Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

[SCP]

I mean, there’s a thread right now where people are making an XI of the past 40 years and about half are putting him on the bench

It’s 2019 and he’s getting compared to Muller, Eusebio, R9 and Ronaldinho...

This place might be a United forum but it’s no different from other general football forums when it comes to these things. He’s a top 5 player of all time that pissed too many people off and gets scrutinized far more than any other player because loads of people don’t like him. Go back 2 years and there were serious arguments here over the advantages and disadvantages of Manchester United signing Lukaku, Morata, Belotti or Cristiano Ronaldo ffs.

And the majority has said he is better?

Anyway I hope when I have time after watching a full few matches of Muller and comparing their carrers and if they played on the same era that imagining he possibly would be a player with similar numbers won't make you think someone is downgrading him.

After all are you expecting what on a Football Forum? 100% agreement when the subject is Football?

 

[Peyroteo]

And the majority has said he is better?

Anyway I hope when I have time after watching a full few matches of Muller and comparing their carrers and if they played on the same era that imagining he possibly would be a player with similar numbers won't make you think someone is downgrading him.

After all are you expecting what on a Football Forum? 100% agreement when the subject is Football?

Of course not, when I discuss things here I know I won’t change anyone’s mind

I do it because it’s fun. If everyone agreed with me it would be awful.

 

[Hala Madrid]

And the majority has said he is better?

Anyway I hope when I have time after watching a full few matches of Muller and comparing their carrers and if they played on the same era that imagining he possibly would be a player with similar numbers won't make you think someone is downgrading him.

After all are you expecting what on a Football Forum? 100% agreement when the subject is Football?

I can bet you, if Ronaldo was the pretentiously 'humble and meek' type of guy and was generally liked by everyone, nobody will be disrespecting him like they do now (comparing him with R9, Eusebio, Gerd Muller who are far inferior players compared to him objectively).
Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest player ever, but the thing is, among the pantheon of the top 4 greats down to even the 20th, he's the most divisive...it's either you abhor and hate him (while pretending to be neutral and objective), or you love him to bits...there's no neutrality, absolutely non and every single person on this forum knows that, if they're being honest with themselves.
But as time goes on, in maybe 15-20 years, I genuinely think the only player that will still be mentioned along with Cristiano Ronaldo will be Pele...not maradona or messi, nostalgia has a way of doing things...the bigger your achievemnts, the more fondly you'll be remembered; he has ticked all the buttons (except a little thing about world cup), while Messi hasn't despite being a better dribbler. So, no need to sweat out anything, he's still the most divisive player in the world now, let the dust settle after he has retired then we'll see more clear-minded opinions from 'neutrals' and the younger generations

 

[CA_vampire]

Which is wholly decided by opinion.

Not exactly. Ballon d'Or is decided by the vote of experts. That's not really "opinion", it is statistical measurement. For many people, this is actually a better way to make decisions than just "numbers" (like goals or number of trophies).

 

[dumbo]

The footy stat is a debasement of currency. It's exponents employ it as a way to undermine consensus through the devaluation of more legitimate forms of quality evaluation.

Cristiano boys are experts in this practice of sabotage. They are the Zimbabwean dollar of the football debate.

 

[the_irish123]

Cristiano is mostly a one touch finisher, he needs his team to produce almost everything for him.

The only time Cristiano played in a team as bad as Ronaldo, was his Sporting days. And his stats there were shit. So stats are irrelevant.

Ronaldo could produce goals from anywhere on the pitch and alongisde Taribo West and Ze Elias. Definately more talented player.

 

[Dumbat12]

.the bigger your achievemnts, the more fondly you'll be remembered; he has ticked all the buttons (except a little thing about world cup), while Messi hasn't despite being a better dribbler. So, no need to sweat out anything, he's still the most divisive player in the world now, let the dust settle after he has retired then we'll see more clear-minded opinions from 'neutrals' and the younger generations

Messi is a better goalscorer and way better in every other aspect of football. I don't know where you get this "Messi hasn't ticked all the buttons". At the end of the day Ronaldo's greatest attribute is simply poaching goals and Messi has him beat even in that department. To even compare him to Messi when it comes to assist making, dribbling, vision, team play, passing is ridiculous. He is nowhere near close.

