A new manager can turn a poor looking side into a great one. It's happened plenty in the past.
Road Ahead - Is Complete Rebuild Possible?
- Thread starter NewGlory
- Start date
I agree, a new manager isn't going to make McTominay, Dalot, AWB, etc good enough though. And do not forget we lost Greenwood
It's not a total rebuild, new coaches with clear direction in how to play, and players to play in that way. There are some going any way so there is room for at least 4 new signings with quality. CM, CB, Striker at least one, and a RB I'd say as well. I'd like to see 2 new strikers. We've lost one of the best finishers at the club, and he may well never feature again.
Luck will play a part.
We needed a huge rebuild in the 2004 Era. This rebuild was kick started in a huge way with Rooney and Ronaldo. They were highly touted but but both had questions. They worked out incredibly.
Then smart buys like VDS, Evra, Vidic and Carrick put us over the top with Fergie and Carlos Queiroz.
These days I think there are less individual brilliant players and more system players. We really need Ten Hag to perform a miracle.
Are there any Rooney and Ronaldos out there?
We needed a huge rebuild in the 2004 Era. This rebuild was kick started in a huge way with Rooney and Ronaldo. They were highly touted but but both had questions. They worked out incredibly.
Then smart buys like VDS, Evra, Vidic and Carrick put us over the top with Fergie and Carlos Queiroz.
These days I think there are less individual brilliant players and more system players. We really need Ten Hag to perform a miracle.
Are there any Rooney and Ronaldos out there?
I genuinely believe we're in such desperate need of a cultural reset that we'd be better of leaving ourselves short, so long as those left have the right attitude.
Promote any youngsters in with a chance, buy in 5/6 young players with the right potential and mentality and strip the squad back to the bones.
The only established players I'd be against moving on would be:
DDG
Varane
Lindelof
Dalot
McTom (For now)
Telles
Fred
Sancho
Rashford
Promote (at least):
Garner
Mejbri
Laird
Mengi
Shoretire
Amad
Pellestri
A Goalkeeper (Transition out DDG)
See who sinks, who swims, and who needs more time, and build the next team with Character at the core of our recruitment.
Short term pain (lots of it, I imagine). Hopefully long term gain.
Promote any youngsters in with a chance, buy in 5/6 young players with the right potential and mentality and strip the squad back to the bones.
The only established players I'd be against moving on would be:
DDG
Varane
Lindelof
Dalot
McTom (For now)
Telles
Fred
Sancho
Rashford
Promote (at least):
Garner
Mejbri
Laird
Mengi
Shoretire
Amad
Pellestri
A Goalkeeper (Transition out DDG)
See who sinks, who swims, and who needs more time, and build the next team with Character at the core of our recruitment.
Short term pain (lots of it, I imagine). Hopefully long term gain.
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Exactly. We need at the very least this summer:
A full back
A midfielder
Wide attacker
Striker.
We need more than that obviously but that is the least we need. We should also look to get rid of about 10 players - Jones, Tuanzabe, Lingard, Pogba, Mata, Bailey, Cavani, AVB, Henderson, Martial and DVB. Nobody on that list has contributed jack shit to us this season, end of. You could add a few more but I guess we have to be realistic.
If the four signings we bring in are good and if the manager is the right one then we have a start. Hanibal, Laird, Garner, Mengi and Shoretire can be added to the squad to make up the numbers and find out how good they are.
Manager is everything in football. Liverpool won CL and played good football with Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner midfield. With Lovren in defence. On top of that players like Firmino or Robertson look much better in that system than they are.
Same goes with us. Lots of our players are much better than they are showing last few years.
Yes. Look at Klopps first Summer transfer window in 2016/17. All those limited looking players (and Mane), while we wasted £80+M on Pogba, yet they got top and 76 points. I can’t believe I am using the vermin as an example!
Get the right Manager and systems in place.
