Road Ahead - Is Complete Rebuild Possible?

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I don't think the women's team needs a complete rebuild, as we have the basis for a very good squad, we need a lot of luck with injuries, and to bring in players who can score more often than we currently are.

I love what Jackie and Risa bring to the table in terms of work rate, and creativity, but especially Jackie, she has yet to score for us.

Compare our goal scoring from midfield with those of the "big 3", and that is where we are very much lacking, we have Russo and Ella to score most of our goals, and then not a lot else from elsewhere, that needs improving in the summer.
Galton chips in from wide areas, but not really enough for her talent level, we need to see much more end product from her.

So I would say that a complete re-build isn't fully required, maybe just two or three players to really push us onto really competing with the "big 3".

What the hell is this post? About 5 people know or care who plays for the Women's team.

 

[MUW4Eva]

What the hell is this post? About 5 people know or care who plays for the Women's team.

Well there were a lot more than 5 people at the game that was staged recently at Old Trafford, so why shouldn't talking about them be acceptable, what have you got against one of our two first teams??

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Well there were a lot more than 5 people at the game that was staged recently at Old Trafford, so why shouldn't talking about them be acceptable, what have you got against one of our two first teams??

Because no one even referenced the women's team. I have nothing against them, but 95% of people don't care, so talking about that team out of the blue was just bizarre.

 

[MUW4Eva]

Because no one even referenced the women's team. I have nothing against them, but 95% of people don't care, so talking about that team out of the blue was just bizarre.

Where is this 95% figure coming from?
Have you personally carried out a huge survey, and that is the figure that you got back, if so, can I see this survey and the figures for myself please??

Why put down others that enjoy it just as much, if not more then the men's side of things??

This thread was talking about if the team needed a rebuild or not, and I was merely answering it, in referencing it with regards to the women's team, there is nothing wrong with that, as far as I can see.

 

[TheReligion]

Everyone that was laughing at Arsenal and Arteta need to admit they know sweet feck all about this game.

They but the bullet and refreshed everything over the last 2 or 3 years, brought through loads of youngsters and are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Basically, we need to do what Arsenal have done and what Fergie did many years ago.

Remind me what Arsenal are building again?

 

[pocco]

What’s the point? I don’t think you have one

The point is that they have had a real cultural reset and have stabilized their squad and are probably well ahead of plan on their goals in the short to medium term. They have done what I think we are reluctant to do due to being to afraid of not getting top 4 or whatever, and that is really clearing out overpaid stars that can't perform and only keeping hungry players around, even if that is youth players. In my opinion arsenal have given themselves a young and talented perform to build off. We have an ageing squad being propped up by players that are on there way out.

Remind me what Arsenal are building again?

I trust your opinion even less if you think one result of performance proves anything. The points swing they've achieved this year is testament to the work they've done.

Hell, take the pressure table out of it and even just the football they play and the mood around the place seems much improved. I'll stand by this even if they capitulate and we finish after of them. I think if they can add a few really good players then they're right back in the mix and I didn't think I'd say that anytime soon.

 

[blythy]

It should be done over the next 2 years.

The plan should be 6 new players in summer 2022.
Then 6 new players in summer 2023.
Then 6 new players in summer 2024.

Thats 18 players. The current squad and youth players can fight it out for the last 4 places.

Just like that

 

[blythy]

A complete rebuild is not possible with the financial restraints we have. Most of our poor players will leave for nothing or next to nothing. At best I reckon we may have 150 million to spend on 3/4 players this summer. That's no different from any other year. We need a replacement for Matic, Pogba, Dalot and Greenwood. That will be it despite 7 or so leaving.

Most sensible thing I've read in this thread,

 

[Infra-red]

A complete rebuild is not possible with the financial restraints we have. Most of our poor players will leave for nothing or next to nothing. At best I reckon we may have 150 million to spend on 3/4 players this summer. That's no different from any other year. We need a replacement for Matic, Pogba, Dalot and Greenwood. That will be it despite 7 or so leaving.

The rebuild isn't going to happen over the space of a single summer. I think we're looking at three or four transfer windows to retool.

The team won't be competitive next season - it's important that everyone is patient and adjusts their expectations accordingly, while this process takes place.

