Rugby 2017 Discussion

unchanged_lineup said:
I hope this November match goes ahead, and with both teams in peak form, no excuses.
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I want to see a game between England and New Zealand this year but Clive Woodward's reservations about the game taking place as England's first Autumn international are valid IMO.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
I want to see a game between England and New Zealand this year but Clive Woodward's reservations about the game taking place as England's first Autumn international are valid IMO.
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Fair enough. I made that comment before I'd finished reading the three articles that have been posted here too. Very insulting comments by that RFU guy about dividing the gate receipts. Talk about blinkers on.

Talk about bigging up Ireland too :D I'm taking all of that with a huge pinch of salt.
 
Looks like Dublin nightlife got the better of Billy Vunipolas on Saturday night!

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Last year we had a general rugby union thread but it didn't get a great deal of posts. @unchanged_lineup how about making this like an all things rugby thread for 2017?
 
Leicester has appointed Matt O'Connor as head coach after parting with Aaron Mauger. It has been a season of change at Welford Road with the Director of Rugby and head coach both departing.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
Leicester has appointed Matt O'Connor as head coach after parting with Aaron Mauger. It has been a season of change at Welford Road with the Director of Rugby and head coach both departing.
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I wasn't a big fan of O'Connor when he was HC at Leinster. Leinster were fairly tumescent to watch with him at the helm and the results weren't particularly great with relation to the talent he had at his disposal.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
Out of 10, how are we rating the tournament? I'm giving it an 8 out of 10. One team being easy beats for much of the tournament and the winner determined a week early takes some marks off. The rugby on display has been of good quality. Credit to the officials who i think have done well. Can't think of a game where the refs could be blamed for the outcome of a match. Of the three annual international tournaments involving tier one nations played post the last world cup, i think this has been the best. While acknowledging New Zealand's excellence, last year's Rugby Championship was a forgettable one horse race. Let's hope for something different in the Rugby Championship this year. If Super Rugby is anything to go by, this years Rugby Championship will be a one horse race. In the meantime, best of luck to the Lions in New Zealand. History is against them but i hope the Lions win the series.
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I'm off work sick today again so I can reply to this :D I think how evenly matched the teams are made it a good tournament. This article sums up the permutations that could quite easily have happened:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...x-nations-wales-ireland-france-scotland-italy

Granted, that title is an exagerration because it's actually TWO tries in two matches as they say in the article, but the last-minute England try against Wales proved to be the most crucial one. The other strengths of the tournament were the do-or-die defences and the extraordinary passion of the occasions, as described in that Aussie article from before. Defence has become an art, and I think some of the try-saving tackles we see nowadays are as good as tries - getting your hand under the ball in a last-ditch tackle must be a skill they all practice nowadays! As an aside, I think that's one rule that could do with being changed - being held up when the clock is red should not be the end of the match, it should go back for the scrum that would happen in normal time. Another strength was the kicking from hand, bar England against Italy, which in general worked really well, including some fantastic cross-field kicking at times. It's skillful and exciting because it's so pinpoint and opens up space.

Where I think there's a weakness in the Six Nations is the over-reliance on first-up bashing. It just gets boring, and in Ireland's case, it's excruciatingly, agonisingly ineffective. Ireland would have a grand slam if they were more incisive just once or twice at crucial times in matches rather than just bashing away. I would imagine it's very dull for neutrals. There's nothing like smart running plays and quick hands, and the few examples of that were great to watch - Scotland versus Ireland, Ireland vs Italy, that last minute try for England, France vs Wales til Barnes got involved for examples. The bonus point system didn't really make all that much of a difference in the end for encouraging more tries, simply because grinding away rather than having cutting plays were what most of the teams ended up doing. The bravery of the players is undeniable, but more guile would be more exciting.

Feel free to say I'm way off base on any of these points :D 7/10 tournament.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I'm off work sick today again so I can reply to this :D I think how evenly matched the teams are made it a good tournament. This article sums up the permutations that could quite easily have happened:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...x-nations-wales-ireland-france-scotland-italy

Granted, that title is an exagerration because it's actually TWO tries in two matches as they say in the article, but the last-minute England try against Wales proved to be the most crucial one. The other strengths of the tournament were the do-or-die defences and the extraordinary passion of the occasions, as described in that Aussie article from before. Defence has become an art, and I think some of the try-saving tackles we see nowadays are as good as tries - getting your hand under the ball in a last-ditch tackle must be a skill they all practice nowadays! As an aside, I think that's one rule that could do with being changed - being held up when the clock is red should not be the end of the match, it should go back for the scrum that would happen in normal time. Another strength was the kicking from hand, bar England against Italy, which in general worked really well, including some fantastic cross-field kicking at times. It's skillful and exciting because it's so pinpoint and opens up space.

