Jesus Christ standards are at an all-time low here. This is the Robin van Persie thread, yes? People cannot be content with the starting striker for Manchester United, who has 4 goals in 13 matches, to simply 'make alright runs' and do nothing else all game. Sure, there's an element of players not catching his movement and not getting the ball at the best of times, but the world class strikers get over that and do more. He simply isn't doing that - it's no case of people witch-hunting a player for being shit and past it, he just isn't delivering anywhere near enough. It would be like praising a CB solely for his headed clearances.
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True, but even world class strikers need to be given the ball, and not just having to chase them out to the corner flag, which happened too often yesterday. Criticisms of him previously not looking interested could not apply for yesterday.
He's set such high standards that average performances look really bad. But that is the standard you have to be at a top club, maybe he does need to be dropped just to get some motivation back into him, it's clear to see this is not the same RVP of 2012 no matter how much we sugarcoat it with saying he made runs.
Not even. It'd be like praising a CB for doing a good job staying close to a striker, when the ball is at the other end of the pitch.
Aye, fair point about criticism at the weekend after his goal. After watching him last night though I'm feeling much more comfortable that he is moving in the right direction. Yeah, he didn't score, but for me looked better in his all-round play. I don't for one minute think the RvP of two seasons ago is lost and will never be seen again, I think it's just a matter of time before he's on fire again.
Would he though?
I'd be very interested to see his stats on his finishing when 1 on 1 with the keeper this season, because pretty much every time I've seen him get played clean through he's either shot straight at the keeper or been flagged offside.
Also, there are countless posts talking about how RvP's runs are being ignored, but the thing is you can apply this to any CF in the league - watch Aguero and count how many of his runs off the shoulder AREN'T picked out by teammates, you'll be surprised.
It gets talked about as if other teams pick out every single run that their striker makes.
Making runs is what CFs do, if you want to give our strikers minutes based on how many runs they attempt then bring Hernandez back and give him the number 9 shirt.
If people seriously think van Persie hasn't declined, they need to watch videos of him from 11/12 or 12/13. Not even half the player now. People are clutching at straws saying some of the things to try and hide the fact that his age and injuries have made him decline to where he is now, not simply bad form.
Yeah. I'm not sure if people forget that 'decline' doesn't mean 'completely drop to Championship standards one morning after waking up'.
He's still capable of those superb goals, because he has great technique (same goes for someone like Berbatov) but I don't see him ever getting back to that level of two/three years ago.
No doubt he'll have one or two games this season where he scores a couple of great goals, and some will be quick to say "I told you so" and "What decline?", but it's over 30 odd games where his value is up for question.
I think he's best off going to Italy or somewhere slower.
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Justifying Van Persie's current form more or less degrades the version of Van Persie that was, for a period, the best centre forward in Europe. As you say, the difference between now and a few seasons back is night and day.
I don't think anyone has mentioned Championship level but he is certainly looking like (non-Juve) Serie A level. Based on the last 18 months, he wouldn't be a starter for any club we would consider a peer.
Yeah, people automatically assume players turn to shit all of a sudden when people say decline. Its a slow and steady process, and you could say he's been on the decline since his 11/12 season. Was absolutely world class in 12/13 of course, but scored 7 goals less, and then of course last season and now this.
Agreed.
He’s frustrating at the moment but it’s not all down to him. Yesterday he made some wonderful runs in the second period but Herrera, Mata and Fellaini failed to find him and Wilson never gave him the ball.
I saw him hanging the poor Wilson for the lack of pressing (especially at the beginning of the second half) and the lack of ball, he asked Fellaini twice to cross the ball first touch. Every time he was in front of Shawcross and when the ball finally arrived, 2.3 touches after, he was marked and we lost the pace in our game.
Note also that the team is far slower that what we used to be 2 years ago, we have less cross and less balls in the box. I think we control more the game and we’re more looking for “lag” in the opponent’s defense than killing them with pace. At Arsenal, and in his first year, there was pace all around him, he was the main target.
I remember his best performance during his first year, Valencia, Rooney, Young and Giggs, worked for him as we were a counter attacking team. His goals at Chelsea for example, or his late against N’Castle. His game is about the right timing, adjusting the run to the pace of the counter attack.
Look at the Stoke game once again, and focus on him, he was terrific at keeping the ball up, but when he changed side there was no pace, the same for few counter we had. Herrera played safe balls, Mata and Fellaini missed their balls, and finally he wasn’t helped high by Wilson.
So I think that the problem is 50/50…. He has to adapt his game to our style now, and probably we have to play more with him
I saw him hanging the poor Wilson for the lack of pressing (especially at the beginning of the second half) and the lack of ball, he asked Fellaini twice to cross the ball first touch. Every time he was in front of Shawcross and when the ball finally arrived, 2.3 touches after, he was marked and we lost the pace in our game.
