Rojo & Jones Must Continue as First Choice

Dir Wangem said:
No. This was literally 1 argument among 6. The whole point of making a list in the first place was because one point alone doesn't hold a valid argument to keep both of them out of the starting XI.

Take away the influence of Carrick, the team clicking better, DDG's top saves, Rojo's murderous tackles and the fact that Smalling and Bailly are better players(imo), then yeah, it wouldn't matter who they played.
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Why would I take away the influence of Carrick? Is he going somewhere? If you apply logic like this you can discredit a majority of players, not just at United, but elsewhere.

Maybe they're part of the reason the team is clicking better? That's certainly possible since we still looked shaky at the back even when Carrick was in the team previously.

What top saves has DDG made that has saved them from the embarrassment of a misake of their own doing? Really struggling to think of one. DDG was much busier last season.

Rojo has made some awful challenges and needs to clean that up.

Smalling has been out of form and been on the pitch for some of our worst defensive performances this season. He has to prove himself when he gets the opportunity just like Jones and Rojo have. Bailly I agree is better, but again, is a victim of the fact that Jones and Rojo took advantage of his injury and made that spot in the team their own. Like Smalling he will get opportunities to reclaim that spot when their form dips, injuries occur or if he impresses when Mourinho rotates the squad.
 
Ban said:
I don't get it, what else they should do with the ball, charge forward?
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It is not rocket sience...

They should set up the play by picking out a good pass and doing it quick to have tempo in our build up, especially when they have time to do it and aren't under pressure. And even when under pressure they should try and search for the footballing solution before hoofing it away.

But when they have the ball they are just incapable of playing it in a decent matter that could set up a swift attack and bring tempo in our game. When under pressure they hoof it away and we lose possesion. When not under pressure, you see them look and walk with the ball and walk some more, pass it sideways to eachother before realising they just aren't going to find that good pass because they waisted so much time on the ball the opponent has organised its entire defence again. Then either Pogba or Carrick has to run deep to get the ball and build up the game in their stead or they pass it to DDG and leave it to him to kick the ball away. That is basically 90% of what happens when either Jones or Rojo is on the ball. The other 10% being that they do something stupid and lose it anyway.

Your build up play starts with your centrebacks who recycle possesion and bring the ball back into play. Our centrebacks just aren't good footballers when on the ball and therefore suck in this apsect. The build up is way to slow because they always have to give it to somebody else to do the build up for them, hence waisting to much time. Time which lets the opponent reorganize its defence and makes it harder for us to find space to set up an attack.
 
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Sir A1ex said:
Smalling's not done well enough this season to merit being brought straight back in without having to fight very hard for it. But the revisionism about him in this thread is crazy. A year ago everybody was convinced he was one of the few top players we had, and well on his way to becoming the best in England!:lol:
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I still think he is a very good defender. I have never thought he was world class but a very good defender nonetheless. Also he has given this team much more than Jones who has been the schoolbook example of an unreliable player. He has been just always injurred. Let's forget for a moment that Jones's performances aren't even near what we have seen from Smalling when he was in top form, the mere fact he is injurred so often is reason enough not make him a starting pick. We just can't depend on Jones, the moment our defence is build upon him and he gets injurred for a long period again, we are in a pickle. I have seen so very little of Jones in the last 3 years, he was very close to the exit doors for me, in fact he still is. We just have no use for a centreback who is made of glass and is always injurred. I want to be able to rely on a centreback that plays week in week out and I have trouble envisioning that with Jones. He first needs to prove he is an actual footballer again and can stay fit for an extended period of time and don't fall back in injurries that sideline him for months. When he can do it, he can be considered as an alternative option to compete with Smalling and Bailly, both players that ar far ahead of him in terms of quality imo.

