Robson or Keane?

[Ole'sbodyguard]

I agree, but not sure if Robbo was less of a boozer or just more symbolically important. And he could really onnly hold on to one of them.

I don't doubt Robbo was symbolically important. But if Fergie was convinced his drinking was a bad example he would have shifted him eventually not kept him his entire career. Robbo was redundant playing wise when Ince finally realised his potential around the start of 92/93 season and when we had Webb and Ince there was a potentially title winning combination there on paper at the time. Fergie had plenty of times when he could have shifted Robbo after Mcgrath and Whiteside left.

Robbo had to be less of a boozer than Paul Mcgrath. Mcgrath was a genuine alcoholic whose problems with drinking were manifest and almost finished his career and life. Mcgrath turned up to training pissed and has been a mess in his personal life due to drink on numerous occasions.

Whiteside, as Fergie says in his AB, was frequently injured and went along for the ride with Mcgrath as his best mate.

I'm not saying Robbo was a saint but he was properly not to far off what alot of footballers of that generation were. Even the likes of Shilton, most capped player, winner of the European cup twice, league once and once the world's best keeper drank on away trips with England(one story in Robbo's AB is that he broke his nose one night when he said something personal). The other two, particilarly Mcgrath, were different.

 

[moses]

I agree again, just that I always felt Robbo may not have been kept with the same drink levels if he wasn't the club captain, and England captain to boot.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

But Robson gets the respect he deserves, but with Roy I just don't feel the love.

The main reason for that is that Robbo speaks with massive affection for United and has done ever since he signed for us in 81. He speaks fondly of the club, the fans, the players and the manager. He's my generation's Bobby Charlton.

Keane, despite his huge contributions on the pitch, does not speak with much affection for United since he has left and has criticised certain aspects of the club and manager about his departure.

That's always going to colour people's opinions in a thread like this.

Robbo is like Eric Cantona. Genuinally loves the club.

 

[Mick1991]

The main reason for that is that Robbo speaks with massive affection for United and has done ever since he signed for us in 81. He speaks fondly of the club, the fans, the players and the manager. He's my generations Bobby Charlton.

Keane, despite his huge contributions on the pitch, does not speak with much affection for United since he has left and has criticised certain aspects of the club and manager about his departure.

That's always going to colour people's opinions in a thread like this.

Yep that was the same conclusion that was came to in the Keane thread. People were giving the token gesture that he was a great player and then calling him a cnut, that is stepping way over the mark when talking about one of the greats to have played for this club.

Yes he has done bad things but so has Robson (I don't want to sully this thread by going into them). When Roy was talking about the Prawn sandwich brigade or sticking it to Viera he was a legend and everybody loved Roy's honesty, he was the man. But when he is no longer giving us 100% on the pitch the view suddenly changes and he is called despicable things by United fans.

And the excuse is that because he doesn't look back with teary eyes and a heavy heart at his achievements at the club. He has moved on, that is no reason to completely disrespect the man. Fans talk about loyalty an awful lot but they are only loyal when it suits them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Keane's a complex and difficult character to love, Robson much more straightforward.

I can see why one divides opinions and the other gets nothing but adulation.

Still don't understand the hatred for Keane from some of our fans. Weird.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Yep that was the same conclusion that was came to in the Keane thread. People were giving the token gesture that he was a great player and then calling him a cnut, that is stepping way over the mark when talking about one of the greats to have played for this club.

Yes he has done bad things but so has Robson (I don't want to sully this thread by going into them). When Roy was talking about the Prawn sandwich brigade or sticking it to Viera he was a legend and everybody loved Roy's honesty, he was the man. But when he is no longer giving us 100% on the pitch the view suddenly changes and he is called despicable things by United fans.

And the excuse is that because he doesn't look back with teary eyes and a heavy heart at his achievements at the club. He has moved on, that is no reason to completely disrespect the man. Fans talk about loyalty an awful lot but they are only loyal when it suits them.

Calling him a cnut is stepping over the line. I would not disrespect him either due to his playing days but it is going rangle a few people why he tries to distance himself from the club and is critical of aspects of it after years of good service. That's just natural.

However, I don't think United fans make moral judgments on past players for their personal lives or conduct. What you call the excuse is for me the main criteria supporters use to judge the affections of their former greats. Robbo has not once said a bad word against United. Quite the contrary he clearly loves the club.

