RufRTs Obama Windup

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The need for health care reform is still supported by the majority, however the support for the House and Senate bills has dipped below 50%.

I don't think there's a need for Obama to get all Republicans on board. The old guard right wingers like Mitch McConnell, Saxby Chambliss, John Ensign, Inhofe, etc will never agree to any sort of reform. He just needs to get Susan Collins and Olympia Snow on board. Their political leanings are closer to blue dog Dems than Republicans and so it would basically just require a reworking of the issues that Snow and or Collins find objectionable in the bill.



:lol::lol::lol:

yep, all Snowe and Collins want is no public option and lower overall costs....Dems will step rank and file behind that right ?

You seem to want to ignore the fact that Obamas performance so far will bleed off members of his own party when it comes time for future votes. One year into his presidency, and he's already resembling a lame duck.
 
:lol::lol::lol:

yep, all Snowe and Collins want is no public option and lower overall costs....Dems will step rank and file behind that right ?

You seem to want to ignore the fact that Obamas performance so far will bleed off members of his own party when it comes time for future votes. One year into his presidency, and he's already resembling a lame duck.

The public option has been off the table in the Senate for some time. Collins and Snowe (more so Snowe) voted against the bill in order to tow the party line, when infact Olympia Snowe is very close to being agreeable with the Senate version of the bill.
 
Its amazing to me that the Mass. senate result is being glossed over as an "angry electorate".

This wasn't republicans angry about last year (they only make up 11% of registered voters in massachusetts). This was a broad coalition of conservatives/independants and defecting democrats that see the absurdity of the spending going on.

I hope dems do continue to pursue this watered down healthcare bill...it will piss off the people that much more and insure even more impressive results come November :eek:
 
The public option has been off the table in the Senate for some time. Collins and Snowe (more so Snowe) voted against the bill in order to tow the party line, when infact Olympia Snowe is very close to being agreeable with the Senate version of the bill.

I see, so what you are saying is that after last night, its now MORE likely that Snowe and Collins can be swayed over to the democratic point of view...

wow Raoul, gotta hand it to you for being the worlds biggest optimist.....or completely deluded.
 
I see, so what you are saying is that after last night, its now MORE likely that Snowe and Collins can be swayed over to the democratic point of view...

wow Raoul, gotta hand it to you for being the worlds biggest optimist.....or completely deluded.

Better that than a deluded cynic. :)
 
I think I'm going to puke...what fanboy tripe...

Puke away by all means. Repsect for a guy with noble, useful, and inclusive ideas stymied by an entrenched context that foils him. Apparently that makes me a fanboy. Also a fanboy for that chump Wilson though he failed to pass through his "lofty ideal" of a League of Nations. Not to mention Martin Luther King, though he didn't exactly lick that racism thing. We didn't deserve them either.

I look up to some people and I've no shame in admitting it. Also no shame (though plenty of regret) in believing someone might be better than my time will allow them.


You're late to the game...attacking me personally ended 5 pages ago...

I'm sure you're right and I do apologize that this all comes off as rather personal, though you did seem to be picking the fight from the get-go. I may be unfairly lumping you in with what I see as this whole petty movement that so grinds me teeth. To my ear, your posts makes you sound like it. Seems like you do a good bit of reading up, though your sources seem biased. You'd be sure to say the same about mine I expect.
 
Puke away by all means. Repsect for a guy with noble, useful, and inclusive ideas stymied by an entrenched context that foils him. Apparently that makes me a fanboy. Also a fanboy for that chump Wilson though he failed to pass through his "lofty ideal" of a League of Nations. Not to mention Martin Luther King, though he didn't exactly lick that racism thing. We didn't deserve them either.

I look up to some people and I've no shame in admitting it. Also no shame (though plenty of regret) in believing someone might be better than my time will allow them.




