RufRTs Obama Windup

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Grinner said:
What's even funnier is that this guy Brown is hardly what I'd call a conservative. The righties love to call Reagan their messiah but he did exactly what they accuse libs of doing to earn their scorn.
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ruf is a nice enough lad...but the moment he spouts nonsense such as "Bush is no longer in power and Obama is" when the mess this country is in is brought up, merely shows we cannot have a serious conversation with him.

let him have his little enjoyment.

..and I chuckle when he says a Reagen kind of conservative is going to drive back into massive power.

Realty check...The GOP is very much a white man's party..(Steele is really a joke of a token btw :lol:) By 2016, 40% of the country will be non-white. and 20 years from now the white race will be a minority.

There is nothing in the GOP agenda that attracts non-whites in large numbers.

The GOP has been getting its votes from a significant portion of the white poplulation by playing the bigotry card...hispanic illegals...black welfare and the like. They have been aided before the last election by non-whites, although in the most voting democrat, not really showing up in numbers.
That changed in 2008 and will continue to be a factor in 2012 and beyond....just because their population increases will gurantee it.

The GOP just does not have the numbers anymore. The current seats they hold with few exception are in large seats they will hold even if the incumbents were caught having sex with a dog and child..at teh same time. :D

The only real option for the Dems is to lose a few seats. They reached their limit in 2008. But they will still have comfortable majorities. All they need to govern, is forget this non-existent bipartisenship and make laws with a simple majority. btw I think Pelosi is hinting at just that with her saying she does not have the votes for health care.

bye bye GOP :smirk:
 
one little noticed fact during the 2008 campaign and the Wright controversy.....

I was following all the state polls very closely for days after it blew up...almost all state polls in the midwest and the east took a dip for Obama...but not the Western States, especially the ones with high Hispanic populations....NM CO and NV.

They were not bothered by the bigotry issues raised by the GOP...they voted their own interests.
 
Raoul said:
I've been advocating a reality check in this thread to no avail. The Democrats control the White House and the Congress by sizable margins. Two days ago they lost one seat in the U.S. Senate and by reading Ruf's posts you'd think a revolution took place. Obama still has majority numbers most Presidents could only dream of.
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The dems will still manage to feck everything up though.
 
Red Dreams said:
ruf is a nice enough lad...but the moment he spouts nonsense such as "Bush is no longer in power and Obama is" when the mess this country is in is brought up, merely shows we cannot have a serious conversation with him.

let him have his little enjoyment.

..and I chuckle when he says a Reagen kind of conservative is going to drive back into massive power.

Realty check...The GOP is very much a white man's party..(Steele is really a joke of a token btw :lol:) By 2016, 40% of the country will be non-white. and 20 years from now the white race will be a minority.

There is nothing in the GOP agenda that attracts non-whites in large numbers.

The GOP has been getting its votes from a significant portion of the white poplulation by playing the bigotry card...hispanic illegals...black welfare and the like. They have been aided before the last election by non-whites, although in the most voting democrat, not really showing up in numbers.
That changed in 2008 and will continue to be a factor in 2012 and beyond....just because their population increases will gurantee it.

The GOP just does not have the numbers anymore. The current seats they hold with few exception are in large seats they will hold even if the incumbents were caught having sex with a dog and child..at teh same time. :D

The only real option for the Dems is to lose a few seats. They reached their limit in 2008. But they will still have comfortable majorities. All they need to govern, is forget this non-existent bipartisenship and make laws with a simple majority. btw I think Pelosi is hinting at just that with her saying she does not have the votes for health care.

bye bye GOP :smirk:
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I'll bet large money that Brown loses his seat in 2012 too.
 
Red Dreams said:
The only real option for the Dems is to lose a few seats. They reached their limit in 2008. But they will still have comfortable majorities. All they need to govern, is forget this non-existent bipartisenship and make laws with a simple majority. btw I think Pelosi is hinting at just that with her saying she does not have the votes for health care.
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That would be fine if Democrats were ideologically purist like the Republicans. But they're not. About a third of the Dems are either 'moderate' (read: well right of centre), or representing Republican states, or both. These people are going to be shitting it after seeing what happened in MA. Shit, Dems in safe seats are going to be shitting it.

With the Republicans aiming to filibuster everything, because they have no interest in policy, only in winning, a 'comfortable majority' isn't enough. They're going to need every last Blanche Lincoln, Arlen Spector, Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and feckin Lieberman, plus the odd Olympia Snowe, to get anything through. I.e., nothing remotely progressive's going through.

