Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

Enigma_87 said:
Fenomeno was unstoppable at his peak, often playing for less cohesive set ups and even very limited cast (Inter). He was unplayable in a Seria A which was the best league in history - stacked up with talent, especially defensive one.

He made a mockery of defenders like Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro at their peak.

If you limit the service Cristiano gets you can neutralize him. Fenomeno was a one man army. Give him the ball and he attacked like a whole frontline.
Click to expand...
He scored 59 goals in 99 games for Inter. I mean, that is good, sure, but you make it sound like he was some sort of demigod, an unstoppable force who never even had a bad game. Cristiano Ronaldo has a far better goals per game ratio than that in the effing Champions League - and that includes his entire career. If you only look at the Madrid years, he has 105 goals in 101 games in Europe. That is insane.

We do not appreciate how absolutely out of this world both he and Messi have been this past decade. We're unlikely to ever see such dominance ever again. Seriously, they are underrated compared to the older greats who have nostalgia in their favour.
 
Jagga7 said:
You could argue winning 2 World Cups, scoring 15 goals in them and being the star in the 2 of them is greater career than winning 5 CL's.
Click to expand...
Again, he did not play a single minute in 1994!

(And yes, you could argue that but you would be wrong)
 
Sky1981 said:
He always has the ball. What has he won single handedly?
Click to expand...
It doesn't really work like that as it is a team sport. Fenomeno was doubled, tripled on every occasion. During his peak at Inter he was their attack and if you neutralize him Inter would have very little chance to score. Having Fenomeno at his peak gives you plenty of room elsewhere where other attackers can exploit.

Luis Ronaldo was the most talented player I've seen and if you put him in modern day Barca and Real sides he'll break all those records himself, provided he's fit.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I've grown a strong dislike for versus threads... not sure why players constantly have to be compared against each other?
Click to expand...
Agreed. How do you feel about Versus threads versus Versus posts? I was thinking of making a thread about it.
 
Enigma_87 said:
It doesn't really work like that as it is a team sport. Fenomeno was doubled, tripled on every occasion. During his peak at Inter he was their attack and if you neutralize him Inter would have very little chance to score. Having Fenomeno at his peak gives you plenty of room elsewhere where other attackers can exploit.

Luis Ronaldo was the most talented player I've seen and if you put him in modern day Barca and Real sides he'll break all those records himself, provided he's fit.
Click to expand...

He doesnt.

If and buts aside he didnt deliver where it matters. Sorry.

And he didnt play against nesta 50 games. It's only twice a season.

Wish people would stop giving credits based on something that didnt exist. We should be comparing them on actual facts, not what if
 
Better peak CR7 6* in a row he scored 50+ goals a season and 4* averaging over a goal a game
Better career CR7 5* League titles 4* CL winner
 
Jagga7 said:
Why would it be wrong? Winning the World Cup is the ultimate prize in football.
Click to expand...

Ronaldo went to the World Cup in 1994. He had about as much impact on the tournament as you did.
 
Once we remove our nostalgia tinted glasses, it should always be CR7 and it's not even close.

R9 was a great player, mind. But lots of what-ifs (instead of facts) have cemented his stature as this mythical demi-god who, on his day was "unstoppable". If that was the case, then those days were not that frequent, given his trophy cabinet. Also, as glorious as his world cup exploits are, he played in a star-studded national team, which CR7 can only dream of.
 
Siorac said:
He scored 59 goals in 99 games for Inter. I mean, that is good, sure, but you make it sound like he was some sort of demigod, an unstoppable force who never even had a bad game. Cristiano Ronaldo has a far better goals per game ratio than that in the effing Champions League - and that includes his entire career. If you only look at the Madrid years, he has 105 goals in 101 games in Europe. That is insane.

We do not appreciate how absolutely out of this world both he and Messi have been this past decade. We're unlikely to ever see such dominance ever again. Seriously, they are underrated compared to the older greats who have nostalgia in their favour.
Click to expand...
If you go just by the numbers you can make a case of Platini being better than Maradona, yet this is not the case. Cristiano's Real was better than what Fenomeno played with at his peak. The thing is Fenomeno reached those levels at the tender age of 21. He still produced at WC's a lot more (past his prime) a lot more than Cristiano could ever pull and I was never seen defenders being so scared of facing anyone like Luis Ronaldo. And I'm talking about the crème de la crème - Maldini, Desailly, Nesta, etc.. Not Mascherano and Pique..
 
Luiz Ronaldo for more talent. However as a striker you should be really rated by goals.