Note also that the team is far slower that what we used to be 2 years ago, we have less cross and less balls in the box. I think we control more the game and we’re more looking for “lag” in the opponent’s defense than killing them with pace. At Arsenal, and in his first year, there was pace all around him, he was the main target.
I remember his best performance during his first year, Valencia, Rooney, Young and Giggs, worked for him as we were a counter attacking team. His goals at Chelsea for example, or his late against N’Castle. His game is about the right timing, adjusting the run to the pace of the counter attack.
Look at the Stoke game once again, and focus on him, he was terrific at keeping the ball up, but when he changed side there was no pace, the same for few counter we had. Herrera played safe balls, Mata and Fellaini missed their balls, and finally he wasn’t helped high by Wilson.
So I think that the problem is 50/50…. He has to adapt his game to our style now, and probably we have to play more with him
I don't know why this is not being mentioned enough in this thread he looked as fit and as quick as i've ever seen him. I don't think i've ever seen him chase back and press as intensely as he had yesterday. There was a moment when he sprinted past our entire midfield and made an impressive amount of ground to win the ball back.
Really think this 'decline' is overstated. This bad-mediocre form would need to continue for at least the rest of the season for me to think he was finished with us.
Should he be dropped: absolutely. He should be starting on the bench.
Will he be dropped: nope. Along with Rooney, De Gea, Di Maria and Blind, his name is probably the first on the team-sheet. Guaranteed starter.
The real low point came against Arsenal, where he was a passenger - I think he broke some sort of negative record for not touching the ball in that game, not sure.
The next game, he started. And the next. And will continue doing so.
The shocking thing is that for all the glass players we have in our team, this guy never gets injured. He is bullet proof.
Even Rooney, who is normally made of rock, is now injured. Perhaps the reason why RvP isnt getting injured is because he hardly touches the ball...but who knows.
Will he be dropped: nope. Along with Rooney, De Gea, Di Maria and Blind, his name is probably the first on the team-sheet. Guaranteed starter.
The real low point came against Arsenal, where he was a passenger - I think he broke some sort of negative record for not touching the ball in that game, not sure.
The next game, he started. And the next. And will continue doing so.
The shocking thing is that for all the glass players we have in our team, this guy never gets injured. He is bullet proof.
Even Rooney, who is normally made of rock, is now injured. Perhaps the reason why RvP isnt getting injured is because he hardly touches the ball...but who knows.
You've made up your mind about him! it's frustrating to see how people forgot that RvP can do magic some other strikers cannot. It was very clear Wilson should have passed it to him. Even he couldn't score, it doesn't mean he shouldn't be given the ball in the first place because you just don't know!!!
He did fine against Stoke City. He looked sharper, quicker, and was better on the ball than against Hull (in the first half). However, Stoke's game plan made it difficult to play as he normally does this season, and I was very surprised that he didn't adjust his game to overcome Stoke's defensive game plan, especially with Wilson around, who's skill set is currently more specific than van Persie's.
In this match, with Stoke sitting so deep and our midfielders dragging theirs away to create spaces in the middle, van Persie should have popped into those spaces and drag the Stoke defenders away, creating running avenues for Wilson, Mata/Herrera, etc. However, he didn't do this, and Wilson and van Persie were essentially playing the same exact role for much of the match, which resulted in our attacks being slower, and our play being less incisive, particularly in the first half when Stoke kept it tight in the middle and defence.
In the second half, we only got better once Stoke started pushing and creating gaps for Mata and Herrera to exploit. Otherwise, only Wilson changed his game slightly to drag the defenders away so he could beat them with this runs. van Persie was, as usual, playing more like how I expected Wilson to play in this match.
Something happened under Moyes. van Persie completely changed his style of play under him, and other than the World Cup campaign, he hasn't really looked like what he was before Moyes came here. Nowadays, he's pretty much playing like a traditional striker with others having to either change their game for him (Falcao, Wilson) or Rooney having to help make our attacks more incisive. With Falcao and Wilson, van Persie needs to control his selfishness and work more for the team with drawing defenders away from the back line. This way, his partner will do more of the same, and we can have a stronger attacking setup. However, van Persie's played more strictly than I would expect him to with Falcao, Wilson, and Rooney having to do what van Persie should also do every time. This makes it easier for the opposition to close van Persie down unless his partner does the job of dragging defenders away.
Personally, I feel like van Persie is becoming obsessed with scoring goals, which is why his movement, positioning, and overall game is set up as it currently is and not what it naturally should be. In this case, we must play Rooney alongside him in order to break down defences like Stoke's in the first half. With two strikers just staying up front and trying to get into the box, we will have a tough time breaking down teams parking the bus unless one of the strikers drops a little bit back into the hole and drag the defenders away, which Rooney and Falcao do at the moment.