In my view it isn't even a question if Jones should be a starting pick. It is a question if he even has a future here at United because he was very close to the exit doors in the summer, now if he can stay fit for a long period and play himself into good form that situation can change but for me it is far too early to say that has happend already. For me the starting centrebacks are still Bailly and Smalling because both have previously shown so much more than Jones, It would be an outrage to not give them playing time when fully fit. When they are all fit, it is a matter who is better that determines who should start. Right now I'd say we have seen what Jones can bring, when Bailly and Smalling are fit, I want a few games to see what they can bring and if it is better than Jones, they should play instead of him and if it is not than Jones should play again. But far too early to settle upon a starting pair of centrebacks and certainly too say that Jones has become incontournable for this team.
 
Bailly is first choice as soon as he's back from cup of nations. Rojo and Jones till then.

Mourinho will sell Smalling in the summer. We will sign a CB to partner Bailly and unless a ridiculous offer for Rojo or Jones comes in, Smalling will be the one to make way.
 
Snow said:
In professional sports I think 7cm is a big difference.
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It isn't exactly 7 cm as I don't think wikipedia is spot on here. And in any case that isn't a huge difference, this isn't basketball and Jones is stronger and quicker than Rojo IMO.
 
Smalling is only good enough for a team like West Ham. Its funny that when hes at fault for a goal (and he has been many times), everyone makes excuses for him but yet Rojo only gave away one penalty last season and everyone has been hanging onto it and mugging him off ever since.

It's ridiculous.

Some people don't want to admit they're wrong but the fact is, Rojo is the better player and has outperformed Smalling. The only reason Smalling looked so good last season was because LVG told the team to keep the ball at any circumstances, even if it means not going for a goal. And Blind's calmness was a big help. It amazes me that some people geniunely think he should be captain. He's not even a vocal player... his only attributes are literally his height and physicality. He's like a fast(ish) Fellaini at the back. He lacks quality on the ball.
 
Rojo and Jones our best partnership at christmas - another feather in the cap of the red cafe geniuses to predict the exact opposite of what will happen haha
 
Jaybomb said:
Smalling is only good enough for a team like West Ham. Its funny that when hes at fault for a goal (and he has been many times), everyone makes excuses for him but yet Rojo only gave away one penalty last season and everyone has been hanging onto it and mugging him off ever since.

It's ridiculous.

Some people don't want to admit they're wrong but the fact is, Rojo is the better player and has outperformed Smalling. The only reason Smalling looked so good last season was because LVG told the team to keep the ball at any circumstances, even if it means not going for a goal. And Blind's calmness was a big help. It amazes me that some people geniunely think he should be captain. He's not even a vocal player... his only attributes are literally his height and physicality. He's like a fast(ish) Fellaini at the back. He lacks quality on the ball.
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Yet LVG and several pundits called him the leader at the back for United. Mourinho has given him the captains armband as well (he's within his rights to give it to any other player in Rooney's absence but everytime Smalling started this season in the absence of Rooney it was given to him over the likes of Mata).
 
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No one should be a guaranteed started among our CBs. Yes, even Bailly. We have a nice mix of aggression, agility, passing and strength across our four CBs and Blind. Everyone should get their shot if they deserve it and if the situation calls for it.

That said, Rojones is also my first choice for the time being.
 
Everything must go
Romeo must die
This must be the place
40 books you absolutely must read
Do what you must
Rojo and Jones must continue.
 
Jaybomb said:
Smalling is only good enough for a team like West Ham. Its funny that when hes at fault for a goal (and he has been many times), everyone makes excuses for him but yet Rojo only gave away one penalty last season and everyone has been hanging onto it and mugging him off ever since.

It's ridiculous.

Some people don't want to admit they're wrong but the fact is, Rojo is the better player and has outperformed Smalling. The only reason Smalling looked so good last season was because LVG told the team to keep the ball at any circumstances, even if it means not going for a goal. And Blind's calmness was a big help. It amazes me that some people geniunely think he should be captain. He's not even a vocal player... his only attributes are literally his height and physicality. He's like a fast(ish) Fellaini at the back. He lacks quality on the ball.
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The only ridiculous thing is how you go to such great lengths to heap praise on Rojo and discredit Smalling. Tone your bias down a little, it's getting really boring reading these agenda driven posts.
 