I'm sure you're right and I do apologize that this all comes off as rather personal, though you did seem to be picking the fight from the get-go. I may be unfairly lumping you in with what I see as this whole petty movement that so grinds me teeth. To my ear, your posts makes you sound like it. Seems like you do a good bit of reading up, though your sources seem biased. You'd be sure to say the same about mine I expect.

Most of my sources are either AP or Politico (non partisan).

I stay away from obvious partisan sources like the Huffington Post :lol:

I see you're comparing Obama to MLK. Thats a disservice to Reverend King. He slogged the miles and stumped in far away holes in the South long before he became a household name. Obama was a "community organizer" and a short term junior senator with little legislative accomplishment to his name.

I guess you must have felt his Nobel Peace Prize was deserved too right ?
 
Most of my sources are either AP or Politico (non partisan).

I stay away from obvious partisan sources like the Huffington Post :lol:

I see you're comparing Obama to MLK. Thats a disservice to Reverend King. He slogged the miles and stumped in far away holes in the South long before he became a household name. Obama was a "community organizer" and a short term junior senator with little legislative accomplishment to his name.

I guess you must have felt his Nobel Peace Prize was deserved too right ?

Although it has to be said that King, if he were alive today, would fully support Obama's vision, as do all of his surviving civil rights co-marchers. King wouldn't want anything to do with the divide and conquer Republican schemes of today.
 
Nate Silver at 538.com agrees with my post above about Obama's centrism, though he puts it rather better! -

David Leonhardt at the New York Times has this smart take on the now-imperiled health care bill:

The bills before Congress are politically partisan and substantively bipartisan.

What does that mean? The first part is obvious. All 60 Senate Democrats and independents voted for the bill, and all 40 Republicans voted against it. The second part is the counterintuitive one. Yet it’s true.

The current versions of health reform are the product of decades of debate between Republicans and Democrats. The bills are more conservative than Bill Clinton’s 1993 proposal. For that matter, they’re more conservative than Richard Nixon’s 1971 plan, which would have had the federal government provide insurance to people who didn’t get it through their job.

Emphasis mine. Back in 2008, the smart liberal spin on "post-partisanship" -- one which frankly I bought into -- is that it was in part an effort to put a popular, centrist sheen on a relatively liberal agenda. Instead, as Leonhardt points out, what Obama has wound up with is an unpopular, liberal sheen on a relatively centrist agenda.

It's not just on health care -- but let's talk about health care for a moment. The bill that the Senate Democrats passed did not substantially restructure the system of private insurance, nor the health care delivery system. It did not include a public option. It did, rather, about the minimum that you could do if you want to prevent people with pre-existing conditions from being denied health care. You can't require insurers to cover people with pre-existing conditions unless you're willing to put a mandate into place (otherwise, everyone's premiums would rise substantially). And you can't put a mandate into place without having some reasonably generous subsidies (otherwise, a lot of folks would go broke.) The Senate's bill was about the least radical way to achieve something approaching universal coverage that can be imagined. It was nevertheless a bill that I think would do a tremendous amount of good for tremendous number of people, and so I've advocated for its passage. But with the possible exception of Wyden-Bennett (which not identifiably left or right although much more radical than what the Congress is considering), virtually any attempt to achieve universal coverage would be further to the left of this bill.

The stimulus? The pricetag was much less than what most economists were advocating for. And about half of it was tax cuts -- although you'd never know it from the White House's poor messaging on the subject.

Cap-and-trade? It's a market-based solution, and one that includes significantly less ambitious emissions targets than have been adopted by virtually any other Westernized country. The version of the climate bill that the Senate would consider would in all likelihood have included offshore drilling and an expansion of nuclear energy, making it almost literally identical to the one that John McCain advocated on the campaign trail.

The War in Afghanistan was escalated. Robert Gates is still the defense secretary. Obama's foreign policy has been prudent, but hardly dovish.

The bailout? It was a continuation of a policy adopted under the Bush Administration -- an exceptionally unpopular one, but not one that's identifiably liberal or conservative.