In this match, with Stoke sitting so deep and our midfielders dragging theirs away to create spaces in the middle, van Persie should have popped into those spaces and drag the Stoke defenders away, creating running avenues for Wilson, Mata/Herrera, etc. However, he didn't do this, and Wilson and van Persie were essentially playing the same exact role for much of the match, which resulted in our attacks being slower, and our play being less incisive, particularly in the first half when Stoke kept it tight in the middle and defence.
In the second half, we only got better once Stoke started pushing and creating gaps for Mata and Herrera to exploit. Otherwise, only Wilson changed his game slightly to drag the defenders away so he could beat them with this runs. van Persie was, as usual, playing more like how I expected Wilson to play in this match.
Something happened under Moyes. van Persie completely changed his style of play under him, and other than the World Cup campaign, he hasn't really looked like what he was before Moyes came here. Nowadays, he's pretty much playing like a traditional striker with others having to either change their game for him (Falcao, Wilson) or Rooney having to help make our attacks more incisive. With Falcao and Wilson, van Persie needs to control his selfishness and work more for the team with drawing defenders away from the back line. This way, his partner will do more of the same, and we can have a stronger attacking setup. However, van Persie's played more strictly than I would expect him to with Falcao, Wilson, and Rooney having to do what van Persie should also do every time. This makes it easier for the opposition to close van Persie down unless his partner does the job of dragging defenders away.
Personally, I feel like van Persie is becoming obsessed with scoring goals, which is why his movement, positioning, and overall game is set up as it currently is and not what it naturally should be. In this case, we must play Rooney alongside him in order to break down defences like Stoke's in the first half. With two strikers just staying up front and trying to get into the box, we will have a tough time breaking down teams parking the bus unless one of the strikers drops a little bit back into the hole and drag the defenders away, which Rooney and Falcao do at the moment.
This clip is a month old now but I don't think much has changed since. I stumbled upon it today and found it interesting. Sorry if it has been discussed already.
Do you agree with Gary? Has RvP really regressed as much as most say or is he simply a victim of our changed style and way of playing?. Does he need to be at the center of it all, without others getting in his way or could he adapt and find a role in our current setup?
Do you agree with Gary? Has RvP really regressed as much as most say or is he simply a victim of our changed style and way of playing?. Does he need to be at the center of it all, without others getting in his way or could he adapt and find a role in our current setup?
There’s a few things at play, especially the injuries to the side and change of style. RVP’s not as good as he was 2 years ago but I think the overall team improvement we’ve seen in the last month is going to work to his benefit very soon.
Early on, with so many changes and injuries, we were still relying on individual brilliance and set pieces as our primary threats. We saw glimpses of the good interplay but there was still a lot of hoofing in long balls from deep and bypassing the midfield from the defenders and Rooney+di Maria. Still very Moyesian. That’s changing now, with Carrick+Herrera back and Fellaini in form. They, with Mata and Rooney, are carrying the ball forward, drawing defenders and creating space. Then, they've been picking out the attacking runs or laying it off to other CMs. This wasn't happening nearly as much early on, we really only looked dangerous when di Maria would run up from CM and create havoc.
The quality of the chances we’re creating is going up and as we create more opportunities, better opportunities, the finishing will also improve. It hasn't all clicked yet, but I think it’s a matter of fine tuning now. We've added variety back to the style – counter attack against Arsenal, attack through the middle against Hull or spread it wide and come back in like against Stoke. The strikers are all guilty of forcing it a bit right now, but if we can maintain health for a bit (especially in midfield) I think RVP, Falcao, and Wilson are going to start banging in the goals.
Early on, with so many changes and injuries, we were still relying on individual brilliance and set pieces as our primary threats. We saw glimpses of the good interplay but there was still a lot of hoofing in long balls from deep and bypassing the midfield from the defenders and Rooney+di Maria. Still very Moyesian. That’s changing now, with Carrick+Herrera back and Fellaini in form. They, with Mata and Rooney, are carrying the ball forward, drawing defenders and creating space. Then, they've been picking out the attacking runs or laying it off to other CMs. This wasn't happening nearly as much early on, we really only looked dangerous when di Maria would run up from CM and create havoc.
The quality of the chances we’re creating is going up and as we create more opportunities, better opportunities, the finishing will also improve. It hasn't all clicked yet, but I think it’s a matter of fine tuning now. We've added variety back to the style – counter attack against Arsenal, attack through the middle against Hull or spread it wide and come back in like against Stoke. The strikers are all guilty of forcing it a bit right now, but if we can maintain health for a bit (especially in midfield) I think RVP, Falcao, and Wilson are going to start banging in the goals.
I like Van Persie a lot as a player, but I think it needs to be acknowledged that he's been in incredibly poor form for over a year!