 

[Loon]

Other managers have come in and refreshed worse teams in less time. The hope is that the new manager can keep the team ticking along while he makes those changes thus buying himself time.

 

[Loon]

I actually hope ten Hag can assemble a side at a budget, which is what he has done at Ajax. It will be an elevated budget for him, but it needn’t be the crazy spends since Moyes was fired.

 

[blythy]

it's important that everyone is patient and adjusts their expectations accordingly, while this process takes place.

Realistically, that's simply not gonna happen. Patience is long gone in football and United still generate enough media attention for a media frenzy if there are no improvements in weeks, let alone years.

 

[Infra-red]

Realistically, that's simply not gonna happen. Patience is long gone in football and United still generate enough media attention for a media frenzy if there are no improvements in weeks, let alone years.

That has historically been the case, but this is the weakest of all the sides the club have assembled post-SAF and, relative to it's rivals, the club is worse-off financially than at any point in the last decade. This will therefore be a more substantial rebuild than any we have recently attempted, in more challenging financial circumstances than any we've recently encountered.

Fans and the club's hierarchy should prepare themselves for 18 months or so of iffy results while the new team is built. We have to see this process through.

 

[Infra-red]

I actually hope ten Hag can assemble a side at a budget, which is what he has done at Ajax. It will be an elevated budget for him, but it needn’t be the crazy spends since Moyes was fired.

He didn't assemble any of the Ajax sides. He coaches the team. It will be up to our new football structure to assemble the players he needs, if he is appointed.

 

[blythy]

That has historically been the case, but this is the weakest of all the sides the club have assembled post-SAF and, relative to it's rivals, the club is worse-off financially than at any point in the last decade. This will therefore be a more substantial rebuild than any we have recently attempted, in more challenging financial circumstances than any we've recently encountered.

Fans and the club's hierarchy should prepare themselves for 18 months or so of iffy results while the new team is built. We have to see this process through.

The sensible (minority?) among us know that. However for me Perez was probably onto something with his 'short attention span modern fan' theory. If we're not winning consistently by September, there will be large sections of our fanbase (almost entirely online) calling for knee-jerk changes regardless of the (valid) circumstances you've highlighted.

 

[Loon]

He didn't assemble any of the Ajax sides. He coaches the team. It will be up to our new football structure to assemble the players he needs, if he is appointed.

But surely consulted about the players required for his set up and will hopefully continue to do so at United? Indeed if he is appointed (I’m definitely getting swept up in all this Twitter stuff!)

 

[lex talionis]

How does a club which refuses to let Mata and Lingard go "rebuild"? I love Juan Mata the man and in his day he was outrageous on the pitch, but that day was literally almost a decade ago. Lingard never had a day, as he's always been a mediocre footballer, and he wanted to leave yet we forced him to stay so that he could walk out on a free rather than at least collect 5-10m from the transfer.

There is no basis to trust this club management team to rebuild the squad into a proper PL contender.

But hey, great news out today from United that you can now stay the night at OT and watch an empty pitch.

 

[croadyman]

Depends on those yankee clowns doesn't it

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Fanbase isn’t ready for a complete rebuild. To do so you’d have to admit we’ve been wrong on too many fan favourites & that isn’t happening. I doubt the people in charge are capable but whilst posters still think we’re ‘a few players away from. . .’ we’ll get the customary marquee signing to appease the vocals & no proper change.

 

[TheReligion]

The point is that they have had a real cultural reset and have stabilized their squad and are probably well ahead of plan on their goals in the short to medium term. They have done what I think we are reluctant to do due to being to afraid of not getting top 4 or whatever, and that is really clearing out overpaid stars that can't perform and only keeping hungry players around, even if that is youth players. In my opinion arsenal have given themselves a young and talented perform to build off. We have an ageing squad being propped up by players that are on there way out.



I trust your opinion even less if you think one result of performance proves anything. The points swing they've achieved this year is testament to the work they've done.

Hell, take the pressure table out of it and even just the football they play and the mood around the place seems much improved. I'll stand by this even if they capitulate and we finish after of them. I think if they can add a few really good players then they're right back in the mix and I didn't think I'd say that anytime soon.

