It’s not nostalgia at all. If you make a list of the best defenders between 1996 and 2016, how far down the list is the first player from this era?
Ronaldo vs Ronaldo
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It’s not nostalgia at all. If you make a list of the best defenders between 1996 and 2016, how far down the list is the first player from this era?
Maybe. But I think there's a lot more athleticism and a lot less space in football today than in the 90s. Players are faster, stronger, teams press more - it wasn't easier to be a great attacker in 2015 than in 1998.
No it was because L.Ronaldo played as a striker for everyone of his appearances whereas C.Ronaldo didn't.
Cristiano was the best Ronaldo and it isn’t even close.
I can't agree with that completely. Back in the 90s, scoring 30 goals in a season was a bit of a rarity and a great achievement. Players often reach those heights these days without much fuss.
Ronaldo between 1996 and 1999 was better Cristiano has ever been. He was both a more exciting dribbler than the pre 2007 Cristiano and as lethal a goalscorer as the later Cristiano.
That was more to do with introduction of the backpass rule than anything else.
Over half his Inter career was played with blown out knees. Pre-injury he was 52 in 82, which was an incredible tally for a new striker arriving to what wasn't exactly the best team, in a league which was at the time the strongest in the world.
R9
How much of that ranking would be down to nostalgia though?
I'm serious: I think defenders are under a LOT more scrutiny these days because we see every single game, their every single movement is analysed and reanalysed and every small mistake is magnified in the extreme.
There's also a shift in what coaches expect from defenders, true, and you could argue that shift favoured attackers somewhat. But I'd still say there's less space and less time than ever for attackers.
This
Cristiano and it's not particularly close.
Past his peak Baggio. 26 in 101 Zamorano. Ze Elias, Frezi, Colonnese, West, Winter, Moriero,Cauet, Sartor....
this was their starting line up in 97/98.
Bunch of superstars indeed
Yes, it's a great tally - and it still doesn't come close to Cristiano Ronaldo. It's sad that R9 never got to realise his full potential but there is simply no way I can place him above CR.
Very good point but it's possible that the quality of strikers/forwars had hugely improved between 1991 and 1998:
- Foreign stars: Bierhoff, Batistuta, Rui Costa
- Italian ones: Totti, Del Piero, Chiesa, Mancini, Inzaghi, Vieri, Toni, Montella, Hubner...
Or the coaches were more offensive in 97/98 than in 90/91
Or the defensive players were less good in the late 90s: hard to believe in it
@giorno has an opinion on this matter
Never said they were all superstars but "bunch of dummies" is incredibly harsh, looking at those names.Past his peak Baggio. 26 in 101 Zamorano. Ze Elias, Frezi, Colonnese, West, Winter, Moriero,Cauet, Sartor....
this was their starting line up in 97/98.
Bunch of superstars indeed
One of the things that play into L.Ronaldo's enduring appeal (technical ability aside) is the fact that he got robbed of a prolonged peak due to his dodgy knees. However the odds on him maintaining that early standard up to his late career are extremely thin. His top-heavy body type would have worked against him regardless. He could easily have done a Ronaldinho (another player of unreal technical ability) and faded without the injuries as well.
Having seen both at their peak, I personally think C.Ronaldo beats him on all accounts. Crucially for me, he's just more well rounded as a player; a good crosser, dribbler, finisher with both feet, free-kick taker and a huge aerial threat.
Having seen both at their peak, I personally think C.Ronaldo beats him on all accounts. Crucially for me, he's just more well rounded as a player; a good crosser, dribbler, finisher with both feet, free-kick taker and a huge aerial threat.
I'm looking at them mate. Bergomi was nearly retired and 35 at the time. Zamorano never reached Real's heights and fecked off to Mexico afterwards. The only big names are Djorkaeff and Zanetti. Half of them are bunch of dummies.
Not to mention Inter changing 4(FOUR) managers in the course of a season - 98/99 - Luigi Simoni, Mircea Lucescu, Luciano Castellini and Roy Hodgson
Career wise of course not. But you can't judge a players tally in 2019 with someone who was effectively ruined by injury 20 years earlier, the game was different. Even Pele doesn't match Cristiano's Madrid record but you wont find anyone arguing he was better than that Brazilian.
Yeah, pre-injury Ronaldo of Inter was much more comparable to Messi than Cristiano.
Once again, I refuse to choose
I mean, you could argue that.
But Pele's time was so long ago and so different that it's impossible to really compare. At best you could say that Pelé stood out more among his peers than Ronaldo did among his own but that's not a straightforward claim either.
Brazilian Ronaldo was still quite good when CR started his career; they are quite close to each other, in time. Football changed but not as much as since the 60s.
He already maintained a very good career after his injuries. Nothing to suggest he'd have faded like Ronaldinho did without the injuries. Even while overweight he was a great goalscorer.
In the 90's Fenomeno never received the same protection Cristiano does on day to day basis. He was kicked all over the place. Didn't dive at every contact and used sheer strength to ride past challenges. If you are using the 60's claim, you can pretty much use the different era for both as well. Football changed a lot since the 90's and there weren't that many super teams at the time. Look at the last 10 years or so - it's always Barca, Real and Bayern. In the 90's even Depor and Valencia challenged Real and Barca and both teams were far from these glory years.
Barca and Real bench at the moment is easily the 3rd and 4th best team in the world in the last decade...
Past his peak Baggio. 26 in 101 Zamorano. Ze Elias, Frezi, Colonnese, West, Winter, Moriero,Cauet, Sartor....
this was their starting line up in 97/98.
