Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

So many people in this thread clearly never watched Ronaldo pre-injuries
 
If Luis did not have the injuries and had the professionalism of Cristiano, he would have been the better player. He could have been the best player of all time, maybe even better than Messi.

However, in our universe Luis had problems, had a bad diet, drank alcohol and was a party animal. Career wise, it is not even a question that Cristiano had the better career. Peak wise, Cristiano was better but Luis was more exciting (although Ronaldinho was even more exciting).
 
phelans shorts said:
The most important factor in these discussions should always be who was so good they’d convince you to buy a ticket, and it’s the Brazilian. He did some ludicrous things.
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You’re not giving enough credit to Cristiano here. He was the reason why so many people watched us at our very best years. At his very best for United he was probably one of the most entertaining players the world has seen. There’s a reason a full stadium in Madrid paid just to see his presentation.

The weird thing is people here would seem to rate Cristiano more if he just stayed as a tricky winger until his legs fell off.

 
giorno said:
We never saw Ronaldo's peak, that's the thing. What we call his peak was him at age 20-21, because due to injury that's the best he's ever had the chance to be

If we're comparing 96-98 Ronaldo with 2011-2015 Cristiano, i'd say it's close, but Ronnie had a terror factor to him Cristiano didn't have. Cristiano was however maybe better for a great team, whereas Ronaldo was the team
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I actually agree with you, R9 has a terror factor during his short peak very few could match, whereas Cristiano, I think most didn’t realize his good his peak really was, we probably won’t see another player who would share his stats/performance/consistency during his peak anytime soon.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Maybe only for a season or 2.

R9 isn't consistently top goalscorer n the game throughout his career - Bierhoff, Makaay, Forlan, Eto'o, Ruud, Henry etc has all outscored him during most of his fully fit best seaons (except his peak season). Plus he is also not fit enough to last long or keep his top form.

He only had 1 truly out of the world season, 96-97, and another amazing season in Italy 97-98, and people tends to romanticise it and imagine he would repeat for many seasons afterwards if he maintain his fitness and peak form.

96-97 - 47 goals in 49 games (truly out of the world season in Barca, at his very peak. If we put this version of R9 in todays Barca/Real, he would have reached 50-60 goals for sure)
97-98 - 34 goals in 47 games (his 2nd most amazing season in Inter, but Bierhoff still outscored him in the league)
03-04: 31 goals in 48 games (his 3rd-4th best season as world class player in Real Madrid, but same season Henry scored 39 goals in PL, and outperforming him too)
02-03: 30 goals in 44 games (his 3rd-4th best season as world class player in Real Madrid, but same season Ruud scored 44 goals in PL)
94-95: 35 goals in 36 games (it was amazing season for a youngster, but it was only Dutch league. The year after R9 left, Nilis scored 31 goals there, then Machlas scored 34 there too. And then followed by Ruud scoring 41 goals there too)

Relatively speaking and based on the above, he would only manage Messi/Ronaldo type of season (scoring 50-60 goals) once in his career if he repeat his 96-97 form, even if he is playing for today's Barca or Real.
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Completely agree. There is a lot of rewriting of history in this thread.
 
Better player Ronaldo, not even close competition. He was a one man army in attack being unplayable and scaring the best defences and defenders doing the impossible and wondering how he did that.

Better career and consistency Cristiano.

Reinvented his game to turn into a goal machine and won 5 CL being key in all of them and somehow convincing people he was as good or better than Messi even though it was never really close.

Fair Play to Cristiano, he was determined to compete with Messi when talent wise he didn't have any right to be in the conversation and won 4 Balon d'Or against Messi which is an incredible achievement to do.

I would say Ronaldo was definitely better than Cristiano as peak for peak Cristiano is not close, however judging their total careers and adding everything up I would put Cristiano ahead of Ronaldo in a debate for greatest.
 
The complete disregard for Cristiano’s talent and skill in this thread is pretty unbelievable.

Yes, the guy is a total twat but at his peak he was good enough to be at times considered the best in the world (while competing with Messi!), he easily out scored anything R9 achieved and he did it for way longer, while also evolving his game in the process to move from the wing to a striker.

how is this even a debate?
 
MyOnlySolskjaer said:
You’re not giving enough credit to Cristiano here. He was the reason why so many people watched us at our very best years. At his very best for United he was probably one of the most entertaining players the world has seen. There’s a reason a full stadium in Madrid paid just to see his presentation.

The weird thing is people here would seem to rate Cristiano more if he just stayed as a tricky winger until his legs fell off.