Keane's made a determined effort to distance himself from United and being fairly criticial of Fergie at times. He's open about having little emotional attachement to the club. I think Pogue is right he is a more complex character but I don't think that matters much in the grand scheme of things. Put simply United supporters are going have more affection and feeling for one of their own than someone who does not feel the same way about the club they do.

A fairly simple example clarifies the point for me. If you asked ten United fans who had seen both play I'd wager that nine out of ten would frankly admit Ronaldo was a better player than Eric Cantona. If you asked ten United fans who they liked more or who was the bigger United legend or who they remember more fondly(whatever subjective criteria you use for that) I'd wager nine out of ten would say Eric Cantona.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah but those same nine would speak about Ronaldo with more affection than Keane, despite one player giving his best years and running his body into the ground (almost literally) for the club and the other buggering off to a big pay-day in the sun before he'd even turned 25 years old.

Also worth noting that even Ronaldo played more games (and scored more goals) than Cantona.

All of which is much harder to explain IMO.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Yeah but those same nine would speak about Ronaldo with more affection than Keane, despite one player giving his best years and running his body into the ground (almost literally) for the club and the other buggering off to a big pay-day in the sun before he'd even turned 25 years old.

Which is a paradox IMO.

I think you are exagerating the point here Pogue.

I don't think the Keane disrespect is that severe.

He's certainly gone down a fair few notches last couple of years but most people will still remember his time fondly and what he did I'd say.

Personally I got more respect for Keane for his years than I have for Ronaldo despite respecting both. Keane really was a magnificent player for United.

 

[Mick1991]

Calling him a cnut is stepping over the line.

However, I don't think United fans make moral judgments on past players for their personal lives or conduct. What you call the excuse is for me the main criteria supporters use to judge the affections of their former greats. Robbo has not once said a bad word against United. Quite the contrary he clearly loves the club.

Keane's made a determined effort to distance himself from United and being fairly criticial of Fergie at times. He's open about having little emotional attachement to the club. I think Pogue is right he is a more complex character but I don't think that matters much in the grand scheme of things. Put simply United supporters are going have more affection and feeling for one of their own than someone who does not feel the same way about the club they do.

A fairly simple example clarifies the point for me. If you asked ten United fans who had seen both play I'd wager that nine out of ten would frankly admit Ronaldo was a better player than Eric Cantona. If you asked ten United fans who they liked more or who was the bigger United legend or who they remember more fondly(whatever subjective criteria you use for that) I'd wager nine out of ten would say Eric Cantona.

Yep that is pretty spot on but it just baffle's me what some United fans say about him. It seems a case of short memories also.

But his attitude made him what he was on the field, it made him the winner that he was and United fans were delighted to take Roy's attitude even bask in it. If you try and enter the Ronaldo thread and say something about him being a greedy player(nothing offensive) fans run to his rescue. Roy did way more for this club than Ronaldo but it seems to be forgotten.

The o.p did have one thing right when he said that the Irish would pick Roy, because in the Roy Keane thread as far as I could see only Irish people stuck up for Roy that left me a little miffed if I'm being honest.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think you are exagerating the point here Pogue.

I don't think the Keane disrespect is that severe.

He's certainly gone down a fair few notches last couple of years but most people will still remember his time fondly and what he did I'd say.

Personally I got more respect for Keane for his years than I have for Ronaldo despite respecting both. Keane really was a magnificent player for United.

I might be exaggerating a bit but there's some real hositility for Keane on this website. Doubt it's representative of the broader fan-base but it is kind of shocking.

 

[samabachan]

An interesting question might be how Gerrard compares to Keane and Robbo - almost certainly ground that's been covered before but what do older caftards think? I think if Gerrard had been around in Robson's day he would possibly even have been thought of as the better player, but the game has changed so much in every single aspect since then that it's hard to even compare them any more.

 

[Boss]

An interesting question might be how Gerrard compares to Keane and Robbo - almost certainly ground that's been covered before but what do older caftards think? I think if Gerrard had been around in Robson's day he would possibly even have been thought of as the better player, but the game has changed so much in every single aspect since then that it's hard to even compare them any more.

Gerrard doesn't compre at all

 

[moses]

Keane is fair game on here because of the nature of the modern fan, those of us who grew up watching Robbo heard he was a bit of a boozer but it was more in the way of 'what a bloke, did you see how good he was with a hangover'. Keane is of a generation that we feel every thread that makes up their fabric is up for criticism. Sure some of the nonsense on here concerning Rooney was incredible. I've never met a cross section of football fans to resemble a gossip circle as the caf does. That said, most football fans I know are of the same vintage as myself.