Bunch of superstars indeed
The Inter side of 1997-98 was pretty mediocre. Ronaldo carried them. But for the dodgy refereeing in the Derby d’Italia, Inter would’ve won the Scudetto and the UEFA Cup and it would be considered one of the all time great individual seasons.
I think the absolute contrary here.
Cristiano was so powerful/fast 12-14 years ago
Messi has never had the physical power of RonaldoS.
Ronaldo didn't rely on services while he was at united. He made things happen. I will take Cristiano's 2007/2008 season over any of Brazilian Ronaldo's.
Brazilian Ronaldo was finished in his original guise by the time Cristiano started his career, let alone when he joined us. Sports science and coaching has come on far faster in the last 10-15 years than ever before. It's now less about individuals and more about team play, and you see teams built around specific players in ways you never did before. Messi and Ronaldo would not be goal a game players 20 years ago, that just didn't happen.
Don't even think you can really argue Brazilian Ronaldo had a better peak, even if you give him all the benefit of playing in a more balanced, tougher league and on a less dominant team.
More exciting to watch and more skilled.
edit: after watch compliations of all their touches vs top teams I'm reconsidering...
More exciting to watch and more skilled.
edit: after watch compliations of all their touches vs top teams I'm reconsidering...
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Ive watched em both in their peaks, albeit i was young when R9 played for inter and madrid
I love R9, he was amazing and a true spectacle
But i try to not let the nostalgia bias to influence my judgement
CR7 is hands down the better player overall. Who gets underappreciated in here for many reasons (leaving us for madrid, getting use to his exposure and thinking what he does every weekend as trivial, etc)
Both are ridiculous players but with my personal effort of trying to be objective CR7 wins
I love R9, he was amazing and a true spectacle
But i try to not let the nostalgia bias to influence my judgement
CR7 is hands down the better player overall. Who gets underappreciated in here for many reasons (leaving us for madrid, getting use to his exposure and thinking what he does every weekend as trivial, etc)
Both are ridiculous players but with my personal effort of trying to be objective CR7 wins
Indeed. People bang on Fenomeno never winning CL, but at his peak he win the two European trophies he played in - the CWC and UEFA cup back to back. Producing blistering performances especially against Lazio.
How much of that ranking would be down to nostalgia though?
I'm serious: I think defenders are under a LOT more scrutiny these days because we see every single game, their every single movement is analysed and reanalysed and every small mistake is magnified in the extreme.
There's also a shift in what coaches expect from defenders, true, and you could argue that shift favoured attackers somewhat. But I'd still say there's less space and less time than ever for attackers.
I don’t think nostalgia plays much of a part, it’s not THAT long ago and I can remember it just fine. Here are some of the defenders present at the 1998 World Cup
Cafu
Roberto Carlos
Paolo Maldini
Alessandro Costacurta
Fabio Cannavaro
Alessandro Nesta
Gianluca Pessotto
Bixente lizarazu
Marcel Desailly
Lilian Thuram
Laurent Blanc
Carlos Gamarra
Fernando Hierro
Miguel Nadal
Jaap Stam
Frank de boer
Jurgen Kohler
A very old Lothar Matthaus
Sinisa Mijhalovic
Ivan Cordoba
Sol Campbell
Tony Adams
Roberto Ayala
Javier zanetti
You can make a case for maybe 3 defenders from the modern day making it into that list and not one of them gets into the top 10.
Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra. Or do you mean current players?
You can an to the list:
- an old Aldair (He is an AS Roma and Serie A legend)
- a veteran Giuseppe Bergomi
And most of those defenders in the list were excellent ball playing defenders too.
I think the absolute contrary here.
Cristiano was so powerful/fast 12-14 years ago
Messi has never had the physical power of RonaldoS.
In that sense, you’ve got a point.
Ronaldo at Inter was pretty revolutionary though. He was basically a centre-forward/playmaker hybrid in 1997-98. Something Messi perfected in his false 9 role of the Guardiola and Vilanova eras at Barça.
I think it really comes down to time. Would CR7 have achieved what he did during Ronaldos time and vice versa. I am not sure whetger CR7 would have been able to handle the sheer amount of fouls and the physicality of football. Ronaldo bossed Seria A when it had a huge reputation for amazing defenders. CR7 has scored a bag full of goals but mostly against mediocre opposition in Spain. Madrid and barac dominated the league for over 10 years, taken all the money share and this helped them build teams around them. Ronaldo would of thrived in this environment and i reckon he would of scored even more goals than he did. Ronaldo is the best player i have ever seen, he was incredible. CR7 is probably the best player i have seen in this generation and for a longer point of time. I think if it really boils down to who is better, the player who last the longest would win. I would put ronaldinho down as a player more with ability than CR7 and his "peak" was better. But CR7 has consistently owned his time for over 15 years now whilst blowing away goal scoring records. That is the stuff that sticks rather than specific performances.
He means defenders at the 1998 WC I think
These threads are useless because as usual it seems that what determines fans to decide how good a player is - is mostly by the way how these players dribble
Cristiano all the way, and I really like the fat one, was my favorite player as a child. And anyone saying R9's WC wins take the argument in his favor are a bit shallow with their assessment. One has to remember what that Brazil team looked like and who played for them. It was essentially a team of All Stars ffs. Cristiano's Euro win actually has more weight IMHO.
The debate is flawed from the outset.
Cristiano Ronaldo is not a centre-forward contrary to Ronaldo.
Cristiano Ronaldo is not a centre-forward contrary to Ronaldo.