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Until 2008 you would, after that not so much. 2008/09 season was when he became the workmanlike player he did, could easily argue 2007 was his peak entertainment wise with that goal at Craven Cottage being the peak.

If he’d stayed a tricky winger he’d definitely have been more entertainment value, probably wouldn’t have had the level of success he did.
 
FrantikChicken said:
The complete disregard for Cristiano’s talent and skill in this thread is pretty unbelievable.

Yes, the guy is a total twat but at his peak he was good enough to be at times considered the best in the world (while competing with Messi!), he easily out scored anything R9 achieved and he did it for way longer, while also evolving his game in the process to move from the wing to a striker.

how is this even a debate?
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There's more to football than scoring goals and medals. Ronaldo played for the best teams who were the most dominant in their leagues he didn't achieve it by himself. And find me a game where prime Ronaldo(not the inconsistent winger version) took on the entire defence or where he had the whole opposition marking him which allowed space for other players. When it comes to skill, magic, play making ability and all round completeness there is too much lacking in Ronaldo's game to be even compared to messi let alone pre injury R9.

I see ronaldo being more of a hypejob media creation than one of the greatest players to have ever lived which is insane when you break down his game, as when you take away the hype, media frenzy and brand CR7 you come to understand he's more or less a more efficient Lewandonski who no one would have as the greatest of all time. When the recency bias settles and the smoke clears, you compare the ability of ronaldo to past greats he will not stand the test of time.

There's a valid argument that Ronaldo is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time, but he is nowhere near top of being one of the greatest players of all time.
 
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phelans shorts said:
Until 2008 you would, after that not so much. 2008/09 season was when he became the workmanlike player he did, could easily argue 2007 was his peak entertainment wise with that goal at Craven Cottage being the peak.

If he’d stayed a tricky winger he’d definitely have been more entertainment value, probably wouldn’t have had the level of success he did.
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Pretty much this, he converted his game to be more about goals and as a result his all-round game and influence on games diminished but as a result with drastically increased goalscoring due to being a player who gets on the end of chances.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
This. Not to mention gap between teams. Barca and Real during Messi/Cr7 era were few levels above the rest. It was only matter will day score 3,4 or 5 goals that day.
In 90s and early 2000s that gap was way smaller. Big teams needed to grind every win.

Put Ronaldo (or Maradona) in today's Barca and Real and their numbers would be on par with CR7 (and Messi).
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The fact that you actually say Maradonna would have same numbers like Ronaldo and Messi if put in the same team.

Im sure you need to add Beckenbauer too.
 
Cristiano better career bit Ronaldo better peak

I feel Brazilian Ronaldo will be remembered more fondly as some sort of legendary figure whilst Cristiano may be remembered as a great too but has more negatives attached
 
Brwned said:
Yeah, I mean you can’t really mention the lack of success at his peak without adding the context. In 97-98 he finished 5 points behind Juve and was frequently compared to Del Piero as the two best attackers in the league, and arguably the world. Del Piero had Deschamps, Davids, Conte and Zidane behind him, Ronaldo had Ze Elias, Winter, Simeone and Djorkaeff behind him. That’s a huge gap. Cristiano only ever had a similar situation at the beginning and end of his career, and he was similarly unsuccessful. I don’t think there’s much evidence to suggest he could turn a functional team into a successful team when up against a team of superstars.
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The context point is one of the problems when these kinds of discussions are held. Factors like the players around them, the teams they competed against, and the roles the players had within said teams are sidelined and ignored. It just becomes a situation where people wiki seasons and tally up the amount of goals scored
 
Personal preference but I would take R9 over R7 any day in my team. In fact I have R9 in my all time starting 11 and not R7.
 
FrantikChicken said:
The complete disregard for Cristiano’s talent and skill in this thread is pretty unbelievable.

Yes, the guy is a total twat but at his peak he was good enough to be at times considered the best in the world (while competing with Messi!), he easily out scored anything R9 achieved and he did it for way longer, while also evolving his game in the process to move from the wing to a striker.

how is this even a debate?
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Because football doesnt begin and end with CR7 and Messi. These two have had consistency, longevity ( both due to modern football sports science, rules of game favouring attacker, better surfaces and the rize of galactico teams) and their fair share of luck not to get seriously injured.

CR7 and Messi are products of their generation. You really cant compare different generations of footballers, but as fans we like to.

R9 pre ACL injuries was the closest we've had to a modern day Pele and theres been no-one like pre ACL R9 since.
 