Then, system players, and young hungry players (who do what the Manager asks on the pitch) are the cheap part of the rebuild.
Get the right Manager and systems in place.
Then, system players, and young hungry players (who do what the Manager asks on the pitch) are the cheap part of the rebuild.
We'd be in the bottom half at best, or quite likely in Evertons position just now, with the poor guy who took over already sacked, and us convincing ourselves that the next guy will get us back to the top.
We need to be relalistic, and we already have enough players leaving that we can't control, without selling the likes of Maguire, Shaw, Elanaga, Matic, and Bruno (yes he isn't on your list), just yet.
The road back will be hard even with us getting a decent manager next, and for me we just need to be letting the likes of Lingard, Jones, Henderson, Cavani, Mata, go early on, I also wouldn't be against AWB, and Ronaldo going either, but would be ok with DVB, Pogba, and Bailly staying.
To have a massive turnover of players never works.
Pogba is out of contract, no way I would be giving him the sort of contract he wants, in fact we would be stark raving mad.
Haha ayye fair enough, you're probably right. I'm just at a loss with this bunch and feel the need for something drastic.
My apologies to Bruno and Elanga. They were casualties of a rushed post mid Sunday-dinner prep.
that’s not gonna happen 6 first players your looking at around 200 million a summer every year for the next 3 years. The club can’t afford that.
Yes but that takes time on the training ground, realistically there isn’t that time, the next two summers are very short because of the World Cup, games are going to be much more bunched togther.
A manger isn’t just going to walk through door and sort this mess out in the few months, Yes by all accounts Rangnicks training is quite furrow, but before the there talking 5 years since we last had a coach who was really diligent on the training ground.
add to that a decade and a 1.3 billion net spend ona scatter gun transfer policy.
This isn’t gonna be sorted out by just a new manager it’s gonna take a long long time.
All these prima donnas need to be sold. At least get players who are willing to listen to the manager and play the way he wants them to play. Pep got rid of Zlatan I feel not because he is a bad player but he was not playing the way Pep wants to play. It is a team game and once everyone plays as a team we will be better. This is such a mishmash of players.
Obviously if Pogba leaves in the summer, it will greatly reduce the wage bill freeing up more capital to dip into the market. I think there are still enough rough diamonds out there who are potentially young enough to adapt and fit into key rolls.
A half decent scout is capable of netting some great unknowns at a fraction of the cost of one established DCM. As we’ve already widely acknowledged, it’s vitally important that we buy more than one or two players, thanks to huge weaknesses throughout the starting lineup that need urgently addressing.
A half decent scout is capable of netting some great unknowns at a fraction of the cost of one established DCM. As we’ve already widely acknowledged, it’s vitally important that we buy more than one or two players, thanks to huge weaknesses throughout the starting lineup that need urgently addressing.
We need to upgrade on a lot of areas but the problem we’ve long had is our lack of intelligence in recruitment and identifying players as well as no system or style of play.
We need a modern right back and we could bring in Mazraoui (who is apparently good enough for Bayern and Barca to chase) on a free and bring back Laird yet no doubt we’ll give Dalot a new deal and persevere with AWB too.
We need a centre back who’s good on the ball and with his best years ahead yet allows us to play a high line so should be looking at Timber and Gvardiol who’ll both be available at decent fees and we’d recoup it by getting rid of Bailly, Tuanzebe and Jones.
We need a defensive midfielder and could bring in Kamara on a free and promote Garner yet we’ll waste all summer negotiating with West Ham for Rice even though West Ham are adamant he won’t go this summer.
Barca are apparently looking at Januzaj who’s rebuilt his career in Spain and available on a free as is Dembele at Barca and both better than what we have on the right in a bang out of form Rashford, an uninterested Lingard and a way past his best Mata.
There’s forwards like Nkunku, Isak, Nunez, Antony, De Ketelaere, Doku, Cherki and Adeyemi all likely to move this summer yet we’ll likely chase Kane all summer for an overly inflated fee that isn’t possible.
