the majority of working people in the developed world this is going to be the first time when a generation is less well off than the one before. What we need to do is stop funding and discounting things like big business, private education and health (let market forces actually work) while increaseing real oversight and regulate the unfettered capitalism that have got us in the mess we are in. The government should be in the business of providing free health and education by taxing all fairly and not just the working poor.
 
Wibble said:
Which is why the world becoming wealthier but that wealth is becoming increasingly concentrated in the very highest soci-economic stratas. For the majority of working people in the developed world this is going to be the first time when a generation is less well off than the one before. What we need to do is stop funding and discounting things like big business, private education and health (let market forces actually work) while increaseing real oversight and regulate the unfettered capitalism that have got us in the mess we are in. The government should be in the business of providing free health and education by taxing all fairly and not just the working poor.
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Its particularly bad in the US. I'm sure you've heard of the Warren Buffett rule. There are roughly 10 million, millionaires in the US (apparently). Raising their tax bracket by a few percentage points and raising capital gains by 15% would generate a ridiculous amount of money that could be reinvested in the country. I'm sure that holds true for a number of other countries.
 
I think it is particularly bad in the US but it is happening in most developed nations.

What I find disturbing is that the mid level socio-economic groups are actually voting for this because they think it is good for them. How wrong are they?
 
Jippy said:
You are aware that virtually all governments tap the bond markets for working capital and to fund long-term projects, eg infrastructure. Yep some countries' debt to GDP ratio are seriously out of kilter, particularly Japan among the G7.
But these are long-term obligations, so the figure is misleading. Eg, i owe c£250k on my mortgage. Massive when viewed on a debt to income basis, but manageable given its 23 year outstanding term.
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I am aware of that. It isn't the same, you will earn x amount of money to pay of your mortgage, debt based currencies/economies can never pay their debt off (without drastic consequences).

Jippy said:
I take you are saying they are debt free? I don't know if Macau controls its own budget, but it obviously rakes it in from gaming. BVI is an offshore financial centre and Brunei a weird little kingdom. You cannot compare these tiny principalities and countries with the complex structure of say the US and its defence, welfare and health spending commitments.
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I was just pointing out that the only areas in profit are all little tax havens.

Here is a video to show just how ridiculous debt based currencies are and why America went into a massive depression after paying off their debt (it is still the same principal even though the FED wasn't around until 1913, debt based currencies all work the same despite the more complexities of current times) -

 
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Back to Brand... I did find this context quite interesting and basically spot on, a summation of his interview with Salon.

--His argument is a simple one: The system works, but for the rich. Both parties defend the economic interests of the elites. Politicians and the media distract and divide the rest of us, keeping people fearful but entertained. Voting is a charade that makes people feel they have a voice, but given the narrowness of the options and the rules of the game, that’s merely an illusion.--

That said, there are numerous policies and programs that the "elites" do enact and enforce that benefit the public as a whole.
 
Raoul said:
Its particularly bad in the US. I'm sure you've heard of the Warren Buffett rule. There are roughly 10 million, millionaires in the US (apparently). Raising their tax bracket by a few percentage points and raising capital gains by 15% would generate a ridiculous amount of money that could be reinvested in the country. I'm sure that holds true for a number of other countries.
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All for this. The Waltons wouldn't like to pay another 15% on their capital gains. They pulled in some $600m each from dividends in 2013, and only paid 15% tax on that.

What are your thoughts on Walmart receiving billions annually in tax breaks and subsidies? And this from a company that refuses to increase employee wages to a considerable level. But we all know the Waltons donate to various politicians, and these politicians vote for various policies that almost directly benefit the Waltons and Walmart.
 
Haven't read the entire thread so not sure if it's been mentioned but Brand is set appear on the last Question Time of 2014 this Thursday along with... Nigel Farage.
 
Eboue said:
You're delusional. I would love it if socialism worked because it appeals to my bleeding heart liberal tendencies. I find free markets proponents on the right to be callous and obnoxious and materialism distasteful. You could even look at my posts on credit cards to know how I feel about debt in general.

But data talks. Markets are efficient. More people than ever are better off than ever. Liberal democracy works. free markets free speech and fruit out of season...
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It doesn't really work either if you consider the environmental/sustainability angle we need about four planet Earths.
 
Amethyst said:
Haven't read the entire thread so not sure if it's been mentioned but Brand is set appear on the last Question Time of 2014 this Thursday along with... Nigel Farage.
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That will depend on whether the evil immigrants will allow poor Nigel Farage to arrive in time. I wonder whether he can come out with a final solution to that problem.
 
Regarding this debt thing, with every single country in debt. Must be trillions of £ of debt.
Can someone tell me where the money comes from?

genuine question btw - never did economics.......
 
The Purley King said:
Regarding this debt thing, with every single country in debt. Must be trillions of £ of debt.
Can someone tell me where the money comes from?

genuine question btw - never did economics.......
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To each other http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696 (it's a bit out of date now but illustrates the point well)

And to individuals/organizations who buy government bonds.
 
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