Nope. You’re vastly over egging their progress. It’s that simple.

 

[pocco]

Nope. You’re vastly over egging their progress. It’s that simple.

It's not that simple at all. You just can't see the wood for the trees. I couldn't care less if you agree or if you can recognise it, to be perfectly honest. I thought this Arsenal team would finish around 8th this season because they've took a root and branch approach and hit the reset button. I'll repeat, from 8th place and 13 points behind to 4th place and potentially 6 ahead coming into the last few games. They have had a miles better season than us, absolutely nobody predicted it. How you can't recognise thier progress is your own shortcoming.

 

[TheReligion]

It's not that simple at all. You just can't see the wood for the trees. I couldn't care less if you agree or if you can recognise it, to be perfectly honest. I thought this Arsenal team would finish around 8th this season because they've took a root and branch approach and hit the reset button. I'll repeat, from 8th place and 13 points behind to 4th place and potentially 6 ahead coming into the last few games. They have had a miles better season than us, absolutely nobody predicted it. How you can't recognise thier progress is your own shortcoming.

Pure fantasy

 

[TheReligion]

For the record Arteta is doing okay but could still go either way for them long term. To suggest anything more is silly and naive.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Think it will be getting the right players for the main positions we need. Then there should be an improvement. They have to be bought to fit the style the manager wants to play going forward, not just signing someone because he is available. Then next summer do the same for less desperate positions. Planning. Something we have not had for a long, long time.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Think it will be getting the right players for the main positions we need. Then there should be an improvement. They have to be bought to fit the style the manager wants to play going forward, not just signing someone because he is available. Then next summer do the same for less desperate positions. Planning. Something we have not had for a long, long time.

Think it will be getting the right players for the main positions we need. Then there should be an improvement. They have to be bought to fit the style the manager wants to play going forward, not just signing someone because he is available. Then next summer do the same for less desperate positions. Planning. Something we have not had for a long, long time.

How much would you be prepared to make losses on players to achieve that? Just thinking that, for example if you get ETH and he wants to play a high press, this involves playing a high line (exposing Maguire’s lack of pace), usually is aided by a sweeper-keeper (which De Gea isn’t), needs hard running strikers (so no Ronaldo), a technically strong midfield (no McTom), and full backs who can get up and down (sorry AWB). Just an example, and the specific players I’ve mentioned are not the only ones of course, but it would involve the club taking huge balance sheet losses and/or paying huge wages to players who aren’t playing and will be difficult to sell. Like Kepa at Chelsea. I suspect most fans would understand the need to grasp the nettle, even if it means a season or two with a bloated squad, but I don’t know what the owners/ DoF would think.

 

[croadyman]

Think it will be getting the right players for the main positions we need. Then there should be an improvement. They have to be bought to fit the style the manager wants to play going forward, not just signing someone because he is available. Then next summer do the same for less desperate positions. Planning. Something we have not had for a long, long time.

Yeah that's exactly the strategy which should be implemented but will it happen

 

[DomesticTadpole]

How much would you be prepared to make losses on players to achieve that? Just thinking that, for example if you get ETH and he wants to play a high press, this involves playing a high line (exposing Maguire’s lack of pace), usually is aided by a sweeper-keeper (which De Gea isn’t), needs hard running strikers (so no Ronaldo), a technically strong midfield (no McTom), and full backs who can get up and down (sorry AWB). Just an example, and the specific players I’ve mentioned are not the only ones of course, but it would involve the club taking huge balance sheet losses and/or paying huge wages to players who aren’t playing and will be difficult to sell. Like Kepa at Chelsea. I suspect most fans would understand the need to grasp the nettle, even if it means a season or two with a bloated squad, but I don’t know what the owners/ DoF would think.