That's the problem with the parties. You vote in the Republicans and you get a bunch of amoral bastards, with the discipline to get things done. You vote Democrat and you get a bunch of well-meaning but bickering cnuts who get nothing done.
 
Plechazunga said:
That would be fine if Democrats were ideologically purist like the Republicans. But they're not. About a third of the Dems are either 'moderate' (read: well right of centre), or representing Republican states, or both. These people are going to be shitting it after seeing what happened in MA. Shit, Dems in safe seats are going to be shitting it.

With the Republicans aiming to filibuster everything, because they have no interest in policy, only in winning, a 'comfortable majority' isn't enough. They're going to need every last Blanche Lincoln, Arlen Spector, Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and feckin Lieberman, plus the odd Olympia Snowe, to get anything through. I.e., nothing remotely progressive's going through.

That's the problem with the parties. You vote in the Republicans and you get a bunch of amoral bastards, with the discipline to get things done. You vote Democrat and you get a bunch of well-meaning but bickering cnuts who get nothing done.
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the immediate instinct would be to go right. But if cooler heads prevail, the Dems will realise that if they actually made policies that helped ordinary families, they don't have to worry. The worst thing they can do is Not pass health care. That is why I believe they will even if through reconciliation. They need to break up the bill and pass the parts that refer to lifetime limits, pre-existing conditions and bankruptcy. Make the Rethugs filibuster them.
 
RufRT said:
Are you saying the MP Expenses scandal wasn't exciting ? :D
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I wouldn't call finding out the then Home Secretary put an 88p bath plug on expenses or the PM using expenses to hire a cleaner for his brother's flat exciting - intriguing perhaps.
 
Raoul said:
I've been advocating a reality check in this thread to no avail. The Democrats control the White House and the Congress by sizable margins. Two days ago they lost one seat in the U.S. Senate and by reading Ruf's posts you'd think a revolution took place. Obama still has majority numbers most Presidents could only dream of.
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You're right, one year into Obama's Presidency, Monday was insignificant.

If that allows you to sleep well at night, go for it

Keep watching this space though....we'll check back again in six months and have another update kids ;)
 
RufRT said:
You're right, one year into Obama's Presidency, Monday was insignificant.

If that allows you to sleep well at night, go for it

Keep watching this space though....we'll check back again in six months and have another update kids ;)
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Unless there is a strategy change for the Dems the Repubs are going sweep congress.

Oh well, you get the government you deserve.
 
Its funny hearing some of you talk so well about the American dream. I came hear 11 years ago with nothing... literally, 2 suitcases and $1000. I now have a successful business in a field that I knew little about before I arrived here, I own a condo(no mortgage, its paid for, I paid $475k cash) on Chicago's gold coast... look it up if you're interested. My business pays me a 6 figure salary a year and I now employ 3 people. I'm looking to buy an investment property some time soon if my accountant gives me the green light.... did I mention I arrived here 11 years ago with nothing, believe me the American dream exists, I can vouch for it.

There is no chance I would be living the life style I live now if I was still in Ireland/UK
 
Dresilved said:
Its funny hearing some of you talk so well about the American dream. I came hear 11 years ago with nothing... literally, 2 suitcases and $1000. I now have a successful business in a field that I knew little about before I arrived here, I own a condo(no mortgage, its paid for, I paid $475k cash) on Chicago's gold coast... look it up if you're interested. My business pays me a 6 figure salary a year and I now employ 3 people. I'm looking to buy an investment property some time soon if my accountant gives me the green light.... did I mention I arrived here 11 years ago with nothing, believe me the American dream exists, I can vouch for it.

There is no chance I would be living the life style I live now if I was still in Ireland/UK
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congrats, I'm sure the 3 people you employ appreciate your hard work.

Wishing you continued success !
 
Team Brian GB said:
He doesn't get a full six year mandate, he gets the remainder of Kennedy's term so is up for election again in November 2012.
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If he sticks to truly independant principles and listens to his constituents, he will be easily re-elected.

He's national now...if he delivers and doesn't lose sight of what got him there, he's a lock to be re-elected.
 
RufRT said:
If he sticks to truly independant principles and listens to his constituents, he will be easily re-elected.

He's national now...if he delivers and doesn't lose sight of what got him there, he's a lock to be re-elected.
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Key word in the statement. This is the main problem with politics. Espoused values versus acted values. Almost never the same.
 
RufRT said:
It is, but it can and should be streamlined. We are peer reviewed and guideline driven as well...except those guidelines typically take into consideration legal aspects as well as the right practice algorithm. I am convinced that you will only modify entrenched physician practice behaviours in the USA once the threat of malpractice is pared to reason.
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That's insane. Talk about putting the cart before the horse!
 
