You either never saw him play live or you're just on the wind-up.
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Ronaldinho: the greatest entertainer...
- Thread starter Ronaldo's ego
- Start date
He is a special case for me, obviously the likes of Messi/Maradona/Cristiano achieved more but none of them gave me the same goosebumps as Ronaldinho, however short that peak was.
He’s the reason I picked up a ball as a teenager and also why I started watching club football. Would have never been led to the good graces of Manchester United had it not been for his artistry.
There are career highlights of players shorter than this video. And this was one season FFS. The guy was on another level. Even Messi's magic can't touch this.
Turned 40 yesterday.
Always thought it was funny how the English went with the version that he tried to cross his goal vs them.
This footage to me proves it otherwise! streamable.com/98c1f
Always thought it was funny how the English went with the version that he tried to cross his goal vs them.
This footage to me proves it otherwise! streamable.com/98c1f
Donkey Seaman at your service. Was ridicilious how England had to rely on a 38 year old goalkeeper either way probably would have still lost the game but still you never know.
Fantastic player, but I do think he's a bit overrated. His peak was criminally short and he wasn't putting up the numbers even Neymar put up in La Liga. He is a legend for sure, but he's not even in the top 10. Definitely most entertaining player I've ever watched though.
Numbers again? Look at Lukaku's numbers in Premier League. Stats aren't everything in football
Skill 16 @ 2.33 is one of greatest moves I've seen any pull off on a football pitch.
He played against 4 times in his prime. It was as scary as it was mesmerising.
I thought it was well established that he wasn't going for goal? It definitely looked like he was trying to bend to the far corner.
I understand, but it's not just numbers, I got to follow R10's career since he played at PSG, actually had the privilege to see him play live a few times in Paris, and I just can't agree with anybody who ranks him in the top 10 of all-time, some even go as far as saying he's the GOAT because he's had two years where he was brilliant and just seemed to master the game as if he was a grown man playing against uncoordinated kids, but even in those two years he didn't push the game to its limit like a Messi/CR7 or even Neymar did when it came to results, he pushed it in style and creativity which resonates with people as well, but makes them lose perspective on the actual impact of a player, or those that came after. He was a beacon of hope for Barcelona as they were getting their golden generation together, but he helped put them on the map before that even happened and was a focal point where he could create something as soon as you gave him the ball. The problem was he was always bound to flame out, everybody in Paris knew how big of a party animal he was and how unprofessional he could be. I knew quite a few people who'd see him leaving the club at 4-5 AM (and sometimes he pushed it to the 7AM closing time) to go to training in a few hours. You can only burn bright for so long if you don't take the time to refuel. I don't claim stats are everything, but stats along with your actual recollection of the player tell a valid story. They're not everything, but they are valid.
For all the magic R10 had in his game, Neymar's got that as well, and blew his stats out of the water when he took over during Messi's injury. Now I know stats get some eye rolls around here, but they're just records of events in a game and while they can be twisted to fit certain narratives, they're still a good indication of what impact a player made with the role he had on the team. Lukaku's numbers in the premier league don't make stats ineffective so I'm not sure what your point is there, maybe that he was flat-track bully and put up his numbers against weaker opposition for the most part, but he still contributed to getting results. R10's had great games against great sides, but not enough in my view to put him so high on a pedestal of all-time greats, there's just too many actual all-time greats that get forgotten if you make space at the table for a guy like R10.
The biggest games of his careers, in my opinion, were the WC final in 2002 (where he was solid but didn't stand out like R9 or Rivaldo did, but he was still young), the CL final against Arsenal (where he didn't really show up, but they won), the World cup 1/4 final against France (where, again, he didn't show up and they lost when this was supposed to be his team to lead). Ronnie's never had a season close to that or what CR7/Messi/Neymar achieved. There's plenty of reasons beyond just the difference in their game for that, but it has to put a little bit of perspective on Ronnie's career when it comes to evaluating him next to the game's greats. Neymar is a better player than Ronnie ever was, but because people don't like his personality, antics, or career choices so they seem to dismiss him but there's no doubt in my mind that while Ronnie was the most fun I've had watching a player, he is nowhere near one of the bests in history.
Sorry for the long paragraphs, I was trying to save that by my simple statement earlier, but I'm self-quarantined and bored out of my skull.