Loublaze said:
Smalling won 121 aerial duels last season. More than anyone else in the team and one of the highest in the league
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Stats never tell the whole story. Last year we were vulnerable to set pieces and crosses, this year in the last month with Rojo/Jones we have not been. That is not based on stats, that is based on my own eyes and watching the games. Last year we had to play Fellaini to help address this problem, if Smalling won a lot of aerial duels it is probably because we were aerially bombarded by teams who knew we were vulnerable there, hence inflating the stats.

Now it may be the real problem was Blind and not Smalling and hence it is unfair to single Smalling out for these problems, but that is why this discussion is about central defence partnerships, not the individuals. And the Jones/Rojo partnership works and must continue.
 
RedRoach said:
Stats never tell the whole story. Last year we were vulnerable to set pieces and crosses, this year in the last month with Rojo/Jones we have not been. That is not based on stats, that is based on my own eyes and watching the games. Last year we had to play Fellaini to help address this problem, if Smalling won a lot of aerial duels it is probably because we were aerially bombarded by teams who knew we were vulnerable there, hence inflating the stats.

Now it may be the real problem was Blind and not Smalling and hence it is unfair to single Smalling out for these problems, but that is why this discussion is about central defence partnerships, not the individuals. And the Jones/Rojo partnership works and must continue.
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Well your eyes are deceiving you. Smalling is markedly better than both Jones and Rojo in the air. I argued this when Jones and Blind were starting together at the beginning of last pre season and I maintain it now, Jones needs a partner that can really head the ball, because he struggles. Rondon was allowed a free header and should have scored as recently as last weekend, for example.

Smalling is an outstanding defensive header of the ball. It's so clear and has been since he started playing here. He won lots of headers last season because he was good at doing so. It was nothing to do with Fellaini, who was far from a regular either.

Jones and Rojo, while having other good attributes, struggle with this side of the game. Jones, so much so, that he has to take a running jump of about five metres to win headers. When he misjudges the flight, the ball then sails over his head and the opposition are in behind.

Our defense is beginning to look better under Mourinho and that would be the case irrespective of personnel. That's not to take anything away from Jones and Rojo, who are defending well, but a settled, well-drilled side will defend well even if Smalling and Bailly were at the back. Or Shaw instead of Darmian.

I'm happy to continue with Jones and Rojo for the time being, but it will take a lot more than a few good games to change my mind on what I've been watching for a good number of years. Smalling is still a better, more reliable defender than both. Bailly looks excellent and by the looks of things we're going to be bringing in another centre half in a couple of weeks time.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the selection has completely reversed itself come February.
 
RedRoach said:
Stats never tell the whole story. Last year we were vulnerable to set pieces and crosses, this year in the last month with Rojo/Jones we have not been. That is not based on stats, that is based on my own eyes and watching the games. .
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121 headers cleared full stop. Its not a deceptive stat like chances created or pass completion for instance. Do you know many headed clearances Fellani made last season? 48 total to Smallings 121. I don't know what your eyes are showing you
 
I think it's cute this thread presupposes Jones doesn't get hurt and Rojo doesn't turn back into a pumpkin.

I think Jones is good. Just made of glass and staying fit is a skill. Rojo seems much better as a CB but I don't trust him and would prefer Bailly, Smalling or Blind.
 
Rojo can't be first choice. Had referees done their jobs correctly we'd have been down to ten twice in the last few weeks and potentially dropped more points. He's mostly played extremely well, but not well enough to balance the risk of red cards.
 
Kag said:
I'm happy to continue with Jones and Rojo for the time being, but it will take a lot more than a few good games to change my mind on what I've been watching for a good number of years. Smalling is still a better, more reliable defender than both. Bailly looks excellent and by the looks of things we're going to be bringing in another centre half in a couple of weeks time.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the selection has completely reversed itself come February.
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That's how I see it as well. For now I expect that Jones and Rojo will continue being first choice central defence, and rightfully so. They've done well, far better than expected (particularly Rojo). With Bailly going off to ACON in the not too distant future, I don't think Mourinho will be in a rush to break up the current partnership. And Smalling is back to where he was at the beginning of the season. Coming off an injury, with the players ahead of him playing well enough that there's no real reason to change it up.

