Royal Marine found guilty of Afghanistan murder

[Stobzilla]

Pre meditated. Murder.

I've had friends out there who have come back completely different people so there is no question it is hard but it being hard isn't an excuse. Some people snap due to the pressures of day to day life and they are seen too accordingly. It all comes down to the individual threshold as to when you step over the line but if you do and subsequently break the law then you should be punished as such.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

You really are clueless to what it was like out there. This wasn't a game of COD they were playing.
Their lives were on the line every minute of every day they were out on patrol. Try spending 6 months walking through a minefield with your mates, being engaged in firefights for good measure, throw in searing heat, lack of sleep, severe under manning, then come back and tell me it's utter bollox.

So what you're saying is anyone in a warzone has free reign to do anything because they're in a warzone and they're pyschologically weak? I suppose we should be pretty leniant on ISIS members on that basis. ISIS members should probably be sent on holiday camps on that basis right?

You're essentially making a case for the complete lack of any personal responibility on the basis of it 'being a hard job'. If that's your attitude as a parent you probably shouldn't have had children. If your child really is too precious for this world.

I'll say right now that you're disingenous individual for your agenda!

 

[Dobba]

Well I am the first to admit I have a bias. My son was a Royal Marine, I have friends who lost their sons, others whose sons or husbands suffered life changing injuries. I know the mental state some of those lads were in when they returned from tours, one friend's son took his own life. Do you know how the MOD ascertained their state of mind after a tour? They took them to Cyprus for 48hours (if they were lucky).

All that being said after hearing all the evidence over the last 3 years I believe that Al was mentally ill at the time of the incident and therefore guilty of manslaughter but not murder.

Ah, so your claims of 'biased commentary' was merely projection. Makes sense.

 

[Penna]

So what you're saying is anyone in a warzone has free reign to do anything because they're in a warzone and they're pyschologically weak? I suppose we should be pretty leniant on ISIS members on that basis. ISIS members should probably be sent on holiday camps on that basis right?

You're essentially making a case for the complete lack of any personal responibility on the basis of it 'being a hard job'. If that's your attitude as a parent you probably shouldn't have had children. If your child really is too precious for this world.

I'll say right now that you're disingenous individual for your agenda!

That's very uncalled-for and a terrible thing to say.

 

[Red Diva]

So what you're saying is anyone in a warzone has free reign to do anything because they're in a warzone and they're pyschologically weak? I suppose we should be pretty leniant on ISIS members on that basis. ISIS members should probably be sent on holiday camps on that basis right?

You're essentially making a case for the complete lack of any personal responibility on the basis of it 'being a hard job'. If that's your attitude as a parent you probably shouldn't have had children. If your child really is too precious for this world.

I'll say right now that you're disingenous individual for your agenda!

You are really being obtuse. Where have I ever said people in a war zone have a free reign? If you are unable to understand that continued stress over a prolonged period can affect some individuals adversely then so be it.

My parenting skills are absolutely fine thank you and my two children grew up to be fine human beings, whom I am immensely proud of. Sadly, yes, my son was too precious for this world...

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

So what you're saying is anyone in a warzone has free reign to do anything because they're in a warzone and they're pyschologically weak? I suppose we should be pretty leniant on ISIS members on that basis. ISIS members should probably be sent on holiday camps on that basis right?

You're essentially making a case for the complete lack of any personal responibility on the basis of it 'being a hard job'. If that's your attitude as a parent you probably shouldn't have had children. If your child really is too precious for this world.

I'll say right now that you're disingenous individual for your agenda!

I don't agree with RedDiva on this one but you've no need to attack her personally. I hope you'll agree the warning points are deserved.

 

[Witchking]

You are really being obtuse. Where have I ever said people in a war zone have a free reign? If you are unable to understand that continued stress over a prolonged period can affect some individuals adversely then so be it.

My parenting skills are absolutely fine thank you and my two children grew up to be fine human beings, whom I am immensely proud of. Sadly, yes, my son was too precious for this world...

Your rationalizing seems to be wrong on this one. Sorry for your loss.

 

[Kentonio]

Well I am the first to admit I have a bias. My son was a Royal Marine, I have friends who lost their sons, others whose sons or husbands suffered life changing injuries. I know the mental state some of those lads were in when they returned from tours, one friend's son took his own life. Do you know how the MOD ascertained their state of mind after a tour? They took them to Cyprus for 48hours (if they were lucky).

All that being said after hearing all the evidence over the last 3 years I believe that Al was mentally ill at the time of the incident and therefore guilty of manslaughter but not murder.