This combined with Ole'sbodyguard's point about how both spoke of the club subsequently. I get the Ronaldo/Cantona paralell to a point, because Ronaldo did appear to have Ronaldo as number one on his list of priorities, not so with Roy, he always put the team first, so for me nothing ekse matters, and he deserves better than the nonsense Pogue is speaking of.

 

[Boss]

Keane is fair game on here because of the nature of the modern fan, those of us who grew up watching Robbo heard he was a bit of a boozer but it was more in the way of 'what a bloke, did you see how good he was with a hangover'. Keane is of a generation that we feel every thread that makes up their fabric is up for criticism. Sure some of the nonsense on here concerning Rooney was incredible. I've nver met a cross section of football fans to resemble a gossip circle as the caf does. That said, most football fans I know are of the same vintage as myself.

This combined with Ole'sbodyguard's point about how both spoke of the club subsequently. I get the Ronaldo/Cantona paralell to a point, because Ronaldo did appear to have Ronaldo as number one on his list of priorities, not so with Roy, he always put the team first, so for me nothing ekse matters, and he deserves better than the nonsense Pogue is speaking of.

very true

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Keane is fair game on here because of the nature of the modern fan, those of us who grew up watching Robbo heard he was a bit of a boozer but it was more in the way of 'what a bloke, did you see how good he was with a hangover'. Keane is of a generation that we feel every thread that makes up their fabric is up for criticism. Sure some of the nonsense on here concerning Rooney was incredible. I've never met a cross section of football fans to resemble a gossip circle as the caf does. That said, most football fans I know are of the same vintage as myself.

This combined with Ole'sbodyguard's point about how both spoke of the club subsequently. I get the Ronaldo/Cantona paralell to a point, because Ronaldo did appear to have Ronaldo as number one on his list of priorities, not so with Roy, he always put the team first, so for me nothing ekse matters, and he deserves better than the nonsense Pogue is speaking of.

The Ronaldo/Cantona parallel really is for the basic point of how both Eric and Robbo have spoke about the club after leaving and the clear affection they have for it. It's not a comparison of Keane or Ronaldo's personalities that would not work at all. Keane was the ultimate team man. Unquestionably.

Personally I have masses of respect for Roy Keane. Same way I have huge respect for Peter Schmeichel. But I don't have the same emotional attachment to them as the likes of Robbo, Eric Cantona, Scholes and Giggs. For me, this latter group tick the boxes of being great players(hence massive respect) and also always speak fondly of United. The best of both if you like.

I agree some of the stuff which is spoke about Keane is odd and the name calling but I felt the same way about Hughes when he used to get called a cnut on here every other week when he managed City and Blackburn.

 

[moses]

I agree some of the stuff which is spoke about Keane is odd and the name calling but I felt the same way about Hughes when he used to get called a cnut on here every other week when he managed City and Blackburn.

Yep, I still find that odd, he was a hero of mine.

 

[Boss]

The Ronaldo/Cantona parallel really is for the basic point of how both Eric and Robbo have spoke about the club after leaving and the clear affection they have for it. It's not a comparison of Keane or Ronaldo's personalities that would not work at all. Keane was the ultimate team man. Unquestionably.

Personally I have masses of respect for Roy Keane. Same way I have huge respect for Peter Schmeichel. But I don't have the same emotional attachment to them as the likes of Robbo, Eric Cantona, Scholes and Giggs. For me, this latter group tick the boxes of being great players(hence massive respect) and also always speak fondly of United. The best of both if you like.

I agree some of the stuff which is spoke about Keane is odd and the name calling but I felt the same way about Hughes when he used to get called a cnut on here every other week when he managed City and Blackburn.

Indeed, Hughes gets called a cnut on here so much that people were forgetting what his real name is, yet there wasn't no real moral outrage to it.

It's all about favourites at the end of the day on here.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Indeed, Hughes gets called a cnut on here so much that people were forgetting what his real name is, yet there wasn't no real moral outrage to it.

It's all about favourites at the end of the day on here.

Plenty of people stuck up for Hughes.

I was one of them.

I honestly don't know how anyone who saw Hughes play for United could call him a cnut for managing Blackburn. The Citeh stuff was more understandable but it started in those days.