We have lots of talented players in the under 23’s and under 18’s who never get game time so don’t develop properly and instead of selling them we loan them out every year and let them leave on a free whilst City, Liverpool and Chelsea all get decent to great fees for their unwanted players.
It’s not as such a rebuild or reset we need and much more a restructuring in the people that make decisions. We need a manager to set out systems, we need coaches that coach these systems, we need scouts to identify players for these systems, we need sporting/football directors to recruit these players and we need a CEO who’ll allow time for these to all gradually come together without interference from non footballing people.
We need a modern right back and we could bring in Mazraoui (who is apparently good enough for Bayern and Barca to chase) on a free and bring back Laird yet no doubt we’ll give Dalot a new deal and persevere with AWB too.
We need a centre back who’s good on the ball and with his best years ahead yet allows us to play a high line so should be looking at Timber and Gvardiol who’ll both be available at decent fees and we’d recoup it by getting rid of Bailly, Tuanzebe and Jones.
We need a defensive midfielder and could bring in Kamara on a free and promote Garner yet we’ll waste all summer negotiating with West Ham for Rice even though West Ham are adamant he won’t go this summer.
Barca are apparently looking at Januzaj who’s rebuilt his career in Spain and available on a free as is Dembele at Barca and both better than what we have on the right in a bang out of form Rashford, an uninterested Lingard and a way past his best Mata.
There’s forwards like Nkunku, Isak, Nunez, Antony, De Ketelaere, Doku, Cherki and Adeyemi all likely to move this summer yet we’ll likely chase Kane all summer for an overly inflated fee that isn’t possible.
We have lots of talented players in the under 23’s and under 18’s who never get game time so don’t develop properly and instead of selling them we loan them out every year and let them leave on a free whilst City, Liverpool and Chelsea all get decent to great fees for their unwanted players.
It’s not as such a rebuild or reset we need and much more a restructuring in the people that make decisions. We need a manager to set out systems, we need coaches that coach these systems, we need scouts to identify players for these systems, we need sporting/football directors to recruit these players and we need a CEO who’ll allow time for these to all gradually come together without interference from non footballing people.
Yes some are better e.g Rashford, Fred, Pogba, Bruno, Sancho
Some are not good enough e.g AWB (in modern game), McTominay
And some are going to be gone e.g Cavani, Ronaldo, Greenwood, Matic, Martial, Pogba etc
We don't have any fullbacks who are good enough going forward that is just a fact, Shaw is probably the best of the bunch and he just about adequate for an attacking side.
The club needs to stop buying players all the time. Do what Barcelona and Arsenal are doing and put the trust in the young guys. The energy from young talent is irreplacable and more important then expensive transfers.
Of course, it's possible. It may take some time, but it's possible. Liverpool and Arsenal were in a similar funk, but have managed to turn it around (Arsenal only half-way, but certainly trending the right way).
We need the right manager, the right squad clear out, and a much better hit-rate on transfers. If we get that, we could be back to challenging for the title in 3 seasons, or so. Whether we will get all of that is an entirely different question - I am pretty skeptical.
We need the right manager, the right squad clear out, and a much better hit-rate on transfers. If we get that, we could be back to challenging for the title in 3 seasons, or so. Whether we will get all of that is an entirely different question - I am pretty skeptical.
This, but not exactly what he says. We need trust in quality young boys, not the usual trash young boys we keep around the team to stink up the place.
This club has a tradition of playing young kids just because it goes well with the fans. I like that, but we need the new manager to get the good young players in for their actual quality.
But you bring in 6 players, one of them likely to be a striker and those wage savings would be gone so isn't go to contribute to the transfer budget.
And most of the players leaving will be on free, or you won't get much money for because of their wages, if we get 30-40 million in outgoings it would be impressive.