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Leaves Nesta for dead. He really did make some of the best players look like mugs at times. Certainly the most talented player ever imo. On his day he was absolutely unplayable and he did with such flair as well.
Still watch videos of him on YouTube. If you missed him, you missed out. He did things that defied belief almost every game when he was at his peak.
He never should have gone to Barcelona.
If he'd come to Manchester under Fergie, Ronaldinho would have found it a lot harder to go off the rails and the manager could have eked an extra 3 or 4 top seasons out of him.
If he'd come to Manchester under Fergie, Ronaldinho would have found it a lot harder to go off the rails and the manager could have eked an extra 3 or 4 top seasons out of him.
A maverick with a touch above the rest. Ronaldihno didn't have longevity but at his peak he was ridiculous. Doesn't matter who you supported, he has worth watching. Had the ability to be anything, off the pitch distractions lost his focus. His Creative mind was a game changer, as good as anyone who played the game when on it. Signature flip flap(flapjack/elastico) how ever you describe it is his. A skill took for granted now but was insane when he was first doing it. People that never seen Ronaldihno maybe don't understand.
He was the definition of excitement, someone that should be shown to anyone who has an interest in the sport.
He was the definition of excitement, someone that should be shown to anyone who has an interest in the sport.
Or maybe he'd be depressed in England, would fight with SAF and end up a millionaire flop just because he wasn't loved/didn't have fun/ couldn't play footvolley on the beach, he was such a weird guy, no one knows how the story could be if he had signed for United or Real Madrid.
On topic, I'll only say that Ronaldinho was the main culprit why I resisted to completely fall in love with Messi for 5 years. Leo was great and all, but he didn't make football such a fun sport to watch as Ronaldinho, the joy of watching him play for your team at his peak... he really brought you to the tv, my ex-gf probably hates him because he made her watch more football in two seasons than she'll watch in the rest of her life
Or maybe he'd be depressed in England, would fight with SAF and end up a millionaire flop just because he wasn't loved/didn't have fun/ couldn't play footvolley on the beach, he was such a weird guy, no one knows how the story could be if he had signed for United or Real Madrid.
On topic, I'll only say that Ronaldinho was the main culprit why I resisted to completely fall in love with Messi for 5 years. Leo was great and all, but he didn't make football such a fun sport to watch as Ronaldinho, the joy of watching him play for your team at his peak... he really brought you to the tv, my ex-gf probably hates him because he made her watch more football in two seasons than she'll watch in the rest of her life
I kind of skipped over your message when quoting the same one you did and wrote the exact same thing, I mean almost word for word. Deleted to say I agree with you. I just couldn't see R10 being the same happy and free guy living in Manchester and I think it would have highly impacted his performances.
I admire Messi for what he can do with a ball, I respect Ronaldo's achievements, I'd pay just to see Ronaldinho every day of the week.
Ronaldinho peak is definitely higher than Neymar. He won everything with Barca being easily their best player in those 2 year peak, and being the unquestionably the best player in the world too. Same thing can’t be said about Neymar, although he is key player for Barca success, he was completely overshadow by Messi and Ronaldo during his prime unfortunately.
I put Neymar's '14-15 and '15-16 season on par with peak R10's impact, even if it was statistically superior to R10. When Messi was injured, Neymar was the talisman for Barcelona and took his game to a level that even R10 didn't reach. Also, I disagree that R10 was unquestionably the best player in the world, Thierry Henry was a very close competitor and actually contributed more to Arsenal reaching the CL final than R10 did the year they met, where R10 did not put on a performance in the final. Neymar has actually led Barcelona in CL goals and there is no remontada, arguably Barcelona's greatest comeback victory, without him. The fact that it gets constantly ignored, as example when you say he was completely overshadowed, is part of why he left.
i like him better than Messi and CR7, had the ability to decide games the way they did and dominated it in a way where you were simply left in awe. For 2 years i would definitely say that he was on their level, took the piss out of defenders the way i've not seen from anyone else since. Though you could say that his fall from grace was coming but you can't complain with that period from 2003-2007 where he was the best in the world, henry a not-so-close second.
Henry was superior for half of those years you listed. In '03-'04, Henry had the same amount of assist and 17 more goals.....17. Sure, he's a forward, but why the same amount of assists then?
Next season, he had one less assist than R10, and again 17 more goals than him. This is across all competitions.