 

[jojojo]

I might be exaggerating a bit but there's some real hositility for Keane on this website. Doubt it's representative of the broader fan-base but it is kind of shocking.

Hmmm. I think it's little more than the usual thing - people (both sides of the argument) exaggerate to make a point. Quote Keane as a honest player and you'll get Haaland thrown back. Offer Keane as a potential United manager, you'll get some quotes from Sunderland players and directors about how it all ended.

Add to that the way he left and it's hard for some fans to place him in context. He wanted to complain about teammates not delivering - fair enough. Unfortunately the complaint came at a time when his own performances were on the decline and he was accused of being part of the malaise because team formations had been changed to accommodate his declining fitness.

Football's an emotional business and sometimes you need distance.

Personally, I remember going mental because Robson could play out of his skin for England and then come home and be injured and/or mediocre for United. Long time ago now though, so I choose to forget those days.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

I'd say Robson was better but I wouldn't argue with anyone who said Keane. One aspect of Robson's game that's often overlooked is what a good passer of the ball he was.

Robson is one of the best midfielders I have ever seen at United...he had everything. I also think he was a better captain.

Bloody hell Peter.....it seems like we agree!

 

[peterstorey]

Bloody hell Peter.....it seems like we agree!

We always agree... apart from when you're talking rubbish.

 

[peterstorey]

Keane's a complex and difficult character to love, Robson much more straightforward.

I can see why one divides opinions and the other gets nothing but adulation.

When I first started work there was a charming old-school duffer who used to say: 'He's a fully paid-up member of the awkward squad'. Usually that was about someone who was talented but didn't play the politics or have much charm. That's Keane - but who cares - he was an exceptionally good player.

 

[Youngie]

Christ that's a hard one!
Robbo was the better all round player but Keano less injury prone and a more single-minded winning mentality...

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Keane everytime for me. There is no doubt the God like Gloss that Keane had disappeared a little due to the way in which he left the club and also the honest comments he has made since have not done himself any favours with the fans. Some of his shocking tackles lost him a few fans also. If Keane had always just said what the fans wanted to hear like some lick ass players do then he would be up there with Cantona as our greatest ever player. Fergie says he was the most influential player to play under him. He was not injured half as much as Robson. Bossed games probably a little more than Robson did, was more of aleader than Robson and equally had an eye for a goal like Robson.
In saying that though you cant really say one was better than the other. Its a bit like deciding which of Giggs, Best and Ronaldo was the best winger!! Or whrther Vidic was better than Stam!! You cant have a definite answer.
A midfield of Robson and Keane with Scholes a little forward would simply rape other rival teams of today though!

I don't really want to get into a who is better debate as I can see both sides of the argument. I've never brought the Robbo was clearly better than Keane viewpoint, although he is my preference. Robbo was clearly more of a goalscorer than Keane though and had almost double the goals in his United career and was also often paired with a more attacking player in Whiteside, so it's not as if he had more freedom.

For the goals, Robbo's record in big games was ridiciliously good. For example,

(1) He scored in every FA cup semi final appearance he ever made bar the replay against Oldham. That's 5 goals in 6 games including replays and our semis under Big Ron and then Fergie were always crackers and difficult matches.
(2). He scored in two FA cup finals including a double against Brighton. Should have been three in 94.
(3). I can recall 7 goals against the dippers including two doubles and there would probably be more. That would be 2 in 83 Charity shield, two in the Anfield 3-3, one in both FA cup semi games 85 and the first goal at Anfield when Albiston got the winner. There would probably have been more.

His goal record for England as well is very good. 26 in 90 caps again normaly as the more defensive player of the two in midfield.

Not forgetting the two against Barcelona in the CWC. For a central midfielder who played in a 4-4-2 often as the more conservative player than really is very good.

Only other thing I want a mention is the thing with injuries. If we look over Keane's and Robson's appearances there is very little difference. The truth is Robbo is not as injury prone as alot say in retrospect and Keane picked up more injuries than people tend to remember.

Keane played 480 games for United and scored 51 goals over 12 seasons.

Robson played 437 games for United and scored 99 goals over 13 seasons.

Bearing in mind Keane played in the Fergie era which means constant CL football and was always a first team regular, the difference is not to big. Robbo really was a bit part player in his last two years(abit of a token captain like Gary Nev) at the club when his injury problems were probably worse than ever as well and was below McClair and Keane with Ince the main man.