Obama has adopted a few progressive social policies, like the hate crimes bill and the fair pay act, which he perhaps does not get enough credit for. They also happen to be things which are supported by an overwhelming majority of the population. He hasn't pushed on ending Don't Ask Don't Tell (even though that too polls well) or repealing the Defense of Marriage Act. His position on same sex-marriage -- civil unions, but not marriage itself -- is the centrist, plurality position. His Supreme Court nominee, Sonia Sotomayor, was a good one, but not one of the more liberal nominees that he might have considered.

Financial reform? The House's bill was fairly watered down, and the Senate's bill will be more so. Nevertheless, Republicans opposed it uniformly, even though polls show the public overwhelmingly favors stricter regulation of Wall Street.

A jobs bill? The House's version is quite centrist, consisting of about $50 billion apiece in infrastructure projects, tax breaks, and aid to state and local governments. Nevertheless, not a single Republican voted for it.

What's more alarming still is that some of the policies which have become unpopular -- like the health care bill and arguably the stimulus (although the polling is more equivocal there) -- did not start out that way. With the exception of the bailouts -- a policy which the White House certainly wasn't pursing for political expediency -- virtually every policy that the Democrats have advanced polled reasonably well when it was first proposed. It did not always end up that way after it had been through the legislative meat grinder. The reflexive Republican opposition to virtually any policy that the Democrats advanced -- they've overwhelmingly opposed policies as benign as delaying the digital TV changeover date! -- has in retrospect been exceptionally effective.

This is not to suggest that the Democrats should say feck it all and adopt an agenda that really is leftist -- it couldn't get the support of the Congress anyway -- although there are important exceptions where the liberal alternative (the public option being a good example) polls better than the centrist one.

But the problem, it seems to me, is not so much with the policy but with the messaging. Most of the policies that the Democrats will consider in the spring -- in particular, the jobs bill, the bank tax, and financial regulation -- do poll well, for the time being. The Democrats cannot necessarily count on them ending up that way, however, if their track record over the last year provides any guidance.

I absolutely acknowledge that the White House has inherited an exceptionally difficult situation, one made much more difficult when the economy continued to bleed 700,000 jobs per month in January through April. Many of the problems that they have encountered, I would not have seen coming, and many of the mistakes that they have made, I would have made too.

But the Democrats do have the benefit of hindsight now -- and they ought to take advantage of it. For one thing, they need to be very careful about rewarding Republican nihilism. The best case is when you can simultaneously achieve both a policy and a political victory. More often, especially given the structural constraints imposed by the Congress, you'll have to settle for one or the other. But I would be very careful about any course of action which concedes victory to Republicans on both levels. Mistakes were made along the way to health care reform, but you've paid the political price for health care: now pass the fecking thing.

As for the rest of the policies in your portfolio, take an inventory and figure out which have the votes to pass right now (through reconciliation where prudent), which can't be passed no matter what, and which could be achieved but will require some expenditure of political capital. And then on the other axis, wargame everything and figure which it would be to your benefit to have an extended public debate on (this would almost always be for political theater rather than policy reasons), which you should put up to vote, but as quickly as possible, and which ought not to see the light of day.

I know: easier said then done. But henceforth the Democrats, from the White House on downward, have gotten a remarkably poor return on the investment of their political capital. The failures are more tactical than strategic. But to do what Democrats usually do, and crawl into a shell in the face of adversity, is not advisable.​
 
I think I'm going to puke...what fanboy tripe

You're late to the game...attacking me personally ended 5 pages ago...

Most of my sources are either AP or Politico (non partisan).

I stay away from obvious partisan sources like the Huffington Post
Glad to hear it. I haven't played with Politico much.

I see you're comparing Obama to MLK. Thats a disservice to Reverend King. He slogged the miles and stumped in far away holes in the South long before he became a household name. Obama was a "community organizer" and a short term junior senator with little legislative accomplishment to his name.