Where I think there's a weakness in the Six Nations is the over-reliance on first-up bashing. It just gets boring, and in Ireland's case, it's excruciatingly, agonisingly ineffective. Ireland would have a grand slam if they were more incisive just once or twice at crucial times in matches rather than just bashing away. I would imagine it's very dull for neutrals. There's nothing like smart running plays and quick hands, and the few examples of that were great to watch - Scotland versus Ireland, Ireland vs Italy, that last minute try for England, France vs Wales til Barnes got involved for examples. The bonus point system didn't really make all that much of a difference in the end for encouraging more tries, simply because grinding away rather than having cutting plays were what most of the teams ended up doing. The bravery of the players is undeniable, but more guile would be more exciting.

Feel free to say I'm way off base on any of these points :D 7/10 tournament.
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http://www.the42.ie/analysis-jared-payne-fullback-ireland-3296144-Mar2017/?utm_source=twitter_self
http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-attack-scotland-murrayfield-3227880-Feb2017/

I'd say these two articles accurately describe the nature of our attacking play.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Good auld Murray Kinsella. Fixing defenders, off-loading. I really hope the likes of Payne and O'Halloran are given a proper go at Full Back now that the tournament is over.
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That should happen on the tour to Japan; I can't really see the benefits of bringing players like Heaslip and Kearney to Japan if they aren't selected for the Lions Tour. The tests against Japan should be opportunities for some of the younger players to make more of an impression i.e. O'Halloran, Carbery, Rory Scannell, and Olding.
 
Rawls said:
That should happen on the tour to Japan; I can't really see the benefits of bringing players like Heaslip and Kearney to Japan if they aren't selected for the Lions Tour. The tests against Japan should be opportunities for some of the younger players to make more of an impression i.e. O'Halloran, Carbery, Rory Scannell, and Olding.
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Dang, comments on the more recent article mentioned Payne is 30! He's no long term solution either then. Fingers crossed for giving youth a go on that tour and actually carrying it forward to the next big test matches.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Dang, comments on the more recent article mentioned Payne is 30! He's no long term solution either then. Fingers crossed for giving youth a go on that tour and actually carrying it forward to the next big test matches.
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I'd say that it is highly unlikely there will be wholesale changes, so there's no real possibility the young players will replace some of the old guard. A few might sneak in, most likely in the back-row but Schmidt does tend to be quite risk-averse when it comes to selecting players.

Anyway, I 'd like to see this squad to play against Japan:

1. Denis Buckley
2. Niall Scannell
3. John Ryan
4. Iain Henderson
5. Ultan Dillane (I think he's injured however)
6. Dan Leavy
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jack Conan
9. Kieran Marmion
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Adam Byrne
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Garry Ringrose
14. Darren Sweetnam
15. Tiernan O'Halloran
16. James Tracy
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Finlay Bealham
19. Ross Molony
20. Jack O'Donoghue
21. Luke McGrath
22. Joey Carbery
23. Rory Scannell/ Stuart Olding
 
Rawls said:
I'd say that it is highly unlikely there will be wholesale changes, so there's no real possibility the young players will replace some of the old guard. A few might sneak in, most likely in the back-row but Schmidt does tend to be quite risk-averse when it comes to selecting players.

Anyway, I 'd like to see this squad to play against Japan:

1. Denis Buckley
2. Niall Scannell
3. John Ryan
4. Iain Henderson
5. Ultan Dillane (I think he's injured however)
6. Dan Leavy
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jack Conan
9. Kieran Marmion
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Adam Byrne
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Garry Ringrose
14. Darren Sweetnam
15. Tiernan O'Halloran
16. James Tracy
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Finlay Bealham
19. Ross Molony
20. Jack O'Donoghue
21. Luke McGrath
22. Joey Carbery
23. Rory Scannell/ Stuart Olding
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Shoulder injury, season over though I'm not sure exactly when he'll be back.
 
Anyway, here goes my way too early prediction for the Lions' starting XV (What I would do):

1. Jack McGrath
2. Jamie George
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. CJ Stander
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Liam Williams
12. Owen Farrell
13. Robbie Henshaw
14. Tommy Seymour
15. Stuart Hogg


I'd be shocked if that was actually the team; instead, I feel Gatland will pick George North, Sam Warburton and Jonathan Davies to start.
 
K2K said:
I don't understand the rationale of having the home nations go on tour during a lions year.

Is it because of the money?
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Largely because of the money but also a chance to blood new talent.