We are bound to make losses on some players as we were stupid enough to pay too much for them in the first place. Like I have said before we have to be canny with our signings for a change. Other clubs seems to be able to do it, why do we need the mega signings all the time. We have stopped trying to develop players, get a manager who can develop talent. We are losing quite a few players off the wage bill which will free up money and squad place. Look to see if any of the youngster are ready to step up, then use the scouting network for a change, not just agents on the make. We need energy in this team, the right attitude.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah that's exactly the strategy which should be implemented but will it happen

I have just said in another post, use your scouts, use Ralf's knowledge, use people who actually watch games, not just the PL. Not use agents who just want a massive payday for their usually overrated, on their last legs players.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

How much would you be prepared to make losses on players to achieve that? Just thinking that, for example if you get ETH and he wants to play a high press, this involves playing a high line (exposing Maguire’s lack of pace), usually is aided by a sweeper-keeper (which De Gea isn’t), needs hard running strikers (so no Ronaldo), a technically strong midfield (no McTom), and full backs who can get up and down (sorry AWB). Just an example, and the specific players I’ve mentioned are not the only ones of course, but it would involve the club taking huge balance sheet losses and/or paying huge wages to players who aren’t playing and will be difficult to sell. Like Kepa at Chelsea. I suspect most fans would understand the need to grasp the nettle, even if it means a season or two with a bloated squad, but I don’t know what the owners/ DoF would think.

This is the issue we’ll continue to face whilst the people in charge of correcting bad decisions were somewhat involved in the decisions being made in the first place. It’s a big climb down for the ego to admit how wrong they were spending £80mil on a mediocre CB & £50mil on a useless RB, amongst others. People on this forum still defend our players so imagine how hard it will be for people who’ve genuinely invested their reputations on these players to admit they were wrong.

 

[NicolaSacco]

This is the issue we’ll continue to face whilst the people in charge of correcting bad decisions were somewhat involved in the decisions being made in the first place. It’s a big climb down for the ego to admit how wrong they were spending £80mil on a mediocre CB & £50mil on a useless RB, amongst others. People on this forum still defend our players so imagine how hard it will be for people who’ve genuinely invested their reputations on these players to admit they were wrong.

This is very true, thinking about it. It’s an admission of at best an unlucky mistake, at worst incompetence and unsuitability for the role. Humans in general, let alone those who consider themselves experts or business leaders, are famously awful at admitting those kinds of errors.

 

[croadyman]

Fanbase isn’t ready for a complete rebuild. To do so you’d have to admit we’ve been wrong on too many fan favourites & that isn’t happening. I doubt the people in charge are capable but whilst posters still think we’re ‘a few players away from. . .’ we’ll get the customary marquee signing to appease the vocals & no proper change.

The club need to stop trying to fob us off with marquee signings and actually sign players who fit the new managers system

 

[Footyislife]

I honestly recommend following the Footy Manager tutorial:

Phase 1 - Hire and empower a proven DOF
Phase 2 - Tell DOF what type of manager you want (attacking football, develops youth, etc)
Phase 3 - Hire best manager and work on a 3 yr plan
Phase 4 - Set transfer budget & salary cap slider
Phase 5 - Sell players or restructure contracts for overvalued players (Mata, Jones, Matic, Rashford, Hendo, Maguire, Martial, Pereira)
Phase 6 - Fill gaps by buying players that suit the managers first team plan or promote youth
Phase 7 - Set pre-season training slider to high & schedule as many preseason matches every 3 days.
Phase 8 - Focus on developing consistent style of play
Phase 9 - Identify players to sell/buy to create depth and consistency
Phase 10 - Do that for 2 transfer windows
Phase 11 - Retire after winning 25 trophies

 

[Olecurls99]

I heartily agree with this.

I grew up in Montreal, Canada. Between 1956 and 1979 the Montreal Canadiens won the Stanley cup 15 times. So, 15 out of 25 years which is pretty similar to what United did in the premier league between 1994 and 2013. I grew up in the 1970s and as a kid I just assumed my hockey team would win it all every other year. Then in a short period of years Sam Pollack, the general manager left, Scotty Bowman the coach left to win elsewhere and the owners sold the team. The quality of management rapidly declined and then to mollify the fans they began bringing in former players from the glory years as coaches and managers. They were terrible at their jobs. The team have now gone 29 years without winning a Stanley Cup and I find it so painful to cheer for them that I rarely even watch them play.

By contrast, I now live in Toronto and began cheering for their basketball franchise in the NBA a few years ago. While a pretty big city, by NBA standards Toronto is not considered a major market team. They are not able to sign major free agents who invariably prefer to go to big American television markets like New York, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, Boston or Dallas where they will get more exposure. For the longest time, when they did manage to draft a star player they would invariably leave as free agents or force a trade leaving the fans with feeling bitter.