Kablamo said:
Romanticised nonsense. That's all the R9 fanfare is.

This thread is full of men in their mid to late thirties, harking back to a time when they were pre-pubescent boys who fell in love with a footballer and reached their sexual maturity with him. They shared his journey, they saved his Nike Airport video onto their C: Drive, or a 3.5 inch disc if they had WinZip. They won't hear or see any argument against him because no other footballer makes them feel that way.

I saw the same types trying to sneak him into the Top 5 of All Time list. That is absolute madness and nothing to do with footballing ability or achievement. This is all because their bodies ache for him. They yearn for those times again, and for the way he touched them through their adolescent years.

In terms of 90's Serie A forwads, I'm taking Batistuta every day of the week.

And forget what Ronaldo did at Barcelona, I remember Baltazar and Toni Polster going to La Liga and rattling them in for fun.

Cristiano Ronaldo is on a different level to the Brazilian one.
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Beautiful post, even if it gets needlessly harsh towards the end - I mean, Toni Polster, really?

But yeah, a lot of the R9 hype is a combination of nostalgia and the 'what could have been' factor. Tragically unfulfilled potential and all that.
 
Kablamo said:
Romanticised nonsense. That's all the R9 fanfare is.

This thread is full of men in their mid to late thirties, harking back to a time when they were pre-pubescent boys who fell in love with a footballer and reached their sexual maturity with him. They shared his journey, they saved his Nike Airport video onto their C: Drive, or a 3.5 inch disc if they had WinZip. They won't hear or see any argument against him because no other footballer makes them feel that way.

I saw the same types trying to sneak him into the Top 5 of All Time list. That is absolute madness and nothing to do with footballing ability or achievement. This is all because their bodies ache for him. They yearn for those times again, and for the way he touched them through their adolescent years.

In terms of 90's Serie A forwads, I'm taking Batistuta every day of the week.

And forget what Ronaldo did at Barcelona, I remember Baltazar and Toni Polster going to La Liga and rattling them in for fun.

Cristiano Ronaldo is on a different level to the Brazilian one.
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Batistuta wouldn’t take himself over peak R9, crazy post.
 
Siorac said:
Beautiful post, even if it gets needlessly harsh towards the end - I mean, Toni Polster, really?

But yeah, a lot of the R9 hype is a combination of nostalgia and the 'what could have been' factor. Tragically unfulfilled potential and all that.
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Nothing beautiful about this post, he went the complete other way and combusted into a bunch of harsh nonsense, Batistuta over R9, yeah right... R9 still won two Ballon d’ors, 2 world cups, was the highest scorer in its history for some time, World Cup top scorer, a couple leagues and so on, he didn't fulfill his potential because it was so huge, but he still had a great career nontheless.

Most posters aren’t arguing that he had a better career than CR7, they‘re arguing that at his peak they would take him over CR7, and if you think that’s an outlandish opinion you probably never watched him at the peak of his powers!
 
dinostar77 said:
Because football doesnt begin and end with CR7 and Messi. These two have had consistency, longevity ( both due to modern football sports science, rules of game favouring attacker, better surfaces and the rize of galactico teams) and their fair share of luck not to get seriously injured.

CR7 and Messi are products of their generation. You really cant compare different generations of footballers, but as fans we like to.

R9 pre ACL injuries was the closest we've had to a modern day Pele and theres been no-one like pre ACL R9 since.
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Messi and R9 are not comparable, different positions, different type of impact..
Messi is Maradona/Zico/Platini type of player with huge scoring ability, R9 is not.

R9 is more comparable to CR7 that's why you have almost 40 pages long thread devoted to it..
 
90's Serie A - Pre-pubescent Boys Sexual Awakening XI:

Pagliuca
Zanetti Thuram Baresi Maldini
Rikaard
Rui Costa -------------- Nedved
Baggio
Batistuta --- Ronaldo​
 
Kablamo said:
Romanticised nonsense. That's all the R9 fanfare is.

This thread is full of men in their mid to late thirties, harking back to a time when they were pre-pubescent boys who fell in love with a footballer and reached their sexual maturity with him. They shared his journey, they saved his Nike Airport video onto their C: Drive, or a 3.5 inch disc if they had WinZip. They won't hear or see any argument against him because no other footballer makes them feel that way.

I saw the same types trying to sneak him into the Top 5 of All Time list. That is absolute madness and nothing to do with footballing ability or achievement. This is all because their bodies ache for him. They yearn for those times again, and for the way he touched them through their adolescent years.