 

[Peyroteo]

Cristiano is mostly a one touch finisher, he needs his team to produce almost everything for him.

Cristiano has scored more goals after dribbling past players than Ronaldo ever did. Cristiano has scored more goals in which he used more than one touch than Ronaldo ever did.

The only time Cristiano played in a team as bad as Ronaldo, was his Sporting days. And his stats there were shit. So stats are irrelevant.

Did Cristiano not play for Portugal?

Stats are irrelevant? I find the fact one will end his career with 400-500 more goals than the other pretty relevant.

Ronaldo could produce goals from anywhere on the pitch and alongisde Taribo West and Ze Elias. Definately more talented player.

Cristiano Ronaldo has scored more goals after getting the ball behind the halfway line without any teammate involvement than Ronaldo ever did. Be it through dribbling or shooting from range, you really want to talk about producing goals from anywhere on the pitch?

 

[CA_vampire]

I can bet you, if Ronaldo was the pretentiously 'humble and meek' type of guy and was generally liked by everyone, nobody will be disrespecting him like they do now (comparing him with R9, Eusebio, Gerd Muller who are far inferior players compared to him objectively).

You are right, there are a lot snowflakes today compared to a couple of decades ago. In the 1980s nobody gave a fart if Maradona referred to himself as "god", or how often he used drugs, or with how many women he went with every night, or how many of his friends belonged to the italian mafia. And CR7 is a better player than Maradona.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi is a better goalscorer and way better in every other aspect of football. I don't know where you get this "Messi hasn't ticked all the buttons". At the end of the day Ronaldo's greatest attribute is simply poaching goals and Messi has him beat even in that department. To even compare him to Messi when it comes to assist making, dribbling, vision, team play, passing is ridiculous. He is nowhere near close.

“Messi is way better in every single aspect of football and by ‘every single aspect of football’ I mean only the ones he’s better at”

That’s a classic.

Messi isn’t a better goalscorer than Ronaldo either and calling Cristiano Ronaldo a poacher while he’s leading the league in assists at 34 years old might divide opinions a tiny bit.

People won’t give a shit about the stats like they don’t give a shit about the stats here in this very thread. Stats are relevant only up to a point, massive difference in the circumstances they happened removes importance.

 

[the_irish123]

Cristiano has scored more goals after dribbling past players than Ronaldo ever did. Cristiano has scored more goals in which he used more than one touch than Ronaldo ever did.



Did Cristiano not play for Portugal?

Stats are irrelevant? I find the fact one will end his career with 400-500 more goals than the other pretty relevant.



Cristiano Ronaldo has scored more goals after getting the ball behind the halfway line without any teammate involvement than Ronaldo ever did. Be it through dribbling or shooting from range, you really want to talk about producing goals from anywhere on the pitch?

Immobile has scored way more than Baggio too.

 

[SCP]

Of course not, when I discuss things here I know I won’t change anyone’s mind

I do it because it’s fun. If everyone agreed with me it would be awful.

You have no solution.

 

[Sayros]

R9 was by far the most lethal player to ever play the game of football as far as being a single force that could score goals on his own. At his peak, he was a far better player than CR7 and at least on level with Messi when it comes to goalscoring (although Messi has more to his game as a playmaker but R9 was quite good at that as well). Ultimately, CR7 has a much more decorated career at club level and blows his stats away. Injuries robbed the world of its greatest ever player.

 

[Peyroteo]

Immobile has scored way more than Baggio too.

No, he hasn’t... and Baggio wasn’t a striker.

You call tell me stats aren’t important, but please do actually try to tell me Cristiano Ronaldo ending his career having scored 400 to 500 more goals than Ronaldo Nazario is irrelevant to this discussion.

It’s not a few more goals ffs. It’s five fecking hundred.

If Cristiano Ronaldo got injured after 2007/08 and became a worse version of that there would be people here rating him higher than they do now

 

[SCP]

But as time goes on, in maybe 15-20 years, I genuinely think the only player that will still be mentioned along with Cristiano Ronaldo will be Pele...not maradona or messi

You certainly know how to make friends here allright. Jesus wept, this topics are becoming a hotbed of extremism.

The only time Cristiano played in a team as bad as Ronaldo, was his Sporting days. And his stats there were shit. So stats are irrelevant.