I guess you must have felt his Nobel Peace Prize was deserved too right ?

No, actually you don't see that I'm comparing the lives of Obama to MLK. Suffice to say I obviously don't equate the 2 on that level, and I don't need you to lecture me on what King did. I do equate them (and Wilson) as being worthy thinkers though, with worthy ideas that I agree with, fighting the good fight vs. a cynical system to seem them realized.

The Nobel Prize was weird. Not his fault, and no I don't reckon he deserved it.

You're wearing me out.
 
Glad to hear it. I haven't played with Politico much.



No, actually you don't see that I'm comparing the lives of Obama to MLK. Suffice to say I obviously don't equate the 2 on that level, and I don't need you to lecture me on what King did. I do equate them (and Wilson) as being worthy thinkers though, with worthy ideas that I agree with, fighting the good fight vs. a cynical system to seem them realized.

The Nobel Prize was weird. Not his fault, and no I don't reckon he deserved it.

You're wearing me out.

You see no cynicism in the closed door/backroom deals/chicago style politics employed by the one you hold in such high esteem though right ?

Tunnel visioned and starry eyed cult followers have a unique way of looking past things....
 
looks like the Messiah is capitulating....


Obama to Dems: Don't jam through health care bill

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is telling Democrats not to "jam" a health care overhaul bill through Congress, instead urging them to coalesce around popular parts of the bill.

In an interview with ABC News, Obama said Wednesday that Congress must wait for newly elected Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown to be sworn into office before lawmakers move forward.

Brown won his election Tuesday to fill the seat long occupied by the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy. Brown will end the super-majority that would have allowed Democrats to pass Obama's top domestic priority over united opposition from Republicans.

Brown campaigned against the proposed health care overhaul.
 
You see no cynicism in the closed door/backroom deals/chicago style politics employed by the one you hold in such high esteem though right ?

Tunnel visioned and starry eyed cult followers have a unique way of looking past things....

Newsflash - Closed door backroom deals are the way compromises are achieved in Washington. That's nothing new. Anyone who has a clue about Washington politics will tell you this.
 
looks like the Messiah is capitulating....


Obama to Dems: Don't jam through health care bill

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is telling Democrats not to "jam" a health care overhaul bill through Congress, instead urging them to coalesce around popular parts of the bill.

In an interview with ABC News, Obama said Wednesday that Congress must wait for newly elected Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown to be sworn into office before lawmakers move forward.

Brown won his election Tuesday to fill the seat long occupied by the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy. Brown will end the super-majority that would have allowed Democrats to pass Obama's top domestic priority over united opposition from Republicans.

Brown campaigned against the proposed health care overhaul.

It is a sound idea politically.It will give the Dems a good excuse when they dont pass a good healthcare bill when they just blame it on the GOP. If they were to just push a shitty bill thorough a lot of them would be in a lot of trouble next time elections came around.
 
Newsflash - Closed door backroom deals are the way compromises are achieved in Washington. That's nothing new. Anyone who has a clue about Washington politics will tell you this.


What happened to "openness", "a new dawn", "change"....was it all bullshit ?

What happened to C-Span covering the healthcare deliberations ?

If it were Republicans doing this you would be howling
 
What happened to "openness", "a new dawn", "change"....was it all bullshit ?

What happened to C-Span covering the healthcare deliberations ?

If it were Republicans doing this you would be howling

No i wouldn't because i would know that making populist comments about transparency and openness don't lend themselves towards getting things done in DC. I'm not interested in watching C-SPAN so that every provision in the health care bill can be paralyzed by analysis. Obama was absolutely right in trying to fast track the bill behind closed doors in order to ensure its passage. His failure was that he allowed his opponents to define the narrative rather than doing an adequate job of defining it himself.
 