Ah, if you're arguing for manslaughter over murder, then I can see your point (although I'm divided over whether I agree with it). Apologies, I thought you were one of the 'he did nothing wrong' crowd I keep seeing on social media.

Also very sorry for your loss.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

 

[Dobba]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

Exactly. We could cut the defence budget and have the armed forces making that sweet YouTube money sticking videos of beheading/boiling alive captured ISIS fighters online.

 

[Kentonio]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

You mean so that the Taliban can show normal Afghans pictures of Afghanis that have been murdered/tortured by western soldiers, making it much easier to recruit new Taliban soldiers?

Not to mention the psychological effect of course. Or maybe you aren't worried about British squaddies returning to the UK having carried out senseless acts of horrific violence just because they felt like it?

British soldiers are held to a higher standard because a) we need as a country to be able to claim a moral position if we ever expect to lecture other countries on human rights and b) because those young soldiers are going to come home one day.

 

[oates]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

Because these days we'd like people to think that we are different. Wasn't always the case I suppose.

 

[Witchking]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

You are talking about a group of people who do not follow any conventions or give a damn about any rules. US and UK are bound by those rules and should obey them at any cost. It would only be right for your soldiers to follow the rules of warfare.

 

[Red Diva]

Your rationalizing seems to be wrong on this one. Sorry for your loss.

It's not my rationalising, three independent psychiatrists diagnosed him with a mental illness.

"Factors taken into account by the judges included:

• Blackman had not received full pre-deployment training; he had to take time out of training because of his father’s death.
• There was powerful evidence that members of the team under Blackman’s command were always on edge and did not feel safe at night.
• CP Omar, where the team was based, was under constant external threat during summer months and difficult to reach safely.
• The team had been hardest hit by the insurgents; they were losing ground and were combat-weary.
• The team at CP Omar was undermanned; the previous team had numbered 25; the team under the appellant was 16.
• The team was required to patrol between five and 10 hours a day over rough ground in heat that was normally over 50C when carrying a minimum of 100lb of equipment. They should not have done morning and evening patrols, but were sometimes required to do this because of the manpower shortage.
• The men became physically tired, particularly at times of illness or insurgent activity. Blackman was in particular deprived of sleep.
• Ambushes by insurgents and the threat of explosive devices were constant.
• The insurgents had inflicted severe casualties and treated dead bodies callously.
• Blackman regarded himself as responsible for his troops, particularly those with children (the appellant had none); he therefore undertook more patrols and risks to himself so that his troops could all get home safely.
• Blackman regarded himself as easily identifiable and targeted by the insurgents. About a month before the killing two grenades were thrown at the appellant by insurgents while he was talking to Afghan civilians outside the camp. The grenades fell into a nearby drainage ditch which funnelled the blast upwards, saving his life.
• The finding of the wounded Taliban fighter with a grenade may have triggered a memory of a recent attack when grenades were thrown at the patrol."

 

[Tarrou]

Not that I'd know but a lot of those things seem to be the sort of thing I'd expect a marine to have to put up with.

What mental illness was he diagnosed with?

 

[Red Diva]

You mean so that the Taliban can show normal Afghans pictures of Afghanis that have been murdered/tortured by western soldiers, making it much easier to recruit new Taliban soldiers?

Not to mention the psychological effect of course. Or maybe you aren't worried about British squaddies returning to the UK having carried out senseless acts of horrific violence just because they felt like it?

British soldiers are held to a higher standard because a) we need as a country to be able to claim a moral position if we ever expect to lecture other countries on human rights and b) because those young soldiers are going to come home one day.

What pictures of western soldiers torturing and murdering Afghanis? Is there any proof of this or are you just spouting a general public assumption that this is what they were doing? What senseless acts of horrific violence perpetrated by British Forces?
The British Forces operated a Hearts and Minds policy, they built roads, schools, gave medical attention to the locals. The lads were ordered not to shoot if children were in the vicinity, the Taliban knew this and used them as shields.

What about pictures of Afghanis (including children) that the Taliban murdered and tortured (and there were many of those)? Pictures of school girl's faces that the Taliban threw acid over for daring to go to school?

Yes, the British Forces do have to be held to a higher standard than the insurgents.

 

[Kentonio]

What pictures of western soldiers torturing and murdering Afghanis? Is there any proof of this or are you just spouting a general public assumption that this is what they were doing? What senseless acts of horrific violence perpetrated by British Forces?
The British Forces operated a Hearts and Minds policy, they built roads, schools, gave medical attention to the locals. The lads were ordered not to shoot if children were in the vicinity, the Taliban knew this and used them as shields.