Plus when you think about it 6 players for £200 million would be an average spend of £35 million per player, can United buy 6 first-team players for that, one of them being a striker, now i think about it 6 first-team players would be lucky to be under 250 million. Even if by some miracle that happened we certainly wouldn't do that the following year, or the year after that. Nor would I want us to because that kind of mental spending would end up bankrupting us.
What will happen in the summer is around 4 players will leave (5 at a push), and around 3 players will come in (4 at a push). we will have a net spend of probably around £100-120 milllion which is still really impressive and will probably one of the highest in the world again. Anyone expecting more than that just isn't being realistic.
We do need a rebuild, but if we are going to rebuild we need to actually think about recruitment and not just buy players or hire managers just for the sake of it. We talk about DNA and identity here at United, even though in the past 10 years we’ve had 4/5 different managers with completely different playing styles/management styles, and if we want to go down the route of having a recruitment team and a football director they need to be more smart about it.
Recruit managers with the same or similar playing styles and recruit players that actually suit the system. We’ve had crossing football with Moyes, possession football with LVG, counter attacking football with Jose, ‘Ole Ball’ and now pressing football with Ralf.. it couldn’t be more disorganised if they tried.
We need to have a vision of where we want to be and how we want to do it, otherwise it’ll be yet another disaster.
Recruit managers with the same or similar playing styles and recruit players that actually suit the system. We’ve had crossing football with Moyes, possession football with LVG, counter attacking football with Jose, ‘Ole Ball’ and now pressing football with Ralf.. it couldn’t be more disorganised if they tried.
We need to have a vision of where we want to be and how we want to do it, otherwise it’ll be yet another disaster.
Only with Glazers out, otherwise the future is surely outside top 6, for the next years
Just because they're academy player and young doesnt automatically made them a good player if you play them.
99% of academy player at top 4 fails to make it to the first team.
Even the likes of John Oshea doesnt come one every 10 years.
Sorry this is not FM. 5 or 6 academy players at this rate would get us relegated.
We've had mct the academy player as midfield and we havent recovered since
Rangnick won't be far out in saying that it will take 3 windows and 18 months to get where we want.
This is of course if we get the right manager, and he is backed in transfer market. We must also get rid of the deadwood and those who will not give 110% every game.
This is of course if we get the right manager, and he is backed in transfer market. We must also get rid of the deadwood and those who will not give 110% every game.
Of course a rebuild is possible, and I think many would be shocked on how quickly it can happen under the right manager. I think the first step though is to probably clear out some deadwood to refresh the dressing room while doing good business in the summer.
Yeah of course it is possible. The major problem is those that will oversee the rebuild, will they be the right people?
My fear is that the new CEO will be more of the same as Woody was, thinking he knows better and taking control of who we sign, not listening to experts.
My fear is that the new CEO will be more of the same as Woody was, thinking he knows better and taking control of who we sign, not listening to experts.
I don't think the women's team needs a complete rebuild, as we have the basis for a very good squad, we need a lot of luck with injuries, and to bring in players who can score more often than we currently are.
I love what Jackie and Risa bring to the table in terms of work rate, and creativity, but especially Jackie, she has yet to score for us.
Compare our goal scoring from midfield with those of the "big 3", and that is where we are very much lacking, we have Russo and Ella to score most of our goals, and then not a lot else from elsewhere, that needs improving in the summer.
Galton chips in from wide areas, but not really enough for her talent level, we need to see much more end product from her.
So I would say that a complete re-build isn't fully required, maybe just two or three players to really push us onto really competing with the "big 3".
I love what Jackie and Risa bring to the table in terms of work rate, and creativity, but especially Jackie, she has yet to score for us.
Compare our goal scoring from midfield with those of the "big 3", and that is where we are very much lacking, we have Russo and Ella to score most of our goals, and then not a lot else from elsewhere, that needs improving in the summer.
Galton chips in from wide areas, but not really enough for her talent level, we need to see much more end product from her.