No i wouldn't because i would know that making populist comments about transparency and openness don't lend themselves towards getting things done in DC. I'm not interested in watching C-SPAN so that every provision in the health care bill can be paralyzed by analysis. Obama was absolutely right in trying to fast track the bill behind closed doors in order to ensure its passage. His failure was that he allowed his opponents to define the narrative rather than doing an adequate job of defining it himself.

So Obama was right in lying essentially, funny you would have thought that he would have learned from Bush, that once people catch on you lose your credibility and their trust.
 
No i wouldn't because i would know that making populist comments about transparency and openness don't lend themselves towards getting things done in DC. I'm not interested in watching C-SPAN so that every provision in the health care bill can be paralyzed by analysis. Obama was absolutely right in trying to fast track the bill behind closed doors in order to ensure its passage. His failure was that he allowed his opponents to define the narrative rather than doing an adequate job of defining it himself.


So, you're ok with him saying one thing during the campaign and doing the polar opposite while governing...ok


I have to give you credit though Raoul. You're in here on a bad day for democrats facing the music and standing your ground. Thats more than I can say for some of your more vociferous RedCafer's who had lots to say early on in this discussion but seem eerily quiet today.
 
So, you're ok with him saying one thing during the campaign and doing the polar opposite while governing...ok

I'm perfectly fine with him talking out of his ass during the campaign as long he supports the policies i think are important for the country, and is willing to implement them once in office. I never bought into his hype - only his substance. Therefore knowing how business gets done in DC, I can't say i'm disappointed. This is the reality of our system.

I have to give you credit though Raoul. You're in here on a bad day for democrats facing the music and standing your ground. Thats more than I can say for some of your more vociferous RedCafer's who had lots to say early on in this discussion but seem eerily quiet today.

Its just another day here, as i'm not one to get wrapped around the axle of the media hype regarding Brown's victory. At the end of the day he gets one vote that will give the Republicans an extra bit of leverage, but that doesn't mean Obama is out of options on health care. I think he Pelosi and Reid are going to find a creative way to push this thing through.
 
I'm perfectly fine with him talking out of his ass during the campaign as long he supports the policies i think are important for the country, and is willing to implement them once in office. I never bought into his hype - only his substance. Therefore knowing how business gets done in DC, I can't say i'm disappointed. This is the reality of our system.



Its just another day here, as i'm not one to get wrapped around the axle of the media hype regarding Brown's victory. At the end of the day he gets one vote that will give the Republicans an extra bit of leverage, but that doesn't mean Obama is out of options on health care. I think he Pelosi and Reid are going to find a creative way to push this thing through.


If you think its media hype, then you're wearing the same blinders Brad has on.
 
You seem to want to ignore the fact that Obamas performance so far will bleed off members of his own party when it comes time for future votes. One year into his presidency, and he's already resembling a lame duck.

I wouldn't go as far as that he is managing to push through Congress one of the most controversial pieces of legislation since who knows when, the one thing he could in reality pursue that could be so controversial, if he were a lame duck he wouldn't be able to pass anything but he would pass just about anything else but this.
 
If you think its media hype, then you're wearing the same blinders Brad has on.

Let's be clear. The election yesterday is something that happens in many mid term election years. The public are restless with the incumbency and tend to vote in members of the opposition party. People make a big deal out of it because it was Massachusetts - the so called "bluest of the blue states", but let's not forget - 40% of Mass registered voters are Independents. Brown captured a large number of them. This is the same story as what has happened in the past. Last time around it was the Dems who knocked off the Republicans in 2006, and of course there's the famous Republican sweep of 1994. The point being, this is not special. Its routine. It happens all the time in American politics.
 
Let's be clear. The election yesterday is something that happens in many mid term election years. The public are restless with the incumbency and tend to vote in members of the opposition party. People make a big deal out of it because it was Massachusetts - the so called "bluest of the blue states", but let's not forget - 40% of Mass registered voters are Independents. Brown captured a large number of them. This is the same story as what has happened in the past. Last time around it was the Dems who knocked off the Republicans in 2006, and of course there's the famous Republican sweep of 1994. The point being, this is not special. Its routine. It happens all the time in American politics.