Then about 10 years ago the Raptors brought in a new senior management team who have since completely turned the franchise around. They still have the same marketplace disadvantages, but the new group make consistently good decisions within that context. They managed to win a title back in 2019 and within one season of the title 4 of their 8 main players left through free agency. But, they have hung on to a core of 3 up and coming players from that team, added several new young pieces through the draft and through trades. They have a coaching team that consistently improves players individually and wins more as a collective than they should looking at them on paper. As a result, even when not winning they are fun to cheer for because as a fan you believe that they are building something that will look better tomorrow than it does today.

Unfortunately, Manchester United are currently much closer to the Canadiens than the Raptors. They have huge inherent advantages over most of their competitors. But, they squander it with a management team that cannot accurately evaluate their own players let alone properly scout opposing players. Nor, can they follow a consistent long term plan. The only time I've felt really optimistic about United since Alex Ferguson left was two years ago when we had Martial, Rashford and Greenwood up front and Bruno in behind them. It just felt like we were building a youthful group who could grow and improve together and with a few additions in midfield might develop into an all conquering side in a few years. But, instead of improving the midfield and allowing our youthful front line to grow, we brought in Cavani and then Ronaldo to compete with the young forwards. None of the young players improved under United's coaches (former players from the glory years). In fact, the performances of both Rashford and Martial went from promising to disastrous. It's hard to blame management for Greenwood's issues, but one wonders if a more cohesively run club might have protected him from his own demons.

Why did we sacrifice our hope of developing a youthful side to provide Ronaldo with an out to his problematic situation in Italy? Yes, he was a fantastic player for us in the oughts. But, he chose to take his talents to Madrid for his prime years. Why is he then entitled to come back here for his declining years?

Did no one in management stop to think before we gave Sanchez that ridiculous contract that it would destroy our team's wage structure? Year's later we still can't move poor performers on for a fee because they are all massively overpaid.

It's gotten so painful to watch our games that I have to force myself to do it. Like taking bad tasting medicine. The games invariably put me in a bad mood. And I have no real hope that it will improve. Despite United's enduring advantages, you just know the clowns at the top will keep making poor decisions while the leaders at our rivals will make good decisions. Until we get a proper leader at the top of the pyramid who understands Football and management and how to build a quality management and playing team from the top down nothing is going to change. I have sympathy for Jadon Sancho who came to United to join that youthful group of forwards but finds himself surrounded by something else. I would like to hope that we can build around his obvious talents. But, I don't have any confidence that we will.

Great Post

 

[Judge Red]

Fixing this club is like trying to eradicate Covid. The virus is still there and anyone who comes into the dressing room in the summer will get infected.

All we can do is live with being shit because the Glazers are still making a fortune from it.

 

[RedCoffee]

Looking into the detail I think we can balance the books, condense the squad, give Ten Hag a decent summer budget and rid the squad of dross and fringe players without a complete rebuild.

12 out and 4 in would do it for me.

MUFC FIRST TEAM 22-23

GK
De Gea
Henderson

CB
Varane
Maguire
Lindelof
New 60m - 200k pw

FB
Shaw
Telles
Wan Bissaka
New 50m - 200k pw

MF
McTominay
Fred
Fernandes
Van De Beek
Hannibal
New 60m - 300k pw

WING
Rashford
Elanga
Sancho
Diallo

FW
Ronaldo
New 80m - 300k pw

IN Total 250m fees - 1m wages

OUT Total 100m fees - 1.5m wages
Bailly 15m - 80k pw
Jones 5m - 75k pw
Dalot 25m - 45k pw
Pogba Nil - 290k pw
Matic Nil - 120k pw
Lingard Nil - 75k pw
Mata Nil - 160k pw
Greenwood Nil - 75k pw
Cavani Nil - 250k pw
Tuanzabe 15m - 50k pe
Martial 30m - 250k pw
Pereira 10m - 30k pw

 

[Red Dreams]

Henderson will be gone.
Dalot Out? No
Garner would certainly come in to midfield.
Pellistri will come back.
Rashford may also be gone.