Dresilved said:
Its funny hearing some of you talk so well about the American dream. I came hear 11 years ago with nothing... literally, 2 suitcases and $1000. I now have a successful business in a field that I knew little about before I arrived here, I own a condo(no mortgage, its paid for, I paid $475k cash) on Chicago's gold coast... look it up if you're interested. My business pays me a 6 figure salary a year and I now employ 3 people. I'm looking to buy an investment property some time soon if my accountant gives me the green light.... did I mention I arrived here 11 years ago with nothing, believe me the American dream exists, I can vouch for it.

There is no chance I would be living the life style I live now if I was still in Ireland/UK
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As I said, in a country of 300 million people there will be many success stories.

But look at the stats in the Economist article I posted, it's not working for many people - in fact, the system is stacked against them, rewarding the hard-working poor far less than the scions of already wealthy families (albeit they mostly also work hard).

I bought a lottery ticket this morning, if I win does that mean Britain is the place to go if you want good luck?
 
Plechazunga said:
As I said, in a country of 300 million people there will be many success stories.

But look at the stats in the Economist article I posted, it's not working for many people - in fact, the system is stacked against them, rewarding the hard-working poor far less than the scions of already wealthy families (albeit they mostly also work hard).

I bought a lottery ticket this morning, if I win does that mean Britain is the place to go if you want good luck?
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My success has been nothing to do with luck, at the beginning I worked and hustled every day for 3 years without let up to get off the ground. I tried the same thing in Ireland, England and German, believe me its much much harder in any of those places, I'm not saying America is easy, but its easier.

I have been going to the same pub for 10 years to watch the football, I've met countless expats there UK/Ireland mostly, that's where all my friends from over here originate from now, I'd say out of the core 12-15 fellas I watch football with, I'd probably be at the lower end of the success rate and compared to all my friends and family from "back home" I'm probably the most successful....do the math. Its also funny how every single one of them over here talks fondly of "back home" yet not one of them without fail will ever go back.... wonder why that is?
 
Plechazunga said:
As I said, in a country of 300 million people there will be many success stories.

But look at the stats in the Economist article I posted, it's not working for many people - in fact, the system is stacked against them, rewarding the hard-working poor far less than the scions of already wealthy families (albeit they mostly also work hard).

I bought a lottery ticket this morning, if I win does that mean Britain is the place to go if you want good luck?
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Your assumption is that the only reason he succeeded was "good luck".

Its the typical socialist sentiment that the only reason people get ahead is due to better fortune and silver spoons, and the downtrodden just bad luck. Did you ever consider that hard work had more to do with his success than "good luck" ?

I have a better suggestion than buying a lotto ticket...work harder.
 
RufRT said:
Your assumption is that the only reason he succeeded was "good luck".

Its the typical socialist sentiment that the only reason people get ahead is due to better fortune and silver spoons, and the downtrodden just bad luck. Did you ever consider that hard work had more to do with his success than "good luck" ?

I have a better suggestion than buying a lotto ticket...work harder.
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So the reason that the wealth gap is increasing in the US is because Americans are generally lazy? Sorry, I don't buy it.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
So the reason that the wealth gap is increasing in the US is because Americans are generally lazy? Sorry, I don't buy it.
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I would say laziness is the not right word, what I can say is the amount of assistants I've gone through to find one who is actually willing to expend some energy is frightening, everybody wants to be 9-5 behind a desk or a computer, nobody is willing to work nights or weekends without double the money, I don't get double the money from the client to allow for that. I'm 45 years old and I can literally do the work of 2 average 20 year olds, they get tired real easy..bless em! Its all me me me, I want I want I want... not laziness... its entitlement, I have no doubt about this.
 
Dresilved said:
I would say laziness is the not right word, what I can say is the amount of assistants I've gone through to find one who is actually willing to expend some energy is frightening, everybody wants to be 9-5 behind a desk or a computer, nobody is willing to work nights or weekends without double the money, I don't get double the money from the client to allow for that. I'm 45 years old and I can literally do the work of 2 average 20 year olds, they get tired real easy..bless em! Its all me me me, I want I want I want... not laziness... its entitlement, I have no doubt about this.
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Firstly in my experience being a senior manager, many people Are willing to put in the extra hours without expecting to be rewarded accordingly. Of course there are exceptions.

But the rewards for an owner is far greater than an hourly worker for example for putting the extra hours. In the end the employee looks at take home pay.

Nothing wrong with that so long as they put in a honest day's work, which most do.
 
Dresilved said:
My success has been nothing to do with luck, at the beginning I worked and hustled every day for 3 years without let up to get off the ground. I tried the same thing in Ireland, England and German, believe me its much much harder in any of those places, I'm not saying America is easy, but its easier.