2005-06 is where Ronnie was the best player in the world, with 26g/24a. Henry was more responsible in single-handedly dragging his team to a CL final against Barcelona, and had 33g/10a because he was pretty much putting them on his shoulders. You have to give it to Ronnie there though. With the next year also being a superior year but it was the last time R10 could be considered the best player in the world.
Again, stats aren't everything but they are the only thing without an opinion, and it's absolute revisionist history to claim Henry was a distant second.
Neymar peak season would be during 14-15 and 15-16, where he scored 39 and 31 goals respectively, and won CL in 14-15, being joint top scorer with Messi and Ronaldo with 10 goals.
Ronaldinho peak season would be 05-06 and 05-07, where he scored 26 and 24 goals respectively, and win CL in 05-06, being 2nd top goalscorer with 7 goals.
From stats alone it looks like Neymar is better, but let’s not forget Neymar is wing forward with one of all time best midfield support from Xavi and Ineista, and best assist provider in Messi. Whereas Ronaldinho is attacking midfielder and playmaker, his main role is to dictate play and create goals, so there’s comparatively less support from midfield for his goals.
In terms of individual honors, Ronaldinho won Ballon D’or once with majority of votes, and finish 3rd once too. Neymar finish 3rd twice, both occasion behind Messi and Ronaldo.
I’d say Ronaldinho is better, because of what he has achieved overall during his peak looks more impressive to me. Neymar never win the Ballon D’or once (never been the best player in the world at any point of his career) is also killer for me. Also, the way his style capture imagination of beautiful football, is much more impressive to me. Neymar is a great dibbler too, but his diving act doesn’t help much in people’s perceptions of him.
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Messi got injured in September 2015. He missed some CL matches, but it was the group stages against Bate Borisov and Leverkuson. They weren't exactly up against stellar competition. Besides you keep going back to stats, but note that stats improved across board for all attacking players so it's probably not meaningful to compare them like that, not to mention that their positions and roles were different. I've watched peak Ronaldinho in the CL against Chelsea in both 04/05 and 05/06. We had one of the best defences ever (let in only 12 goals for the whole season in the league), but he had our defence rattled.
And my contention is Neymar would have rattled that defense as well, and is capable of matching performances that R10 has put out at his peak. He is a superior player to R10 if we compare them overall. I can accept some will see R10's peak as being higher, I disagree with that and think the competition was nowhere near as extraordinary as what Neymar's had with extraterrestrials like CR7 and Messi. Timing has a lot to do with the perception of the two players, not to mention attitude, persona, etc.
You do have a point about a higher output from forwards since CR7 and Messi pushed the bar in that regard.
i disagree and say this having watched both of them play. i followed football more closely then than i do now. even the arsenal fans who wanted henry to win the ballon d'or knew who was actually the better, not unlike how almost all united fans knew henry was a better player than RvN even though they never admitted it. for all your reiterations about stats not being everything you sure keep reading a lot into them to reinforce your argument never mind that it is not always in the context of what actually happened nor does it take into account that R10s stats themselves were quite impressive for 3 years. don't be the sort to say that Gerrard and lampard are better than Scholes and Robson because they got more goals and assists or that Xavi and iniesta weren't as good as people thought because the stats didn't show them to be as good as people say they are.
Personally, I feel Ronaldinho can be a tad overrated but that is simply not true. Barca took out Chelsea and Milan who were by far the toughest opposition that year enroute to the final. Without Ronaldinho, they wouldn't even have made it past the first round. And some moments he produced were absolutely iconic. Steamrolling over English lion Terry to score the opener against Chelsea. Against Milan he left Gattuso on his arse before producing an incredibe chipped assist to Giuly. In the final he was invisible but Henry hardly covered himself in glory after missing a slew of chances.
I'm not really sure what you're basing your contention on. Do you remember/have you seen the matches I'm talking about? I very much doubt Neymar would have replicated those performances. And I love Neymar, and I think a lot of people don't appreciate his skillset for various reasons (some not even related to football).
I wouldn't compare the players you mentioned because I didn't really follow any other club than Arsenal back then in the Premier League, and loved La Liga. I don't know what the fans thought, but I believe Henry more than proved he was a superior player to R10 during the years I mentioned, again we can all have our opinions but the stats are pretty clear as far as impact alone on the outcomes of games.