You do know United signed him with 18 do you? Now regarding the bolded part, I have experience with our level of shitness thanks. There is the slogan MAGA and then its us. MSGA.

 

[the_irish123]

No, he hasn’t... and Baggio wasn’t a striker.

You call tell me stats aren’t important, but please do actually try to tell me Cristiano Ronaldo ending his career having scored 400 to 500 more goals than Ronaldo is irrelevant to this discussion.

It’s not a few more goals ffs. It’s fecking five hundred.

Of course it means Cristiano had a better career, but if so many people would pick Ronaldo for 1 game, just let it be and stop trying to make people think like you.

 

[Infordin]

Here’s a highlight video from Ronaldo when he was at Sporting (he was about 17):



Do any Portuguese people actually remember how Ronaldo was perceived at the time? Was he considered a huge future star like Mbappe/Dembele or merely another decent young player?

 

[SCP]

Here’s a highlight video from Ronaldo when he was at Sporting (he was about 17):



Do any Portuguese people actually remember how Ronaldo was perceived at the time? Was he considered a huge future star like Mbappe/Dembele or merely another decent young player?

I was at the stadium on that game. It was the friendly vs United. It was his last game for us on the day of the Stadium Inauguration. Bold is your answer.

 

[Zlaatan]

Neither do I, I got the tagline the same way Cal? gets it... Because people like you do this exact thing since they don’t like what I have to say. Painting me as biased and deluded and dismissing my points is easier than arguing them.

I argue the same way about this subject as I do about anything here... you don’t like it, ignore me and you don’t have to see my posts rather than derailing threads over and over again with the same conservation. This must be at least the fourth time we’re having the same conversation.

It’s not any ‘people’ that take notice. It’s the people who get upset by it... it just happens that giving Ronaldo the praise he deserves doesn’t really make a lot of people happy.

Can we stop detailing this and future threads now? You can send me a PM next time so I can talk to you about my childhood and how it impacted my posting habits on redcafe

I just asked a simple question. I like your usual twist&make up crap dance though, you’re obviously correct that it can’t have been your posting history that gave you that tag as you’ve barely ever mentioned Ronaldo, and the reason people react to your obsession with him is not because of your agenda and arrogant attitude, it must be the fact that they don’t like nice things being said about Ronaldo.

Give me a fecking break.

 

[Rito]

Is this still going on?

While we are at it, R9 is a far far better footballer than Messi. Better strength, better dribbling , better technician with the ball,uch higher peak, didn't have xaviesta, neymar, Suarez feeding him throughout his career. Internationally, he pretty much dominates Messi in every aspect. R9 was scoring goals in WC finals while Messi was missing one on ones , or penalties, and then going on to retirement . R9>>>>>>>> Messi.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Cristiano is still by far the least technically gifted of the greats. Ronaldo, Pele, Maradonna, Messi had a natural effortlessness to their game and their inherent feel for the ball and coordination sets them apart. He deserves tremendous credit for almost making the grade. From an egalitarian view, Ronaldo's really, really hard trying is more admirable than the tyrannical genius of the very best in the game.

Totally disagree. You are comparing the worst version of Cristiano (30-34) in terms of technical/skills/dribbling to the peak version of those. For example, even the technically most gifted players, like L.Ronaldo and Ronaldinho, are getting far worst when they are approaching their early 30's, you don't get to see them dribble at that age too. Watch younger peak version of Cristiano (11-13), he was imo very close to those level technically, and of course better in everything else too.

 

[Peyroteo]

I just asked a simple question. I like your usual twist&make up crap dance though, you’re obviously correct that it can’t have been your posting history that gave you that tag as you’ve barely ever mentioned Ronaldo, and the reason people react to your obsession with him is not because of your agenda and arrogant attitude, it must be the fact that they don’t like nice things being said about Ronaldo.

Give me a fecking break.

Sure, which is why me and Cal? have it along with all the others.. oh. Argue about football and stop the personal attack for once for fecks sake. Don’t like me, put me on ignore instead of constantly trying to start personal arguments in the middle of threads because you’re too ignorant to argue about the sport.

I’m sorry my opinions make you so mad but you want to argue football on a football forum? Great. If not then you know what to do.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Ronaldo: amazing attacker, world phenomenal player, superb finishing, impressive arrays of techniques and skills, top level, Football Icon.
Ronaldo: amazing attacker, world phenomenal player, superb finishing, impressive arrays of techniques and skills, top level, Football Icon.