What about pictures of Afghanis (including children) that the Taliban murdered and tortured (and there were many of those)? Pictures of school girl's faces that the Taliban threw acid over for daring to go to school?

Yes, the British Forces do have to be held to a higher standard than the insurgents.

It was a response about what the inevitable result would be if we followed the other posters suggestion of 'taking the gloves off' and acting towards the Taliban how they act towards us. It wasn't an attack on British soldiers.

 

[Red Diva]

Not that I'd know but a lot of those things seem to be the sort of thing I'd expect a marine to have to put up with.

What mental illness was he diagnosed with?

Seriously?

He was diagnosed with Adjustment Disorder.

 

[Red Diva]

It was a response about what the inevitable result would be if we followed the other posters suggestion of 'taking the gloves off' and acting towards the Taliban how they act towards us. It wasn't an attack on British soldiers.

Ah right, my apologies.

 

[Tarrou]

Seriously?

He was diagnosed with Adjustment Disorder.

Yeah. If I joined the marines I'd fully expect to be have to cover lots of ground, become physically tired, and feel like I was in danger at certain points.

 

[oates]

Yeah. If I joined the marines I'd fully expect to be have to cover lots of ground, become physically tired, and feel like I was in danger at certain points.

Every day, all day, on watch, off watch. For weeks. Months. Shorthanded constantly.

I mean, obviously I don't know you but perhaps you are/were a marine?

 

[Red Diva]

Yeah. If I joined the marines I'd fully expect to be have to cover lots of ground, become physically tired, and feel like I was in danger at certain points.

Danger of death or life changing injuries, 24/7 for six months solid?

They certainly cover plenty of ground and become physically tired during training. The recruits are known as Nods, because they are always nodding off due to exhaustion.

 

[Tarrou]

Every day, all day, on watch, off watch. For weeks. Months. Shorthanded constantly.

I mean, obviously I don't know you but perhaps you are/were a marine?

No, but I have a good friend who was one and he definitely came back from one of his tours a changed man. I'm under no illusion that it isn't an extremely stressful job.

I'm not really arguing for/against the reduced sentence here because I think it's too complex for me to make a judgement. I'm just saying, some of those mitigating circumstances are to be expected in the role and what they are trained for.

 

[oates]

No, but I have a good friend who was one and he definitely came back from one of his tours a changed man. I'm under no illusion that it isn't an extremely stressful job.

I'm not really arguing for/against the reduced sentence here because I think it's too complex for me to make a judgement. I'm just saying, some of those mitigating circumstances are to be expected in the role and what they are trained for.

I guess some of them are.

 

[oates]

Danger of death or life changing injuries, 24/7 for six months solid?

They certainly cover plenty of ground and become physically tired during training. The recruits are known as Nods, because they are always nodding off due to exhaustion.

Actually I'm quite surprised that poor and unserviceable equipment wasn't listed for a change.

 

[Tarrou]

Danger of death or life changing injuries, 24/7 for six months solid?

They certainly cover plenty of ground and become physically tired during training. The recruits are known as Nods, because they are always nodding off due to exhaustion.

The guy was depressed and I fully agree that was a mitigating circumstance, but being in danger is part and parcel of his job. By definition every person bound by the geneva convention is in a dangerous situation.

 

[oates]

The guy was depressed and I fully agree that was a mitigating circumstance, but being in danger is part and parcel of his job. By definition every person bound by the geneva convention is in a dangerous situation.

Have you heard of PTSD @ Tarrou or are you of the belief that servicemen shouldn't suffer from it bearing in mind that Depression and Anxiety are frequently part of the disorder?

 

[Silva]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

That's not how any set of laws work. Your neighbour pissing on your front door doesn't give you right of retribution.

 

[Tarrou]

Have you heard of PTSD @ Tarrou or are you of the belief that servicemen shouldn't suffer from it bearing in mind that Depression and Anxiety are frequently part of the disorder?

Yes, I've heard of it, and I've already stated that I agree his depression was a mitigating circumstance.

I'm just saying if we start to use 'danger' as a mitigating circumstance for breaking the geneva convention, then what is the point of having it at all? Everyone in a conflict could use that excuse for randomly deciding who lives and dies on any given day.

 

[oates]

Yes, I've heard of it, and I've already stated that I agree his depression was a mitigating circumstance.

I'm just saying if we start to use 'danger' as a mitigating circumstance for breaking the geneva convention, then what is the point of having it at all? Everyone in a conflict could use that excuse for randomly deciding who lives and dies on any given day.