I have been going to the same pub for 10 years to watch the football, I've met countless expats there UK/Ireland mostly, that's where all my friends from over here originate from now, I'd say out of the core 12-15 fellas I watch football with, I'd probably be at the lower end of the success rate and compared to all my friends and family from "back home" I'm probably the most successful....do the math. Its also funny how every single one of them over here talks fondly of "back home" yet not one of them without fail will ever go back.... wonder why that is?
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RufRT said:
Your assumption is that the only reason he succeeded was "good luck".

Its the typical socialist sentiment that the only reason people get ahead is due to better fortune and silver spoons, and the downtrodden just bad luck. Did you ever consider that hard work had more to do with his success than "good luck" ?
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You both missed the point of the analogy, which wasn't to suggest that Dresilved's success was solely down to luck, but to point out that the outcome of a single event is not a good way to determine the conditions obtaining across an entire class of events.

Same goes for your friends and family, Dre. Minute sample size, compared to the statistical data I'm referring to. Which makes your "do the math" flourish particularly ironic.

That said, it may well be that the US still has greater social mobility than the UK and Ireland. I don't know. But the best way we could find out is by getting some proper data, not relying on your own personal history.

Either way, social mobility and meritocracy in the US has plummeted. You can respond to that fact by accusing people who bring it up of being socialists (which is also Raoul's favourite rhetorical gambit these days, for some reason). Or you can be honest with yourself.

Ruft said:
I have a better suggestion than buying a lotto ticket...work harder.
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I didn't really buy a lottery ticket this morning, it was an analogy. I've never bought a lottery ticket. That's not to say I shouldn't work harder mind...
 
Red Dreams said:
Firstly in my experience being a senior manager, many people Are willing to put in the extra hours without expecting to be rewarded accordingly. Of course there are exceptions.

But the rewards for an owner is far greater than an hourly worker for example for putting the extra hours. In the end the employee looks at take home pay.

Nothing wrong with that so long as they put in a honest day's work, which most do.
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Maybe in an office environment or a stable turn up for work at 8:30am sitting at your desk for $45+ per year. But in an unskilled $30k per year position which is what I pay its not so idealistic, and my staff don't even do 40 hours per week usually but I still pay for 40, but some variation in hours is required and I make that clear before I hire them. I can tell you for a fact the amount of times an assistant has called in sick for an early saturday morning shoot and left me to carry a 600lbs worth of gear around on my own is staggering, I've been let down so many times I'm reluctant to book weekend jobs.
 
Plechazunga, I do realize that my evidence is highly anecdotal and I'm usually the first to campaign against that. I have a feeling though that if you were sat with us after a game on a saturday morning, into our 3 pint, football is left behind and we start talking about other stuff. And on the day you were with us it happened to be the about the pros and cons of living in American. I feel confident you'd surprised at the overwhelming view by expats of how much less effort is required here to succeed in business, I bet if you take a random poll on the cafe of expats who are living in America you'd find that any who are here by choice and not because they were sent here by their work would tell you something similar.

Behind every set of stats like from the Economist - which I subscribe to btw - there is another set of stats unaccounted for. I can tell you that I've never met anyone who has come from having nothing to being successful by accident. I can also tell you the ones who come and work for me who put in the effort are the ones who will go on to better things in their own time.

Not everyone will make it in this country but I have no doubt there is nowhere you will have a better chance as an immigrant.
 
Dresilved said:
Plechazunga, I do realize that my evidence is highly anecdotal and I'm usually the first to campaign against that. I have a feeling though that if you were sat with us after a game on a saturday morning, into our 3 pint, football is left behind and we start talking about other stuff. And on the day you were with us it happened to be the about the pros and cons of living in American. I feel confident you'd surprised at the overwhelming view by expats of how much less effort is required here to succeed in business, I bet if you take a random poll on the cafe of expats who are living in America you'd find that any who are here by choice and not because they were sent here by their work would tell you something similar.
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I know what you're saying, and there is a role for gut feeling. And it's undoubtedly easier to start - and close - businesses in the US than in most other countries, that much is true.

Behind every set of stats like from the Economist - which I subscribe to btw - there is another set of stats unaccounted for.
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Maybe so - what are they?

I can tell you that I've never met anyone who has come from having nothing to being successful by accident.
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Really? I have. In fact, I am one, in that when my old man died the money I inherited gave me a significant leg-up. I'm living in a flat I couldn't have afforded without that.

On another level, I know a guy whose dad, in middle age, suddenly got extremely rich and has given him millions of pounds. And then there's the aristocracy.