You keep spouting the same shite...funny how dems in power disagree with you in terms of the significance of yesterdays vote. This isn't simple dynamics of a midterm election...its a repudiation of the country's direction and has led to a sudden conciliatory tone from the Great One himself.
 
I wouldn't go as far as that he is managing to push through Congress one of the most controversial pieces of legislation since who knows when, the one thing he could in reality pursue that could be so controversial, if he were a lame duck he wouldn't be able to pass anything but he would pass just about anything else but this.

cap and trade is dead

meaningful healthcare reform is dead

anything that has even a remote whiff of liberalism to it won't make it to the floor for a vote.

Now we might see some bipartisanship. The arrogance of the "mandate" evaporated yesterday...time to get down to some reasonable center right governance.
 
You keep spouting the same shite...funny how dems in power disagree with you in terms of the significance of yesterdays vote. This isn't simple dynamics of a midterm election...its a repudiation of the country's direction and has led to a sudden conciliatory tone from the Great One himself.

They're saying that because they have to in order to not appear apathetic to the public's mood. No sane Democrat is going to come across as anything other than conciliatory, just as the Republicans did following the mid terms in 2006. Same old thing.
 
I wouldn't go as far as that he is managing to push through Congress one of the most controversial pieces of legislation since who knows when, the one thing he could in reality pursue that could be so controversial, if he were a lame duck he wouldn't be able to pass anything but he would pass just about anything else but this.

Clearly Obama isn't a lame duck at this point. Its more Republican spin designed to inflate the relevance of yesterday's election for political gain. He's in an excellent position to continue carrying out his agenda.
 
Clearly Obama isn't a lame duck at this point. Its more Republican spin designed to inflate the relevance of yesterday's election for political gain. He's in an excellent position to continue carrying out his agenda.

yep, his ability to drive through legislation is definitely improved since yesterday. In fact, he has had so much success so far, its easy to see that yesterdays result means that passing his agenda is just a formality now :wenger:
 
They're saying that because they have to in order to not appear apathetic to the public's mood. No sane Democrat is going to come across as anything other than conciliatory

Yup, you're right....dems are just saying stuff to appease the public...they have no intention to scale back their agenda...

Oh ! wait a minute ! whats this here....good heavens !

WASHINGTON – Chastened by the Democratic Senate loss in Massachusetts, President Barack Obama and congressional allies signaled Wednesday they will try to scale back his sweeping health care overhaul in an effort to at least keep parts of it alive.

A simpler, less ambitious bill emerged as an alternative only hours after the loss of the party's crucial 60th Senate seat forced the Democrats to slow their all-out drive to pass Obama's signature legislation and reconsider all options.

No decisions have been made, lawmakers said, but they laid out a new approach that could still include these provisions: limiting the ability of insurance companies to deny coverage to people with medical problems, allowing young adults to stay on their parents' policies, helping small businesses and low-income people pay premiums and changing Medicare to encourage payment for quality care instead of sheer volume of services.

Obama urged lawmakers not to try to jam a bill through, but scale the proposal down to what he called "those elements of the package that people agree on."



:lol::lol::lol:

Come on Raoul, give me something else I can shoot down....
 
yep, his ability to drive through legislation is definitely improved since yesterday. In fact, he has had so much success so far, its easy to see that yesterdays result means that passing his agenda is just a formality now :wenger:

Take off the right wing goggles for a minute. Obama still has massive majorities in both chambers of Congress. He still has the ability to push through his agenda and even break Republican obstructionism (aka a Filibuster) by picking off one or two GOP votes.
 
Yup, you're right....dems are just saying stuff to appease the public...they have no intention to scale back their agenda...