I don't think anyone is using it either as an excuse or as the one single reason in this situation are they?

 

[Tarrou]

I don't think anyone is using it either as an excuse or as the one single reason in this situation are they?

No, but then, I didn't suggest anyone was.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Isn't the point of the Geneva Convention that both sides obey it?

The Taliban et al couldn't care less about it and I don't see the rest of the world jumping in to punish them every time they disobey it, so what's the point in it in this case, why is it applicable to our soldiers when fighting them? Surely the gloves are off.

...when lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom, the gentler gamester is the soonest winner

As above.

 

[oates]

No, but then, I didn't suggest anyone was.

But then you don't see a connection between being in danger, dangerous situations constantly for a prolonged period as a contributory factor towards how his depression could lead him to 'break' the Geneva Convention whereas I could given the additional mitigating circumstances of being short on sleep, not eating regularly, perhaps carrying an injury and more on top of all of the factors taken into account.

 

[Tarrou]

But then you don't see a connection between being in danger, dangerous situations constantly for a prolonged period as a contributory factor towards how his depression could lead him to 'break' the Geneva Convention whereas I could given the additional mitigating circumstances of being short on sleep, not eating regularly, perhaps carrying an injury and more on top of all of the factors taken into account.

Yeah, I agree those are likely factors in his illness. He had situational depression so a prominent factor could have been the death of his father, but it's impossible to say for sure.

The way I read it the list was mitigating factors for his actions, not reasons why he became sick - which sets a bit of a precedent don't you think?

Now every lawyer defending a case like this can point to this long list of circumstances to help get their client off, one of which is, by definition, required for the geneva convention to even be applicable.

 

[oates]

Yeah, I agree those are likely factors in his illness. He had situational depression so a prominent factor could have been the death of his father, but it's impossible to say for sure.

The way I read it the list was mitigating factors for his actions, not reasons why he became sick - which sets a bit of a precedent don't you think?

Now every lawyer defending a case like this can point to this long list of circumstances to help get their client off, one of which is, by definition, required for the geneva convention to even be applicable.

I think it would need a list of that nature but it would be a quite unique list as Blackman and his team weren't operating under what is called normal but would be quite abnormal circumstances for any non-elite troops being undermanned. When you start talking about whether he should be expected to go through danger as that is what the service is all about and then note that it is undergone in extreme circumstances, then the one, constant danger imposed on someone already depressed from family circumstances could quite easily lead to the other PTSD or more simply stress while we have no idea when or if he was able to get any relief. Blackman was particularly deprived of sleep, and he regarded himself as responsible for his men's safety and therefore undertook more patrols then they did. It isn't going to be a list that every one will get to enjoy.

 

[Red Diva]

Yeah, I agree those are likely factors in his illness. He had situational depression so a prominent factor could have been the death of his father, but it's impossible to say for sure.

The way I read it the list was mitigating factors for his actions, not reasons why he became sick - which sets a bit of a precedent don't you think?

Now every lawyer defending a case like this can point to this long list of circumstances to help get their client off, one of which is, by definition, required for the geneva convention to even be applicable.

It wasn't a list of circumstances drafted by the lawyers but the Judge summing up the main points why Al Blackman became mentally ill (and diagnosed as such by three expert psychiatrists) towards the end of this particular tour. He had done numerous other tours with no incident.

The doctors said he was ill, the Judges after hearing the evidence said he was ill, the prosecution accepted that he was mentally ill - just the Caf in their wisdom know better.

 

[Tarrou]

It wasn't a list of circumstances drafted by the lawyers but the Judge summing up the main points why Al Blackman became mentally ill (and diagnosed as such by three expert psychiatrists) towards the end of this particular tour. He had done numerous other tours with no incident.

The doctors said he was ill, the Judges after hearing the evidence said he was ill, the prosecution accepted that he was mentally ill - just the Caf in their wisdom know better.

OK, fair enough. That makes sense. You didn't quite present it as such at first hence my confusion.

Strange they don't list his fathers death explicitly as one, but rather it's just given as a reason why he missed some training.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Fairly certain he's a murderer, myself.

 

[Chorley1974]

My brother suffered from PTSD whilst he was still in the army, for sure it could have affected his decision making in the combat zone. Clearly a lot on here have no understanding of the stress of being in a combat zone, and the repercussions in that, and everyday life.

 

[Fearless]

Fairly certain he's a murderer, myself.

Well at least you sleep safe at night.