L.Ronaldo - 30 and 31 goals were his highest ever goal scoring seasons.
C.Ronaldo - 30-40 goals (x1 times) 40-50 goals (x3 times), 50-60 goals (x3 times) 60-70 goals (x2 times).
 
Ronaldo had two ruined knees in his early 20s. He scored 47 goals in one season for Barca when he was 19. What was C Ronaldo doing when he was 19? Sure he wasn't a striker, but he also wasn't half the player at the same age.

C Ronaldo has completely surpassed him in terms of numbers and career performances, but I don't think calling R9 the greater talent has anything to do with nostalgia. He could do things before injuries that C Ronaldo simply can't.
 
Enigma_87 said:
If you go just by the numbers you can make a case of Platini being better than Maradona, yet this is not the case. Cristiano's Real was better than what Fenomeno played with at his peak. The thing is Fenomeno reached those levels at the tender age of 21. He still produced at WC's a lot more (past his prime) a lot more than Cristiano could ever pull and I was never seen defenders being so scared of facing anyone like Luis Ronaldo. And I'm talking about the crème de la crème - Maldini, Desailly, Nesta, etc.. Not Mascherano and Pique..
Click to expand...

This is the thing that often gets forgotten when discussing the two. The level of defence Luís Ronaldo came up against was just so much higher. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that you put him in the 2010s fully fit, he scores just as much or outscores both Ronaldo and Messi. People talk like it’s ronanticising him and re-writing history, when in actual fact it’s just that it was so blatantly obvious that you were watching a special player. Injuries ruined what would probably have become the benchmark to which Ronaldo and Messi aspired, rather than created.
 
Fenomeno the more talented. He did some crazy things with the football. Only injruies stopped him from reaching bigger things.

CR7 the more successful in his career.
 
Trizy said:
Luiz Ronaldo for more talent. However as a striker you should be really rated by goals.

L.Ronaldo - 30 and 31 goals were his highest ever goal scoring seasons.
C.Ronaldo - 30-40 goals (x1 times) 40-50 goals (x3 times), 50-60 goals (x3 times) 60-70 goals (x2 times).
Click to expand...
L Ronaldo scored 47 for Barcelona, 35 for PSV and 34 for Inter
 
Posters here falling into the usual trap of considering stats without context.

If C Ronaldo is that much better as a scorer, could you please explain this:
Brazilian Ronaldo for Brazil: 62 goals in 98 games = 0.63 per game
Portuguese Ronaldo for Portual: 85 goals in 154 games = 0.55 per game
 
Enigma_87 said:
If you go just by the numbers you can make a case of Platini being better than Maradona, yet this is not the case. Cristiano's Real was better than what Fenomeno played with at his peak. The thing is Fenomeno reached those levels at the tender age of 21. He still produced at WC's a lot more (past his prime) a lot more than Cristiano could ever pull and I was never seen defenders being so scared of facing anyone like Luis Ronaldo. And I'm talking about the crème de la crème - Maldini, Desailly, Nesta, etc.. Not Mascherano and Pique..
Click to expand...
He was primarily a goalscorer so it's a very important metric to compare.

And yes, injuries ruined him. Which is why it is simply obvious that Cristiano Ronaldo developed into a better player than the Brazilian ever was. I don't doubt he might have been as good as Ronaldo and Messi if it had not been for injuries but we'll never know now.
 
Sky1981 said:
He doesnt.

If and buts aside he didnt deliver where it matters. Sorry.

And he didnt play against nesta 50 games. It's only twice a season.

Wish people would stop giving credits based on something that didnt exist. We should be comparing them on actual facts, not what if
Click to expand...
Actual facts - 1WC final, 1WC - winning the Golden Ball and Golden boot in those. 2 Copas - 10 goals in those, 1 as a top goalscorer.

Cristiano doesn't get close to that at international level. When Fenomeno played for a top team and world class team mates, even past his peak, in 2002 he delivered.



It's not really romantic feelings, you get whole training sessions dedicated to stopping him and analyzing his game. When you get players like Desailly and Thuram talk about him in that sense you can see how feared he was. Something I've never seen being talked about Cristiano at his peak.
 
Hound Dog said:
Posters here falling into the usual trap of considering stats without context.

If C Ronaldo is that much better as a scorer, could you please explain this:
Brazilian Ronaldo for Brazil: 62 goals in 98 games = 0.63 per game
Portuguese Ronaldo for Portual: 85 goals in 154 games = 0.55 per game
Click to expand...