But ultimately, I consider Bailly and Smalling to be capable of reaching a higher level of performance. The only potential problem is that they both prefer the right side, so I'm not sure if Smalling (who seems to be the one who is pushed over) will be able to show his best on the left. But then again, Jones has the exact same issue (probably more so, as whenever they've played together it was always Smalling who was moved to the left), and I just can't see Rojo keeping up this current level that he's playing at. If he proves me wrong, great. And even then his couple of horror challenges have left a further question mark over him.
 
Long it may continue. Today i did not feel scared once even though, Sunderland has got some physical players.
 
Bailly will eventually take Rojo's place, no doubt.

Jones however I've always considered more talented than Smalling but his injuries and rashness have continuously fecked up his progression. I see no reason why he can't keep Smalling out of the team if he sorts those out.
 
ash_86 said:
Long it may continue. Today i did not feel scared once even though, Sunderland has got some physical players.
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To be fair I felt scared when Anichebe was able to match up in an aerial battle against a full back (especially Blind). I can't have any complaints about Rojo and Jones today though. They have been an important part of the recent good run of form for the team.
 
I'm not really sure why many people are saying that Bailly will take Rojo's spot and that Jones will continue in the team. I've felt that during this recent run of games that Rojo has been quite a bit better than Jones. Jones had the edge in the first match in this run, and from memory there was one other, but otherwise Rojo has seemed the more dominant and better defender. Plus Rojo plays on the left, whereas both Bailly and Jones strongly favour the right (to the extent that Smalling has been the one to move to the left whenever partnering either of them).
 
Carolina Red said:
Makes me wonder how big of an influence Jose and his assistants are making in the training of these players. Is Rojo just having a bright spot or is what we are seeing the more long lasting results of the level of coaches Jose has brought into the club?
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Think Rojo is a little underrated here. He is a starter for Argentina after all, and has been for the last 2-3 years
 
Massive Spanner said:
Bailly will eventually take Rojo's place, no doubt.

Jones however I've always considered more talented than Smalling but his injuries and rashness have continuously fecked up his progression. I see no reason why he can't keep Smalling out of the team if he sorts those out.
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Completely disagree. There is no hierarchy except whatever is working for us at the moment. If it continues working then Jones and Rojo will continue to be our CBs.
 
Have they both surpassed Smalling in the pecking order?
 
Carolina Red said:
Makes me wonder how big of an influence Jose and his assistants are making in the training of these players. Is Rojo just having a bright spot or is what we are seeing the more long lasting results of the level of coaches Jose has brought into the club?
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Since joining the club, there is a pretty clear pattern of Rojo performing reasonably competently as a central defender when given the opportunity. The fact that he has typically been poor as a left-back confuses the issue, especially as he made just 1 start as a central defender last season, compared to 24 as left-back. In his first season, 16 starts as a central defender, 8 as a left-back. Had Rojo played well as a left-back this season then that would have been a surprise and perhaps an indication of superior coaching.
 
kundalini said:
Since joining the club, there is a pretty clear pattern of Rojo performing reasonably competently as a central defender when given the opportunity. The fact that he has typically been poor as a left-back confuses the issue, especially as he made just 1 start as a central defender last season, compared to 24 as left-back. In his first season, 16 starts as a central defender, 8 as a left-back. Had Rojo played well as a left-back this season then that would have been a surprise and perhaps an indication of superior coaching.
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Maybe I just got so used to seeing him put in poor shifts at LB that I forgot his better performances at CB in LVG's first season.
 
Infordin said:
Have they both surpassed Smalling in the pecking order?
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It's personal reference. IMO, they have. Smalling had been mild since his beast mode early last season. Smalling's showing before his injury was not on par with recent Rojo and Jones' under Mourinho.
 
I still think our strong midfield has contributed a lot to solidity in defence and I'd still take Bailly and Smalling over them but as long as they continue performing on a good level they should stay as first choice pair of CBs.
 
To be fair I felt that they were a bit edgy today, especially Rojo.
 
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