In terms of 90's Serie A forwads, I'm taking Batistuta every day of the week.

And forget what Ronaldo did at Barcelona, I remember Baltazar and Toni Polster going to La Liga and rattling them in for fun.

Cristiano Ronaldo is on a different level to the Brazilian one.
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Jesus, you talk some shit mate
 
Cristiano still had some flair when he got to Madrid. His first few seasons there were on par with what we saw at United from him in 06-07 and 07-08.

I've read most of the thread and not many are disputing that Cristiano has had the better career. Those on Ronaldo's side are using the peak argument, that Ronaldo's 3 year period from 96-99 eclipses any 3 years of Cristiano. Not from a stats perspective, but from a performance/excitement/aesthetics pov.

Going with that baseline, let's take Cristiano's 07-08 season, his 10-11 season and his 11-12 season. Those who have watched both: what's the gap between these 2 players based on the 3 seasons I've selected?
 
As a follow up, this is a dribbling compilation of Cristiano from 10-11.



Looks fantastic to me.

I don't deny Ronaldo had a fear factor in Serie A, but let's not pretend like Cristiano was this no-mark player who opponents didn't adjust for. I vividly remember PL opponents doubling up on Cristiano on the wing and forbidding their winger to move forward so Cristiano wouldn't be left one on one with some poor full back.
 
I loved original Ronaldo. He was brilliant, my favourite player growing up. But Messi and Cristiano are miles ahead. Its ridiculous to suggest anything otherwise. People love to glamorise players in the past on here.
 
adexkola said:
As a follow up, this is a dribbling compilation of Cristiano from 10-11.



Looks fantastic to me.

I don't deny Ronaldo had a fear factor in Serie A, but let's not pretend like Cristiano was this no-mark player who opponents didn't adjust for. I vividly remember PL opponents doubling up on Cristiano on the wing and forbidding their winger to move forward so Cristiano wouldn't be left one on one with some poor full back.
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Seen nothing but chops and flicks the same move repeated over and over again when he had space, did not see him dribble past more than 1 player in that video. It's pretty basic stuff. If you want to see what fear factor is watch prime Ronaldinho or prime Messi.

Even post injury R9 was more efficient at dribbling and instigating fear factor at inter and real.
 
CR7's flair is way overrated. He was a show pony - his best weapon to beat his man was always his turn of pace, while the tricks and skills almost always did nothing.
 
Luka Mora said:
Seen nothing but chops and flicks the same move repeated over and over again when he had space, did not see him dribble past more than 1 player in that video. It's pretty basic stuff. If you want to see what fear factor is watch prime Ronaldinho or prime Messi.

Even post injury R9 was more efficient at dribbling and instigating fear factor at inter and real.
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You need an eye check:

0:54 run past/gets away from 3 players
1.04 run past challenge from at least 2 players
1:20 do a one two move with his teammates to get past 3 players, then dribble past another player (total 4)
1:31 dribble past 2 players
2:10 seal dribble past challenge of 2 players
2:20 dribble past 2 players
2:27 dribble past 1 with a quick one two with his teammates, then dribble past another again (total 2)
2:51 dribble and run past 2 players, and run past the 3rd marker and got fouled from behind (total 3)

Its just the first 3 minutes of 12 mins long video, do I need to go on?
 
RedRonaldo said:
You need an eye check:

0:54 run past/gets away from 3 players
1.04 run past challenge from at least 2 players
1:20 do a one two move with his teammates to get past 3 players, then dribble past another player (total 4)
1:31 dribble past 2 players
2:10 seal dribble past challenge of 2 players
2:20 dribble past 2 players
2:27 dribble past 1 with a quick one two with his teammates, then dribble past another again (total 2)
2:51 dribble and run past 2 players, and run past the 3rd marker and got fouled from behind (total 3)

Its just the first 3 minutes of 12 mins long video, do I need to go on?
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Running past 2-3 players using pace isn't dribbling. Like I said there is nothing out of the ordinary or exciting about what he did in his peak. Stick the argument he was a great scorer, don't try and argue he was some kind of elite dribbler or wizard on the ball when clearly he was basic and had above average speed.

The best most infective trick he possessed was the chop, which he used over and over again. If you want to see real skill trickery and dribbles, i suggest you watch Ronaldinho, R9 or messi
 
Cascarino said:
The context point is one of the problems when these kinds of discussions are held. Factors like the players around them, the teams they competed against, and the roles the players had within said teams are sidelined and ignored. It just becomes a situation where people wiki seasons and tally up the amount of goals scored
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Can we not just judge the player? I’m struggling to see what Brazilian Ronaldo can be better at that’s not dribbling and..mythical non injury career? I’ve never seen dribbling more overrated in my life, there’s a reason why nobody really dribbles anymore.
Cristiano was more complete and it’s absolutely insane for anybody to argue against that.
 