So I would say that a complete re-build isn't fully required, maybe just two or three players to really push us onto really competing with the "big 3".
Of course it is but the new manager needs complete authority to do so, plus £100-£150m a year to do so. The dissenting views within the club need to stop, though, it's absolutely key that everyone is pulling in the same direction.
Yeah, he basically treated it like a real life football manager in which you delegate matches/training etc to your assistant manager.
Klopp did it on limited budget, by raising funds from selling dross from every age bracket and communicating with John Henry he'll need serious investement in players like Van Dijk & Alisson.
United with their global range and capability should be able to do that in accelerated rate. The problem is nobody in the club has cojones to execute the selling part which is absolute foundation on building something ambitious. Winter window is just one proof of many.
It's possible and should be happening since axing Jose. We'll need someone who for good of United's football side won't hesitate if circumstances force us to sell even the fan's favourites like De Gea or McTominay in order to progress much further. Unfortunately we're in the neverending part of accomodating chaps like Lingard & Mata for longer and nobody in the board has a clue it has stagnating effect.
We could really use some good leaders on top of hierarchy, it would help in tougher times to make right decisions with haste.
United with their global range and capability should be able to do that in accelerated rate. The problem is nobody in the club has cojones to execute the selling part which is absolute foundation on building something ambitious. Winter window is just one proof of many.
It's possible and should be happening since axing Jose. We'll need someone who for good of United's football side won't hesitate if circumstances force us to sell even the fan's favourites like De Gea or McTominay in order to progress much further. Unfortunately we're in the neverending part of accomodating chaps like Lingard & Mata for longer and nobody in the board has a clue it has stagnating effect.
We could really use some good leaders on top of hierarchy, it would help in tougher times to make right decisions with haste.
Klopp was given time, has a club with a good structure, was allowed to finish 8th.
do you think want manager here would have that level of support from the board or fan base?
Not entirely true.
They did get good fee/money back for Benteke, Sakko, Brewster, Ibe but ultimately Coutinho is catalyst for their funding of VVD, and some to spare toward Fabinho. Wjnaldum, Salah and Mane are within their budget affodability.
Only Allison is something they have to desperately paying upfront after Karius horror show in CL final.
Appointing Rangnick was a sign of bit different approach so yes, I do think it's a start of a different path... of course that is, if players won't sabotage things once again.
We already close to finishing low in the table and Rangnick will have his say next season, in at least few key things. We're already trusting him despite team is a walking anarchy and flooded with despicable attitudes. That's a start, but the real start is appointing the right man in the summer.
It's going to be a bumpy ride, but it's not impossible to finally end something bad and start something great. Four years for the solid manager and trusted staff of coaches could do a lot in club like United.
Of course there are Glazers, the board and relentless marketing side that could make it more complicated...
Of course it's possible. I mean obviously it's not 100% guaranteed but I'd be certain that if you watch Newcastle over the next two years, despite starting from a much lower point they'll probably have a better team than us. Because owners with enough money and the will to win can achieve this, city went from mid table to title winners in 4 years. Whether we will is fairly up for debate, but we have the money, the owners just need to back the next manager and make sure it's actual football people in charge of the spending
I don’t want to hear the world rebuild ever again.
I've said it in a few threads but I don't see how we can't invest heavily this summer.
Out - Mata, Henderson, Matic, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood (Gone), Bailly, Cavani, Lingard and potentially one of Dalot,Wan Bissaka or Ronaldo.
That's 9 or 10 first teamers leaving. IMO we should / will sign 4 good quality players. Get this right with a good manager and who knows, maybe we can be decent again?
Maybe wishful thinking?
Out - Mata, Henderson, Matic, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood (Gone), Bailly, Cavani, Lingard and potentially one of Dalot,Wan Bissaka or Ronaldo.