Argument falls apart if you look at total career appearances and goals.

Ronaldo 7 goes to .75GPG
Ronaldo 9 goes to .68GPG
 
Arbitrium said:
Argument falls apart if you look at total career appearances and goals.

Ronaldo 7 goes to .75GPG
Ronaldo 9 goes to .68GPG
Click to expand...

That was not my point at all.

My point was that no one seems to be taking context into account. Cristiano scored more for the club, Brazilian Ronaldo scored more for his country.

Why did Cristiano score so much more for the club? Because he played in far far better club sides than the Brazilian once ever did. Likewise for the Brazilian's superior scoring record for his country.
 
Why are people comparing goal stats and trophies won between one player whose career has been plagued with serious injuries, and one who has a freakishly good injury record?

The only comparison should be when both players where at their very best.

IMO, I would rather defend against Cristiano.
 
Jagga7 said:
You could argue winning 2 World Cups, scoring 15 goals in them and being the star in the 2 of them is greater career than winning 5 CL's.
Click to expand...
You could but I don't know why you would. The WC has a mythical feel to it but that's got little to do with the football's quality really. It's a joke compared to the CL.
 
Hound Dog said:
That was not my point at all.

My point was that no one seems to be taking context into account. Cristiano scored more for the club, Brazilian Ronaldo scored more for his country.

Why did Cristiano score so much more for the club? Because he played in far far better club sides than the Brazilian once ever did. Likewise for the Brazilian's superior scoring record for his country.
Click to expand...

So your point is that the better the team, the more likely the focal point of the attack is to score goals?
 
Arbitrium said:
Ronaldo went to the World Cup in 1994. He had about as much impact on the tournament as you did.
Click to expand...
He won it in 2002 as the top goal scorer. Won the Golden Ball at the 1998 WC. I just think there's a case to be made that these accomplishments outweigh what C.Ronaldo has done.
 
Arbitrium said:
This is the thing that often gets forgotten when discussing the two. The level of defence Luís Ronaldo came up against was just so much higher. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that you put him in the 2010s fully fit, he scores just as much or outscores both Ronaldo and Messi. People talk like it’s ronanticising him and re-writing history, when in actual fact it’s just that it was so blatantly obvious that you were watching a special player. Injuries ruined what would probably have become the benchmark to which Ronaldo and Messi aspired, rather than created.
Click to expand...
Arguably, this is as much nostalgia as anything else. Defending in the late 90s really wasn't that great. The Serie A was starting to be rather different from its early 90s version. For comparison: average goal per game in 1990/91 was 2.2941. In 97/98 it was 2.7680. That's higher than this season or last season in Italy.
 
Siorac said:
He was primarily a goalscorer so it's a very important metric to compare.

And yes, injuries ruined him. Which is why it is simply obvious that Cristiano Ronaldo developed into a better player than the Brazilian ever was. I don't doubt he might have been as good as Ronaldo and Messi if it had not been for injuries but we'll never know now.
Click to expand...

He wasn't a pure striker. He dropped deep. Went into channels, would run the entire flank from his own half. Compare his movement at his peak and what we see from Cristiano at Real. Completely different things. He wasn't as close to the goal, neither Barca or Inter were that dominant when he played for them.

54 goals in 57 games for PSV when Eredivisie was actually good. Then went to Barca - 47 goals in 49 games. Then to Inter playing with bunch of dummies - 49 goals in 75 games in the strongest league ever. In the meantime tearing it up in WC and the Copa. All that before hitting 23..

Arbitrium said:
This is the thing that often gets forgotten when discussing the two. The level of defence Luís Ronaldo came up against was just so much higher. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that you put him in the 2010s fully fit, he scores just as much or outscores both Ronaldo and Messi. People talk like it’s ronanticising him and re-writing history, when in actual fact it’s just that it was so blatantly obvious that you were watching a special player. Injuries ruined what would probably have become the benchmark to which Ronaldo and Messi aspired, rather than created.
Click to expand...

That often gets overlooked. When Luis Suarez comes to La Liga and outscores BOTH Cristiano and Messi, there really isn't a reason why Fenomeno won't be constantly hitting those figures provided he's fit.
 
pierrethesnack said:
Speaking of:
eb5acb9148d396a0a23f4d99e97ec6d3.jpg
Click to expand...

Even with all that money he looks like he has the arms of a dwarf.
 