Luka Mora said:
Seen nothing but chops and flicks the same move repeated over and over again when he had space, did not see him dribble past more than 1 player in that video. It's pretty basic stuff. If you want to see what fear factor is watch prime Ronaldinho or prime Messi.

Even post injury R9 was more efficient at dribbling and instigating fear factor at inter and real.
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Well excuse me.
 
dinostar77 said:
Because football doesnt begin and end with CR7 and Messi. These two have had consistency, longevity ( both due to modern football sports science, rules of game favouring attacker, better surfaces and the rize of galactico teams) and their fair share of luck not to get seriously injured.

CR7 and Messi are products of their generation. You really cant compare different generations of footballers, but as fans we like to.

R9 pre ACL injuries was the closest we've had to a modern day Pele and theres been no-one like pre ACL R9 since.
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As already pointed out by someone else, Ronaldo wasn’t even the highest goal scorer amongst his peers bar one season in his career, so it’s not even about comparing different generations.

Cristiano and Messi were head and shoulders above every other player they played with or against. R9 was scoring but he really wasn’t out scoring his peers the way Cristiano and Messi were, so any point about pitch and sport science is really irrelevant.
 
RedRonaldo said:
You need an eye check:

0:54 run past/gets away from 3 players
1.04 run past challenge from at least 2 players
1:20 do a one two move with his teammates to get past 3 players, then dribble past another player (total 4)
1:31 dribble past 2 players
2:10 seal dribble past challenge of 2 players
2:20 dribble past 2 players
2:27 dribble past 1 with a quick one two with his teammates, then dribble past another again (total 2)
2:51 dribble and run past 2 players, and run past the 3rd marker and got fouled from behind (total 3)

Its just the first 3 minutes of 12 mins long video, do I need to go on?
Click to expand...

I couldn't be arsed to do this breakdown, cheers
 
Kablamo said:
Romanticised nonsense. That's all the R9 fanfare is.

This thread is full of men in their mid to late thirties, harking back to a time when they were pre-pubescent boys who fell in love with a footballer and reached their sexual maturity with him. They shared his journey, they saved his Nike Airport video onto their C: Drive, or a 3.5 inch disc if they had WinZip. They won't hear or see any argument against him because no other footballer makes them feel that way.

I saw the same types trying to sneak him into the Top 5 of All Time list. That is absolute madness and nothing to do with footballing ability or achievement. This is all because their bodies ache for him. They yearn for those times again, and for the way he touched them through their adolescent years.

In terms of 90's Serie A forwads, I'm taking Batistuta every day of the week.

And forget what Ronaldo did at Barcelona, I remember Baltazar and Toni Polster going to La Liga and rattling them in for fun.

Cristiano Ronaldo is on a different level to the Brazilian one.
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what the feck.
 
cyberman said:
Can we not just judge the player? I’m struggling to see what Brazilian Ronaldo can be better at that’s not dribbling and..mythical non injury career? I’ve never seen dribbling more overrated in my life, there’s a reason why nobody really dribbles anymore.
Cristiano was more complete and it’s absolutely insane for anybody to argue against that.
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Yup, that’s my point. These are two players where we’ve seen a lot of them, so it’s much more worthwhile to discus them in a holistic manner, rather than the reductive method of just breaking down goal tallies over a select few seasons
 
And now for real. Brazilian Ronaldo is one of the 10 greatest players of all time, Portuguese Ronaldo isn't. Nobody should excuse goals only with being the greatest. If that was the case then Gerd Muller would be part of the debate too but he isn't so Cristiano shouldn't either.
 
Luka Mora said:
Running past 2-3 players using pace isn't dribbling. Like I said there is nothing out of the ordinary or exciting about what he did in his peak. Stick the argument he was a great scorer, don't try and argue he was some kind of elite dribbler or wizard on the ball when clearly he was basic and had above average speed.

The best most infective trick he possessed was the chop, which he used over and over again. If you want to see real skill trickery and dribbles, i suggest you watch Ronaldinho, R9 or messi
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So keep running past the challenge of 2-3 players with combination of skills, pace, tricks and quick feet to progress some 20 yards further on the pitch into dangerous area isn’t dribbling.

I think I am done arguing with you. Have a good day.
 
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