He was so poor during last season and at the World Cup that many on here were convinced that he was needing an operation of some sort and were shocked when it turned out he didn't!
It's important not to ignore the length of time that this poor form has gone on for. Because in all honesty, right now, he's getting game time on reputation alone.
Well, reputation is critical. Opposition know who can be dangerous and it scares them.
And Giggsy is a good example when he's suffering from his hamstring, he's not in perfect form but the manager knew he's still useful and looked how he from time to time bailed us out after all. And he's getting stronger and stronger, still playing when he's 40
Van Persie had an amazing WC, although might be dipping nearer closure. I don't for one minute believe LvG played him at United for reasons other than footballing!!!
Seriously... What made his World Cup amazing? I'm convinced I watched a different World Cup.
His flying header stood out, one which is easily the best goal in the tournament. That alone is amazing. The image if such a Flying Dutchman was immortalised as an art piece in Rio and so much talked about. Have you missed it? I felt for you if you have
And that made his whole World Cup showing amazing for you? Fair enough.
Winning the World Cup is amazing no doubt but as a small country, helping his team to play third beating the host country is definitely an amazing experience and achievement.
Good clip, especially since it shows both sides of the coin. Yes, the service into him hasn't been the same as in his first season. I think, partly, us playing less direct football means fewer of the passes in behind that Gary is talking about here. But, as Gary starts to go into (but one could show dozens of clips of it this season), his buildup play has been pretty awful this season.
I think you're confused. Robben was amazing, RvP'd had 2 excellent games and was invisible for the rest of the tournament.
Many people claimed that taking off RvP (twice actually) was LvG' s stroke of genius but as a matter of fact, Robin was just pure shit.
You sound like a terrible fan! No one is arguing Robben had a great performance without whom The Netherlands might not have gone that far. But this thread is not about Robben so it's you who's being confused. Bye!
Are you saying we should play RvP because his reputation scares opposition...?
Really?
Um... Giggs has retired - you know that though, right?
No he didn't. Wonder header aside, he was actually fairly poor given his previous ability.
Why not? I don't understand all the haters. He's having a dip in form yet he would be scoring some crucial goal despite it. His ability to score amazing goals should not have been disputed. Can't believe all those historical revisionists on here.
And your point? When I quoted Giggsy as an example, it shows how you can't write off important player too soon too readily. All you haters seem to want to hang RvP or lock him away. He's starting because his manager saw what he can do in training and still has faith in him and be one of 11 players who can contribute to win. But you lot think he's getting favour from the manager because he's Dutch. I disagree totally.
People should be patient with him before there's a clear cut replacement the manager can deploy. Falcao is just coming back and LvG is correct not to start him too soon
Apparently RvP has made more runs than a guy with a belly full of dodgy curries, and it's everyone elses fault for not finding him, well that's that solved then.
Where were you when he scored? Fans like you should be ashamed of yourself for being so disrespectful. I am not here to defend the striker but post like this is so unnecessary. Can imagine how hurtful it is when your own fans turned their back against you with thess ruthless remarks.
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Has it got to the point where we arent allowed to criticise our players on a messageboard for fear of hurting their feelings?
You're allowed to say anything but being sarcastic and disrespectful and yet not constructive go to show your characters
I think RVP is going to turn the corner soon. I think he'll have a few games now where he scores a few goals in a row, confidence comes back, and he'll start to look the part again. I don't necessarily think he'll ever get back to the level of his first season, but that's more or less to be expected at his age. Do I think he should be dropped? No, personally I don't.
What I also think will happen, when he turns the corner, it'll be like the Rooney thread. A few weeks ago, all that was going on in there was people wanting him dropped, people happy he was sent off, people complaining about his "get the ball, kick it to right winger" tendencies. Now, it's like he's Messi. People lamenting that he's out etc.
The fickle nature of this forum astounds me at times.
RVP is a class act. He's not done.
What I also think will happen, when he turns the corner, it'll be like the Rooney thread. A few weeks ago, all that was going on in there was people wanting him dropped, people happy he was sent off, people complaining about his "get the ball, kick it to right winger" tendencies. Now, it's like he's Messi. People lamenting that he's out etc.
The fickle nature of this forum astounds me at times.
RVP is a class act. He's not done.
You are just joking right? Otherwise lets head to the sentimentality thread as this is ridiculous, he's been woeful this season, he's a grown man and a very well paid one, I am sure he doesn't care what anyone here posts whether it's positive or negative, and my post was clearly just in fun at the rabid defense some are making for a striker clearly way off the required level we need.
And you were serious about "....RvP has making more runs than a guy with a belly full of dodgy curries..." Talking about double standard. My point was, in all seriousness, if RvP scored a few crucial goals (which I still believe he's capable of) in the next few games, will you eat your humble pies and your leather shoes?!!
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