And we both remember that time differently, I remember a lot of outrage at Henry not winning the Player of the year in 2004 or the Ballon d'Or in '05. He deserved it over Ronnie in both those trophies, but again it's just an opinion many had.
Good examples, and I've already agreed that this was the year Ronnie was the best player in the world, but I can also throw Henry's goal against Real Madrid in the mix and the fact he had a much, much, much poorer side to play with. They both left a lot to be desired in the final, which is a shame because we had been looking forward to the two battling it out because they were considered on the same level, even if Ronnie was the better player at that time, I'll stick with Henry being the better player the years before than final.
Yes, I'm far old enough that I do remember, it's all silly conjecture to begin with. I remember him bowling over Terry, Neymar would definitely not have done that, but I believe he would have found plenty of other ways to rattle their defense if we just swapped them with a time machine. There's nothing to indicate he couldn't, which I'm surprised you disagree with if you appreciate his skillset. He absolutely could make an impact, none of the defenders on that Chelsea team are keeping up with him speed-wise, he'd probably get fouled all over the pitch (and maybe get injured?), who knows? As I said, it's all a silly debate, but I believe people over-estimate Ronnie's standing in the history of the game, and I just think even a guy that gets easily dismissed like Neymar because he either played with Messi, or is now in a farmer's league, is simply already a superior player to R10, but not enough people seem willing to agree or accept that.
Henry was never superior to Ronaldinho during his peak years. Nobody was even close to Ronaldinho, never mind superior.
I mean Ronaldinho was clearly the better player in the previous year/season too. Is this even controversial?
henry did no such thing or else the tide wouldn't have been so overwhelmingly in favor of Dinho for those years, in 05/06 especially where the big reason for Arsenal making it that far was Fabregas and not Henry and Dinho had his best season of his career. if at all he had a chance it was in 2004 where Arsenal went invincible in the league and Barca had a pretty meh season but even then you had enough of Dinho's brilliance throught the season to swing it in his favor. in general a comparison of 2 players x and y playing in the same position isn't concluded by just referring to G+A numbers, even if i decide to humor you and assume in this case that they both played exactly the same position. If you actually had bothered to examine their respective 'impact' you wouldn't even be debating this frankly, makes me think that you either don't like R10 for some reason or didn't watch/follow football those few years. It's not often - ever? - that the Bernabeu crowd give a Barca player applause despite seeing him destroy their team.
I mean, I honestly don't care about the invidivudal awards, and I think it's the lowest hanging fruit in a debate to compare two players when we all have seen countless examples that it's a political and commercial sham. Ronnie with Nike as the next best Brazilian that sounds like Ronaldo and plays in such a beautiful way, with CGI commercials making him look like Superman? There's a whole campaign beyond his football on the field that wasn't close to with anybody else. He was a commercial cash cow and that stuff will have more impact than the performances, otherwise Henry wins it in 2004 easily. There's far more I could get into when it comes to awards or plenty of examples when many reasons outside of football influence who gets recognized in a silly award, but I'd just be derailing the thread even further.
And I actually love R10, had his jersey, watched hours of videos on him, followed him since PSG bought him from Gremio, was as fascinated as the next fan by him. I just think he is overrated because consistency has to count for something and Henry was better than him in 2004 and before. He wasn't more fun or entertaining or skilled, but he was a better player.
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he became a commercial 'cash cow' because of how agreeable and impressive his style of play was despite how he looked and how good he was in that time. you've got that backwards by making it seem like he only won it because of some popularity contest which was to his advantage by being the face of Nike and Joga Bonito. No one rates Kaka that highly for example. and these individual awards may not mean anything to you but a player with a mediocre season won't win it with either fellow players or football writers adjudicating on it. That can generally happen only when you have impact above and beyond stat numbers like passing completion, take-ons, key passes and goals/ assists. Cannavaro is an outlier where the wc had a larger than normal bearing on the award.
i really don't know what to tell you tbh, R10 and his ability to entertain while being effective is one of the game's axioms if you can call it that. the only shame for us was how fleeting it was.
And now you're even downplaying how good Chelsea's defence was at the time...
You are severely underrating that Arsenal team. It was the invincibles on its final year but they were still an extremely good team and also had the best defence in CL that year. They hold the record for most clean sheets in a single CL season even after all these years.
If anything, I thought Rijkaard's Barcelona were extremely overrated during that period.