That's 9 or 10 first teamers leaving. IMO we should / will sign 4 good quality players. Get this right with a good manager and who knows, maybe we can be decent again?
Maybe wishful thinking?
I heartily agree with this.
I grew up in Montreal, Canada. Between 1956 and 1979 the Montreal Canadiens won the Stanley cup 15 times. So, 15 out of 25 years which is pretty similar to what United did in the premier league between 1994 and 2013. I grew up in the 1970s and as a kid I just assumed my hockey team would win it all every other year. Then in a short period of years Sam Pollack, the general manager left, Scotty Bowman the coach left to win elsewhere and the owners sold the team. The quality of management rapidly declined and then to mollify the fans they began bringing in former players from the glory years as coaches and managers. They were terrible at their jobs. The team have now gone 29 years without winning a Stanley Cup and I find it so painful to cheer for them that I rarely even watch them play.
By contrast, I now live in Toronto and began cheering for their basketball franchise in the NBA a few years ago. While a pretty big city, by NBA standards Toronto is not considered a major market team. They are not able to sign major free agents who invariably prefer to go to big American television markets like New York, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, Boston or Dallas where they will get more exposure. For the longest time, when they did manage to draft a star player they would invariably leave as free agents or force a trade leaving the fans with feeling bitter.
Then about 10 years ago the Raptors brought in a new senior management team who have since completely turned the franchise around. They still have the same marketplace disadvantages, but the new group make consistently good decisions within that context. They managed to win a title back in 2019 and within one season of the title 4 of their 8 main players left through free agency. But, they have hung on to a core of 3 up and coming players from that team, added several new young pieces through the draft and through trades. They have a coaching team that consistently improves players individually and wins more as a collective than they should looking at them on paper. As a result, even when not winning they are fun to cheer for because as a fan you believe that they are building something that will look better tomorrow than it does today.
Unfortunately, Manchester United are currently much closer to the Canadiens than the Raptors. They have huge inherent advantages over most of their competitors. But, they squander it with a management team that cannot accurately evaluate their own players let alone properly scout opposing players. Nor, can they follow a consistent long term plan. The only time I've felt really optimistic about United since Alex Ferguson left was two years ago when we had Martial, Rashford and Greenwood up front and Bruno in behind them. It just felt like we were building a youthful group who could grow and improve together and with a few additions in midfield might develop into an all conquering side in a few years. But, instead of improving the midfield and allowing our youthful front line to grow, we brought in Cavani and then Ronaldo to compete with the young forwards. None of the young players improved under United's coaches (former players from the glory years). In fact, the performances of both Rashford and Martial went from promising to disastrous. It's hard to blame management for Greenwood's issues, but one wonders if a more cohesively run club might have protected him from his own demons.
Why did we sacrifice our hope of developing a youthful side to provide Ronaldo with an out to his problematic situation in Italy? Yes, he was a fantastic player for us in the oughts. But, he chose to take his talents to Madrid for his prime years. Why is he then entitled to come back here for his declining years?
Did no one in management stop to think before we gave Sanchez that ridiculous contract that it would destroy our team's wage structure? Year's later we still can't move poor performers on for a fee because they are all massively overpaid.
It's gotten so painful to watch our games that I have to force myself to do it. Like taking bad tasting medicine. The games invariably put me in a bad mood. And I have no real hope that it will improve. Despite United's enduring advantages, you just know the clowns at the top will keep making poor decisions while the leaders at our rivals will make good decisions. Until we get a proper leader at the top of the pyramid who understands Football and management and how to build a quality management and playing team from the top down nothing is going to change. I have sympathy for Jadon Sancho who came to United to join that youthful group of forwards but finds himself surrounded by something else. I would like to hope that we can build around his obvious talents. But, I don't have any confidence that we will.
Good football teams constantly need rebuilding. The problem with ours is that it was never built in the first place - it's just a hodge podge that can only really be understood by studying the commercial imperatives that created it.