When you are Irish and your head coach prefers to start 36 year olds with replacement hips and adult diapers, than trust young fellas in test matches for 3.5 years out of every 4, this is a very welcome if not essential addition to the calendar.
 
Rawls said:
Anyway, here goes my way too early prediction for the Lions' starting XV (What I would do):

1. Jack McGrath
2. Jamie George
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. CJ Stander
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Liam Williams
12. Owen Farrell
13. Robbie Henshaw
14. Tommy Seymour
15. Stuart Hogg


I'd be shocked if that was actually the team; instead, I feel Gatland will pick George North, Sam Warburton and Jonathan Davies to start.
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Nice team and pretty close to mine.

  • As a huge McGrath fan, I thought he didn't have the best of tournaments and fell just behind Vunipola for me. Otherwise your front row is spot on.
  • Itoje - I just don't get the hype. He is clearly a wonderful athlete but he is rash beyond belief and was worth at least 4 more penalties than he cost on Saturday. Launchbury was the player of the 6N for me and has to start beside Jones who I think should be captain.
  • Backrow and Halfbacks are bang on.
  • In the centres I would go with Farrell and Joseph as the tried and tested, more attack gifted duo. With Farrell as 10 cover I'd have Henshaw on the bench instead of another 10.
  • I like your back 3 but I'm still worried about Hogg starting. He's a gifted attacker but I'm terrified of the idea of him defending against a fresh NZ attack. I'd start North and Seymour/Nowell on the wings with the excellent Liam Williams at FB. Springing Hogg from the bench with 20-30 minutes to go would be awesome.
Test Side:
Vunipola George Furlong
Launchbury Jones
Stander Vunipola Tipuric
Murray Sexton
North Farrell Joseph Nowell
Williams

McGrath, Owens, Cole, Itoje, Warburton, Webb, Henshaw, Hogg

Midweek Side:
McGrath Owens Cole
J.Gray Itoje
O'Mahony Faletau Warburton
Laidlaw Ford
Seymour Henshaw Ringrose Daly
Hogg

Evans, Best, Sinckler, Kruis, O'Brien, Webb, Russel, Halfpenny​
 
diarm said:
Largely because of the money but also a chance to blood new talent.

When you are Irish and your head coach prefers to start 36 year olds with replacement hips and adult diapers, than trust young fellas in test matches for 3.5 years out of every 4, this is a very welcome if not essential addition to the calendar.
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:lol:

That makes sense.

Thanks.
 
diarm said:
Nice team and pretty close to mine.

  • As a huge McGrath fan, I thought he didn't have the best of tournaments and fell just behind Vunipola for me. Otherwise your front row is spot on.
  • Itoje - I just don't get the hype. He is clearly a wonderful athlete but he is rash beyond belief and was worth at least 4 more penalties than he cost on Saturday. Launchbury was the player of the 6N for me and has to start beside Jones who I think should be captain.
  • Backrow and Halfbacks are bang on.
  • In the centres I would go with Farrell and Joseph as the tried and tested, more attack gifted duo. With Farrell as 10 cover I'd have Henshaw on the bench instead of another 10.
  • I like your back 3 but I'm still worried about Hogg starting. He's a gifted attacker but I'm terrified of the idea of him defending against a fresh NZ attack. I'd start North and Seymour/Nowell on the wings with the excellent Liam Williams at FB. Springing Hogg from the bench with 20-30 minutes to go would be awesome.
Test Side:
Vunipola George Furlong
Launchbury Jones
Stander Vunipola Tipuric
Murray Sexton
North Farrell Joseph Nowell
Williams

McGrath, Owens, Cole, Itoje, Warburton, Webb, Henshaw, Hogg

Midweek Side:
McGrath Owens Cole
J.Gray Itoje
O'Mahony Faletau Warburton
Laidlaw Ford
Seymour Henshaw Ringrose Daly
Hogg

Evans, Best, Sinckler, Kruis, O'Brien, Webb, Russel, Halfpenny​
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I'd go with

1 Vunipola 2 George 3 Furlong 4 Jonny Gray 5 Itoje 6 Stander 7 Warburton 8 Billy Vunipola 9 Murray 10 Sexton 11 Williams 12 Farrell 13 Joseph 14 Seymour 15 Hogg Bench - McGrath, Owens, Cole, Launchbury, O'Mahony, Webb, Henshaw, Daly.

Interesting almost everyone has Jamie George at 2 considering he didn't get much playing time in 6N, but anyone who has watched Saracens over past 2 years can see his quality and I don't think you'd find an England fan who wouldn't pick George over Hartley.