Exactly -- R9 & R7
Similar in those summarized sense but essentially they're totally two different type of players.

Glad I was able to see these two in action play football live, in my lifetime.

 

[Lay]

Brazilian Ronaldo all day long.

 

[11101]

Yeah, but we also have the Ballon d'Or:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d'Or#Wins_by_player

Spot the one too young to have seen him play.

Before they were merged the World Player of The Year was the big award, of which Ronaldo won 3. In his first 7 years of playing he won it 3 times, came second once and third once. The Ballon D'Or was second tier back then.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I always get into debates in the Messi vs Ronaldo thread with the usual Cristiano fans. With me being firmly in the Messi camp.

However, this aside, Cristiano is much better than R9. Look at the goals he has accumulated, look at what he has won with his clubs, look at his individual awards. He is ahead of R9 in that regard.

Nostalgia is playing its part here along with “what if” with R9 and his injuries.

When I talk to people at work, or at Uni, or friends, and I ask them who their top 5 players of all time are, a lot of them say R9 and Zidane. Clearly with football opinions people use too much nostalgia.

 

[11101]

I always get into debates in the Messi vs Ronaldo thread with the usual Cristiano fans. With me being firmly in the Messi camp.

However, this aside, Cristiano is much better than R9. Look at the goals he has accumulated, look at what he has won with his clubs, look at his individual awards. He is ahead of R9 in that regard.

Nostalgia is playing its part here along with “what if” with R9 and his injuries.

When I talk to people at work, or at Uni, or friends, and I ask them who their top 5 players of all time are, a lot of them say R9 and Zidane. Clearly with football opinions people use too much nostalgia.

Or their eyes.

Cristiano, and Messi to some extent, are stat kings aided by the shift in recent years to teams tailoring their styles towards a smaller number of players scoring a higher number of goals than ever before. If they had played in a different era their numbers wouldn't be as high as you could have a more reasoned debate over them. It doesn't mean they're not as great, just that stats from different eras are not comparable, but you can't have that discussion because you have kids hero worshipping them and throwing their toys out of the pram when anyone dares question them, as in this thread.

 

[Juan King Dead]

There is only one Ronaldo.
The other guy you mentioned is a diver and a cry baby.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Or their eyes.

Cristiano, and Messi to some extent, are stat kings aided by the shift in recent years to teams tailoring their styles towards a smaller number of players scoring a higher number of goals than ever before. If they had played in a different era their numbers wouldn't be as high as you could have a more reasoned debate over them. It doesn't mean they're not as great, just that stats from different eras are not comparable, but you can't have that discussion because you have kids hero worshipping them and throwing their toys out of the pram when anyone dares question them, as in this thread.

Not at all. Messi and Ronaldo have scored by far more than any other player of their generation. That argument is flawed.

Besides, why did Gerd Muller, Pele, Eusebio, Puskas, all score a similar amount of goals as Messi and Ron then? If football before didn’t have players scoring like they do now.

Only Messi and Ronaldo have scored this number of goals in the last 15 years, because they are so much better than the rest. Nothing to do with football of now. Very weak argument tbh.

 

[cjj]

They have consistently been leading UEFA rankings this years.

If the best league in the world by far is a joke league, then what do you call the rest of world football?

Ronaldo at Madrid averaged 1.07 goals per game in La Liga and 1.04 goals per game in the champions League for 9 years and you’re honestly trying to tell me the only reason he scored loads of goals is that the league is unbalanced?

I can see you're finding this difficult to comprehend, so I'll be concise: up until the new laws were passed, La Liga were giving over 40% of the total prize fund to just two teams: Barcelona and Real Madrid. Real were also given a back-hander for Las Tablas (training ground land), and were one of three clubs (Barca being another) that were given tax subsidies in the 90s. That financial doping inbalanced the league and made a huge gulf between Barca/Real and the other teams in the league. This essentially also means that both teams were able to assemble a collection of the best players in the world. So, Barca and Real end up playing with super-teams in a league were the opposition is imbalanced. The difference between a top 5 team and a bottom 5 team is vast, both financially and in ability.