Siorac said:
Arguably, this is as much nostalgia as anything else. Defending in the late 90s really wasn't that great. The Serie A was starting to be rather different from its early 90s version. For comparison: average goal per game in 1990/91 was 2.2941. In 97/98 it was 2.7680. That's higher than this season or last season in Italy.
Click to expand...
Isn't that due to more top strikers also playing there in the 90s compared with today?
 
Siorac said:
He scored 59 goals in 99 games for Inter. I mean, that is good, sure, but you make it sound like he was some sort of demigod, an unstoppable force who never even had a bad game. Cristiano Ronaldo has a far better goals per game ratio than that in the effing Champions League - and that includes his entire career. If you only look at the Madrid years, he has 105 goals in 101 games in Europe. That is insane.

We do not appreciate how absolutely out of this world both he and Messi have been this past decade. We're unlikely to ever see such dominance ever again. Seriously, they are underrated compared to the older greats who have nostalgia in their favour.
Click to expand...

I agree with you and I will copy/paste a post I wrote in 2017 to feed the discussion

Serie A Context

97/98: Ronaldo scored 40 goals with Inter Milan - all competitions - with a dysfunctional team (for many reasons). Zamorano & Djorkaeff were able to score some goals but let's be clear: the only offensive threat was Ronaldo. No collective play. Add the fact that refereeing has changed since (except France) to protect talented players subject to assaults. Seria A was the best league in Europe.

Top scorers Inter Milan in Serie A - 1997-98

  • 22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png
    Ronaldo 25 goals
  • 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
    Youri Djorkaeff 8 goals
  • 23px-Flag_of_Argentina.svg.png
    Diego Simeone 6 goals
  • 23px-Flag_of_Uruguay.svg.png
    Álvaro Recoba 3 goals
  • 23px-Flag_of_Chile.svg.png
    Zamorano: 1 goal

98/02 - 4 seasons - he scored 24 goals with Inter in 40 games only because of 2 main major injuries.

Despite these major injuries - resulting in a decline of his capacities - he scored 9 goals in 10 games with Brazil and won the WC in 2002.

2002/06: he was still a high-performing striker with Real: 83 goals + 18 assists in 127 LaLiga games.

#Context
 
Enigma_87 said:
He wasn't a pure striker. He dropped deep. Went into channels, would run the entire flank from his own half. Compare his movement at his peak and what we see from Cristiano at Real. Completely different things. He wasn't as close to the goal, neither Barca or Inter were that dominant when he played for them.

54 goals in 57 games for PSV when Eredivisie was actually good. Then went to Barca - 47 goals in 49 games. Then to Inter playing with bunch of dummies - 49 goals in 75 games in the strongest league ever. In the meantime tearing it up in WC and the Copa. All that before hitting 23..



That often gets overlooked. When Luis Suarez comes to La Liga and outscores BOTH Cristiano and Messi, there really isn't a reason why Fenomeno won't be constantly hitting those figures provided he's fit.
Click to expand...
Baggio, Zamorano, Zanetti, Simeone, Bergomi... Let's not pretend it was some Sunday league outfit.
 
Arbitrium said:
So your point is that the better the team, the more likely the focal point of the attack is to score goals?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Additionally, with Ronaldo (and Messi, to a certain extent), we have the birth of stat padding in football. Just remember all those 5:0 thrashings of Levante and such in which they were both pushing so hard to score more goals. This always existed up to a certain extent, but has reached new heights with these two. Why can't they do the same for their countries? Because their national teams are not superior enough. Although Ronaldo did have several multi-goal efforts against Faroe Islands and such.

If two players are to be compared based on their scoring records, they would have needed to spent the majority of their careers playing for sides of similar quality and against opposition of similar quality. Of course, this will never be the case, which is why such comparisons are frivolous.
 
Siorac said:
Arguably, this is as much nostalgia as anything else. Defending in the late 90s really wasn't that great. The Serie A was starting to be rather different from its early 90s version. For comparison: average goal per game in 1990/91 was 2.2941. In 97/98 it was 2.7680. That's higher than this season or last season in Italy.
Click to expand...
If you are looking only at the numbers it won't really give a better appreciation of both players.

If you have seen him at his peak, would Pique and Mascherano stop him from reaching the numbers Cristiano does in the derbies?
 
I’m pretty sure that if you would’ve put Cristiano in that 2002 Brazil team, they would’ve still won it. Cristiano wins by any possible metric... but I’d still go with Luis, given the choice.

edit: unless you’re a manager that signs a youth player who will spend the rest of his career at your club. Than it’s Cristiano, obviously.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.