 

[United87]

I think it's intresting that the goal scoring comparison is made as it was Robson himself who encouraged Keane to be more defensive and take the ball off the back four. He was much more of a goal threat for Forest and United before this.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Bearing in mind Keane played in the Fergie era which means constant CL football and was always a first team regular, the difference is not to big. Robbo really was a bit part player in his last two years(abit of a token captain like Gary Nev) at the club when his injury problems were probably worse than ever as well and was below McClair and Keane with Ince the main man.

I was agreeing with what you said until this bit, surely this would work in Keano's favour as he was playing against a higher class of opposition.

Roy Keane versus Juve is probably my favourite individual performance of all time taking the circumstances into account, unlike Gazza he took the suspension like a man and fought tooth and nail to win the game for his side. In fact I've changed my mind now and consider Keane the better player compared to Robson, well more important at least in terms of our legacy.

No Keane=No Treble. It really is that simple, though he wasn't there Roy Keane made the happiest night of my short life so far possible and for that I am eternally grateful.

 

[Cling Bak]

Robson. He was immense. As a reference the 84 Barcelona game stands out. It epitomises everything about his game. Power, leadership,tackling, passing and goals. He had everything.

Changing your sentence around provides just as memorable performance though. For example:

'Keane. He was immense. As a reference the 99 Juventus game stands out. It epitomises everything about his game. Power, leadership,tackling, passing and goals. He had everything.'

Lets just say that United won the European cup without Keane playing in the final... there is no way the United team of Robson's era would have won such a match without Robson in the line-up, such was the influence Robbo had.

It was the biggest crime the Robson was ruled out of the 84 CWC semi vs Juventus through injury because he would have owed Platini and Co and would have cemented his place in the pantheon of great players by disposing of first Maradona, then Platini in the same competition. Alas it was not to be... but that was part of equation with Robson, he was almost a one man team, but the injuries prevented him from the glory his talents deserved.

But United's team in '99 was better, we all know that. Robbo's influence on an ordinary side doesn't automatically make him better. Keane had influence over a great side.

Is there a slight gloss with Robson because there are 'what he could've done moments'? i.e. your second point about him missing such a vital game.

Not to take anything away from either, just trying to balance the debate.

 

[Jopub]

Who am i to say but having watched both at the height of their games I cant see Robson is anywhere near Keane.

Its often thought that Cantona changed around things at Utd but Keane for me really made Utd a daunting prospect to face.

He made Utd a more 'professional' outfit especially on the training ground

No doubt Robson's more likeable but as players I cant see Robson getting near Keane.

In Robson's defence though I'd say Keane had more gifted players around him but then again it was Keane who gave them the balls to display it week in week out

 

[KM]

Fergie on Keane and Robson in his latest interview(the question wasn't specifically about the two)

Alex Thomas: In all your years at Manchester United, who would you regard as the best player you have managed?

Alex Ferguson: Bryan Robson was an incredible presence in the dressing room and was loved by the players – tactically he was very astute. Roy Keane was a driving force in the dressing room, but they weren’t the best footballers.

 

[ludvik]

Bryan Robson for sure. Roy Keane doesn't even breathe down his neck. Robbo is up there with the greatest; but not at the very top. The best ever? Sir Bobby Charlton, Duncan Edwards, George Best, Denis Law. Bryan Robson is in the group of great players just below these. Roy Keane is not in that group even, albeit he for sure was a great player too.

 

[TomClare]

Both great players of their time, and both massively influential in the dressing room and out on the park. You would have rather have had either one with you than against you.

Forced to make a choice I would have to go for Robson because on pure ability, he shaded it for me.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

I was agreeing with what you said until this bit, surely this would work in Keano's favour as he was playing against a higher class of opposition.

Roy Keane versus Juve is probably my favourite individual performance of all time taking the circumstances into account, unlike Gazza he took the suspension like a man and fought tooth and nail to win the game for his side. In fact I've changed my mind now and consider Keane the better player compared to Robson, well more important at least in terms of our legacy.

No Keane=No Treble. It really is that simple, though he wasn't there Roy Keane made the happiest night of my short life so far possible and for that I am eternally grateful.

You misunderstood my post.

You have quoted the part when I was discussing how 'injury prone' Robbo was compared to Keane when looking at their appearances. The CL football point is clearly there to show Keane would have been in a side who played more games per season. The l'ittle difference' is in the number of games they played comparatively.

I already said i think Robbo is a better player than Keane elswhere in this thread.