So, to summarise, attempting to disregard Eredivise, Serie A, or literally any other league, whilst trying to claim La Liga is by some means any different is ridiculous.

What? It has absolutely nothing at all to do with statistics for fecks sake... how the hell does saying a player had a better season than other mean that I compared their stats? I actually watched them play.

...

Ronaldo at Madrid averaged 1.07 goals per game in La Liga and 1.04 goals per game in the champions League for 9 years and you’re honestly trying to tell me the only reason he scored loads of goals is that the league is unbalanced?

You must be doing that on purpose...

 

[Mainoldo]

Here’s a highlight video from Ronaldo when he was at Sporting (he was about 17):



Do any Portuguese people actually remember how Ronaldo was perceived at the time? Was he considered a huge future star like Mbappe/Dembele or merely another decent young player?

Made his debut at 16 and scored be it a tap in . I think the fact he played at 16 says it all.

 

[11101]

Not at all. Messi and Ronaldo have scored by far more than any other player of their generation. That argument is flawed.

Besides, why did Gerd Muller, Pele, Eusebio, Puskas, all score a similar amount of goals as Messi and Ron then? If football before didn’t have players scoring like they do now.

Only Messi and Ronaldo have scored this number of goals in the last 15 years, because they are so much better than the rest. Nothing to do with football of now. Very weak argument tbh.

I think you misunderstand. Comparing across generations, not Messi and Ronaldo vs others from this generation. It's already been shown that across the top leagues in Europe the top players now are scoring more than their predecessors did, despite the total number of goals scored in those leagues remaining relatively unchanged.

 

[MrEleson]

Go back 2 years and there were serious arguments here over the advantages and disadvantages of Manchester United signing Lukaku, Morata, Belotti or Cristiano Ronaldo ffs

 

[MrEleson]

However imagine Ronaldo de Lima was born a decade later and maradonna 27 years later - with the current advancements they very well may have been as good if not better than the present greats.

You could argue it both ways though. Maybe with the advancements in sports science, training, etc. guys like Maradona may not have made it due to their mentality. Someone as messed up as Maradona who did cocaine in between matches may not have taken the advantages of his surroundings or utilised the tools at his disposal which would have left him in dust and he may have turned out like another failed talent. You could also apply this to George Best. Players back then could get away with that kind of personality and lifestyle due to the lower intensity the game was played at. But today to succeed at the highest level, you can't really be anything less than a consummate professional.

 

[Bobski]

These arguments bore me to tears( and yes I am foolishly contributing to it) Obsession with GOAT discussions, such an American pursuit, so many of the Messi v Ronaldo threads almost read narrative point v point as near identical to so many of the tedious Lebron v MJ NBA topics. The same stat bombing, the same criticism of teammates to elevate one player higher, the same era v era arguments to again elevate one higher.

Maradona v Pele v Cruyff v whoever were discussions, but never to this level(to be fair we did not have these forums when those were the games main figures). I used to like stats, but ultimately what matters to me are the aesthetics of a players game. Cristiano has had a better career than R9 but he never inspired me in the same way that R9 did. Yes, TINGLES, but when I am an old man I will not be looking back at numbers, it will be the moments that stay with me.

Better player, but if I could chose to watch one at their absolute peak it would not even be a difficult decision.

 

[RedRonaldo]

These arguments bore me to tears( and yes I am foolishly contributing to it) Obsession with GOAT discussions, such an American pursuit, so many of the Messi v Ronaldo threads almost read narrative point v point as near identical to so many of the tedious Lebron v MJ NBA topics. The same stat bombing, the same criticism of teammates to elevate one player higher, the same era v era arguments to again elevate one higher.

Maradona v Pele v Cruyff v whoever were discussions, but never to this level(to be fair we did not have these forums when those were the games main figures). I used to like stats, but ultimately what matters to me are the aesthetics of a players game. Cristiano has had a better career than R9 but he never inspired me in the same way that R9 did. Yes, TINGLES, but when I am an old man I will not be looking back at numbers, it will be the moments that stay with me.

Better player, but if I could chose to watch one at their absolute peak it would not even be a difficult decision.

That's why to some Ronaldinho>Messi, king of freestyle football, by far the most entertaining to watch, and the moments will stay forever when you get old.