With Itoje I would have to disagree. IMO the hype is real, for me at 22 is already one of the best in his position (lock). In 6N he was played out of position and still did a decent job at 6. As he gets older and matures I think he will cut out the penalties. When looking at him it's important to remember just how young he is, 22 and already showing up some much more experienced players.

I know this probably will be controversial but based on the locks available and form over past 12 months, AWJ doesn't even make my bench. He was generally consistent before his surgery, however he done nothing special recently in my opinion. I'd take J.Gray, Itoje, Launchbury and if fit, Kruis over him. His captaincy has also been called into question this 6N, spineless at time. I'm sure I'm in minority on that one.

I wouldn't mind seeing Warburton captain, he's a ton of experience in the role, for me he should be first choice 7, his form has been outstanding this tournament. Maybe Stander or Farrell if not.​
 
Congratulations to Romania for winning the European Rugby Championship after beating Georgia 8-7 last weekend.
 
@Rooney1987 fair point on Itoje. He's definitely a wonderful talent but I just think people spent more time this tournament talking about how good he is supposed to be, rather than actually watching his performance. He also got more than the rub of the green off referees because I thought in both the Welsh and Irish games, he could easily have been sent off.

Thought Jonny Gray had a disappointing 6N as well. He'd have been in my side going into the tournament but didn't reach the heights he's capable of. Launchbury has to start for me, he was my player of the tournament by a distance.

I'd have AWJ in, not as you mentioned because he's necessarily the best lock, but for me he's the best captain. Warburton has said himself he doesn't love being captain and he plays better without the added responsibility. Also Sam had a good 6N at 6, where he was moved to because Tipuric is so good at 7. He's the only natural openside in the mix and his skill levels are well above any of the rest of our loosies. Going to NZ I think he'll be essential.
 
Nice follow up video to the first phase of the bid here:

 
Referees for the series have been announced. Two Frenchmen and a South African will have the whistle for the series.

Jaco Peyper will referee the first at Eden Park of June24

Jerome Garces will referee the second test in Wellington on July 1

Romain Poite will referee the final test at Eden Park on July 8.

I'm not a massive fan of Jaco Peyper. He didn't have a great game when Ireland played New Zealand in Dublin last year. Was wrong to sin bin Aaron Smith and should have sent Fekitoa off. In three of his last five tests involving New Zealand, Peyper has issued an All Black a yellow card. We'll how strong he is on any New Zealand I'll discipline in New Zealand though.

In 2013, Romain Poite sin binned Bismarck Du Plessis for having the temerity to tackle Dan Carter in one of the wort refereeing decisions I've seen. Justin Marshall said "no, that's rubbish" when the card came. His monumental blunder went a fair way to ruining the biggest game in New Zealand post the 2011 World Cup. In his defense he handled the series decider four years ago solidly.

Jerome Garces for me is the best of the bunch and I would have given him the first and third tests. He's refereed some big tests in recent years and done so solidly. Yes, he's not perfect. No referee is but when he's in charge, I'm confident that the match will be the talking point, not the referee. Interestingly, he has sin binned an all black in each of the last four matches he's refereed them.
 
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Another sad weekend for Aussie teams in Super Rugby with just one Australian side winning a match, a match that was a local derby. One win from 13 games against overseas teams this season is a very concerning record.
 
Pleased with Warriors getting 2 bonus points against Wasps, good performance and looks like we're gonna be staying up.
 
The mess that is Super Rugby has taken another twist. According to the Daily Telegraph (Sydney Based newspaper) the Western Force is the Aussie team that could be axed but only if South Africa loses two teams thus we have a super 15. Funny we had a super 15 tournament that was pretty decent from 2011-2015. Should have kept it that way. This super 18 is a bloody joke. We have a situation where four teams avoid the Kiwi teams and four teams avoid the Aussie sides. SANZAR was far too hasty in making changes, now they've introduced teams who'll be too difficult to cull.
 
Snowbear said:
Pleased with Warriors getting 2 bonus points against Wasps, good performance and looks like we're gonna be staying up.
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Yeah Bristol all but gone now I think. This game felt like super rugby game. Hougaard looks so good, shame he's been injured for a lot of the season. Didn't miss Teo at all.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
The mess that is Super Rugby has taken another twist. According to the Daily Telegraph (Sydney Based newspaper) the Western Force is the Aussie team that could be axed but only if South Africa loses two teams thus we have a super 15. Funny we had a super 15 tournament that was pretty decent from 2011-2015. Should have kept it that way. This super 18 is a bloody joke. We have a situation where four teams avoid the Kiwi teams and four teams avoid the Aussie sides. SANZAR was far too hasty in making changes, now they've introduced teams who'll be too difficult to cull.
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Jagauares seem to be a rather decent addition though.
 
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