Not everyone will make it in this country but I have no doubt there is nowhere you will have a better chance as an immigrant.
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Maybe you're right, I don't know without seeing some data. I was under the impression that the Scandinavian countries had the highest upward social mobility, but I'm not sure if that applies to immigrants.

Certainly one of the most admirable things, probably the most admirable, has been the opportunities it offered to better yourself. But that has been declining for decades. This remains true - a matter of fact - whether or not the US is still relatively strong on this front compared to other nations.
 
Plechazunga;7477419]
Maybe so - what are they?
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I wasn't being specific, I meant it in a general sense, meaning I don't trust data these days, I don't even trust climate data anymore, I think there are too many who wish to manipulate it for their own ends, but I don't think a smart man like yourself needs to be told this. I read the economist and the wall street journal because to me they represent the last bastions of free journalism but I still don't trust data.



Really? I have. In fact, I am one, in that when my old man died the money I inherited gave me a significant leg-up. I'm living in a flat I couldn't have afforded without that.

On another level, I know a guy whose dad, in middle age, suddenly got extremely rich and has given him millions of pounds. And then there's the aristocracy.
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I have never met you or the other fellow you're talking about.... but whilst were at it, whos being anecdotal now?...haha. I'd take a guess that for every lucky fella like yourself or lottery winners there are 100s or 1000s more self made people... but thats just a guess.
 
Dresilved said:
I have never met you or the other fellow you're talking about.... but whilst were at it, whos being anecdotal now?...haha.
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Well anecdotal's okay if all you need to counter an argument is one or two examples - which was the case there! Less acceptable when you're talking about general propositions like the US having the best social mobility in the world.

I'd take a guess that for every lucky fella like yourself or lottery winners there are 100s or 1000s more self made people... but thats just a guess.
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It's surely a wrong guess. Rich people tend to leave their money to their children, after all. But yes, if you're right, then social mobility is alive and well and the gap between rich and poor is closing rapidly...

But you're not right.
 
Plechazunga said:
Well anecdotal's okay if all you need to counter an argument is one or two examples - which was the case there! Less acceptable when you're talking about general propositions like the US having the best social mobility in the world.



It's surely a wrong guess. Rich people tend to leave their money to their children, after all. But yes, if you're right, then social mobility is alive and well and the gap between rich and poor is closing rapidly...

But you're not right.
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Nowhere have I said the social gap is closing, it is definitely not closing, what I'm saying is that for any wannabe entrepreneurs who wish to try and cross that gap, the opportunity is most definitely there. By self made I don't mean rich, I mean self dependent small business men like myself who do not depend on others to pay their wage, I know dozens of them, I don't know any who've inherited money or lottery winners, maybe thats just the world I live in.
 
Plechazunga said:
Well anecdotal's okay if all you need to counter an argument is one or two examples - which was the case there! Less acceptable when you're talking about general propositions like the US having the best social mobility in the world.



It's surely a wrong guess. Rich people tend to leave their money to their children, after all. But yes, if you're right, then social mobility is alive and well and the gap between rich and poor is closing rapidly...

But you're not right.
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You say this as it as a bad thing, that said I would be a proponent of a decent tax on inheritance
 
Alex said:
Yes I know, but it could be higher.
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how much would you like to see?

So if work my bollocks off my entire life and leave a nice little nest egg, proving jobs for others, paying more taxes during my life than most others, providing a good education for my kids so that hopefully they can go on and the do the same thing proving jobs for others... helping the economy so to speak by giving instead of taking, leaving nothing major a million bucks maybe 2 which is not that much when you think a property alone could make up half that amount, you think my kids should have to pay a bill of more than 400k - 1M of it back to the government for all my effort?.... why is that fair?
 
Dresilved said:
Nowhere have I said the social gap is closing, it is definitely not closing
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No, if there are thousands of times more self-made rich (or let's say, 'successful') than inheritors of wealth/sucess, as you speculated, then mobility would have had to have increased massively in recent years, as would economic growth (assuming most of those profits have not been made directly from the pool of inherited wealth).

Alex said:
You say this as it as a bad thing, that said I would be a proponent of a decent tax on inheritance
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Well, I'd be a hypocrite if I said I wanted to get rid of it, as I've benefited from it myself (we're not talking great riches, but enough to make a difference to my quality of life).

But yes, I think it basically is a bad thing. It stratifies society. Unfortunately, it's human nature, there's not a lot that can be done about it without seriously infringing human rights.

I agree with you that it should be heavily taxed. Problem is, the seriously wealthy barely pay that tax.
 
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