 

[Bobski]

That's why to some Ronaldinho>Messi, king of freestyle football, by far the most entertaining to watch, and the moments will stay forever when you get old.

One of my favourite eras of the game was that time in Spain when one week you got Zidane, the next Ronaldinho, the next Valeron(not on the level of the first 2 really but a beautiful player to watch), all at their best, with distinctly different styles. Stats were not the king of everything, it was the joy of their mastery of the game that made it so compelling.

 

[Schneckerl]

Go back 2 years and there were serious arguments here over the advantages and disadvantages of Manchester United signing Lukaku, Morata, Belotti or Cristiano Ronaldo ffs.

There was also a thread asking "Would you swap Martial for Messi?" made in 2016.

You'll find all kinds of stupid opinions on the internet.

Yes, Martial is way better than all of those, but still...

 

[TsuWave]

Here’s a highlight video from Ronaldo when he was at Sporting (he was about 17):



Do any Portuguese people actually remember how Ronaldo was perceived at the time? Was he considered a huge future star like Mbappe/Dembele or merely another decent young player?

I lived in Portugal at the time, I was young but I remember him being considered a huge future star.

 

[_00_deathscar]

It's crazy to say that Cristiano hasn't had the better career - he blatantly has. There are other factors to this though - and Ronaldo's injuries/decline (post the World Cup - after that he became a bit more overweight etc) weren't through a lack of physical discipline that is oft levelled at the likes of Ronaldinho/Adriano etc - he had two freak injuries one after the other, both very much career threatening. Additionally, Ronaldo obviously made some bad career choices (e.g. the move to Inter etc).

But everyone who saw Ronaldo at his absolutely peak knows what an absolute monster of a player he was.

Would he have kept it up? Was that merely his trajectory (as he developed as a player) or as that always going to be his peak regardless of the injuries etc? We'll never know for sure, and that adds a bit of nostalgic romanticism to his greatness, that I will grant you.

Another thing we will never know is how much (if at all) the 98 World Cup did affect Ronaldo - Physically? Emotionally? Mentally?

What is for sure though is:

• By the time the 98 World Cup came around, and certainly following his last PSV season, a season at Barcelona, and a couple of Inter seasons in, by his late teens/early 20s, he was being talked about as possibly the greatest player ever. Don't make me laugh with Mbappe comparisons - a fantastic player in his own right, but Ronaldo had more talent in his pinky etc. The closest I have seen to this is Messi, but even he wasn't quite being talked about in those terms at that age, but certainly as a possible contender for the throne. (Caveat: there's no doubting that Cristiano, while extremely talented, was nowhere near in any kind of best player in the world discussions in his late teens/early 20s, merely a potential thing - which as you can imagine is very much a credit to what he became as an athlete and as a footballer). Anyone bringing up statistics of how Ronaldo didn't score a goal a game or had a greater number of goals than games played (like Messi/Ronaldo have to an extent) is an absolute fool who knows nothing about football. He was nearing a goal a game at PSV and Barcelona and then he moved to the most difficult league in the world for strikers and had a great season before the World Cup and then a half season before injury struck. Anyone bringing up trophies is also an absolute fool. In case you haven't realised, football IS a team sport.
• Before his injuries, he definitely grew as a football player. At PSV/Barcelona, he was very much a Mbappe-style player, except just better in every possible way. By the time he'd moved to Inter, he became a playmaker too to an extent (not quite what Messi is, but certainly more than most strikers are). So he was definitely capable of a better trajectory, not an Owen-style young prodigy (who was bloody good at what he did) but faded away once the pace went.
• Despite the two possible career threatening injuries, Ronaldo came back, won a World Cup, and for the next 3-4 seasons was one of the top 5 strikers in the world along with Henry, Shevchenko etc. Now if you only started following football around this period, this sounds absolutely crazy, but to get a better understanding of the amount of talent Ronaldo had, I'd say that the striker that came back and became 'only' one of the top 5 strikers in the world (along with someone as ridiculously good as Henry) was barely operating at 10% of what he was actually capable of.
• If he wins World Cup 98 (where he was the best player and top scorer before the final), he cements his legacy there and then, at the age of 21.

What is also for sure regarding Cristiano is that (and I don't think there can be any dispute about this) he's the greatest athlete football has ever seen.