Oh ! wait a minute ! whats this here....good heavens !

WASHINGTON – Chastened by the Democratic Senate loss in Massachusetts, President Barack Obama and congressional allies signaled Wednesday they will try to scale back his sweeping health care overhaul in an effort to at least keep parts of it alive.

A simpler, less ambitious bill emerged as an alternative only hours after the loss of the party's crucial 60th Senate seat forced the Democrats to slow their all-out drive to pass Obama's signature legislation and reconsider all options.

No decisions have been made, lawmakers said, but they laid out a new approach that could still include these provisions: limiting the ability of insurance companies to deny coverage to people with medical problems, allowing young adults to stay on their parents' policies, helping small businesses and low-income people pay premiums and changing Medicare to encourage payment for quality care instead of sheer volume of services.

Obama urged lawmakers not to try to jam a bill through, but scale the proposal down to what he called "those elements of the package that people agree on."



:lol::lol::lol:

Come on Raoul, give me something else I can shoot down....

You just proved my point. I said he had to say it in order to appease the mood of the public, and he did. If you can't understand this simple fact, then you need to do a bit of research on media narratives and how legislation in DC is passed.
 
You just proved my point. I said he had to say it in order to appease the mood of the public, and he did. If you can't understand this simple fact, then you need to do a bit of research on media narratives and how legislation in DC is passed.

saying one thing to appease the public is one thing...changing your agenda and scaling back legislation is stark realization of reality.

Obama is paring back his signature legislative effort...if you think that is just window dressing, you're deluded.
 
saying one thing to appease the public is one thing...changing your agenda and scaling back legislation is stark realization of reality.

Obama is paring back his signature legislative effort...if you think that is just window dressing, you're deluded.

Can you cite a specific area where he has changed his agenda ?
 
Can you cite a specific area where he has changed his agenda ?


yes, healthcare...read the headlines today and see if what he now proposes jives with the original goal....or is healthcare reform in name only good enough for you ?

I suppose politically, for fanboys thats enough so that coffee table debates can be won.

Guantanamo is another....

Since this thread demonstrates my mastery at predicting the future, I'll give you another....cap and trade is DOA
 
RufRT, I presume you agree that the state has an obligation to ensure certain things are provided for all their citizens; things like security, water, food, education etc. Do you not consider good quality health care to be one of these things the state is obliged to provide, and if not, why not?

From my perspective, admittedly someone who has lived their life in a country with healthcare available for all and free at the point of service, it seems very cruel to have medical treatment based on the wealth of the individual. How is that ethical?
 
yes, healthcare...read the headlines today and see if what he now proposes jives with the original goal....or is healthcare reform in name only good enough for you ?

The only thing you've proven in this thread is what an abject Muppet you are.

As for health care: No decisions have been made according to the news. After all, its been less than 24 hours. There are multiple options on the table for Obama at this stage. Having the house pass the Senate version is one of them, as is passing the bill minus the more objectionable parts.
 
RufRT, I presume you agree that the state has an obligation to ensure certain things are provided for all their citizens; things like security, water, food, education etc. Do you not consider good quality health care to be one of these things the state is obliged to provide, and if not, why not?

From my perspective, admittedly someone who has lived their life in a country with healthcare available for all and free at the point of service, it seems very cruel to have medical treatment based on the wealth of the individual. How is that ethical?

Its the standard trickle down mentality of the Republican crowd. They don't want substantive health care reform because their deregulated free-market political platform is in bed with the medical and insurance industries. The day to day needs of every day people aren't significant to them.
 
The only thing you've proven in this thread is what an abject Muppet you are.

As for health care: No decisions have been made according to the news. After all, its been less than 24 hours. There are multiple options on the table for Obama at this stage. Having the house pass the Senate version is one of them, as is passing the bill minus the more objectionable parts.


now now, you've done well to control your disappointment to this point....don't lose control now.
 
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