Richard Arnold cleaning house | Making 'significant changes' to Social Media strategy etc.

sugar_kane said:
It’s worrying that the “hierarchy” tried to persuade ten Hag to retain Phelan - suggests to me that maybe things haven’t changed as much behind the scenes as we thought, how on earth could they possibly think retaining Phelan is a good idea beyond saving a bit of cash in compensation?

In the end, they’ve yielded but that in itself is a worry - a manager shouldn’t be making all the key decisions, that isn’t a functioning, modern club.
Click to expand...
We’ve got no way of knowing exactly what was said or context though? The Athletic are no journalist puritans… they like a headline as much as anyone and we all know United sells.

It could have been “well we want you to keep him, you better give us a good reason”. Reply “he goes or I don’t come!” or…

… “in the past, we think a lack of continuity hasn’t helped”. Reply “I get that but I’ll have Shteve and I’ll make my own way forward but thanks for the offer”.

Both could be club raising it/ETH saying no but I wouldn’t trust the media (from Athletic to Talksport) to truly know boardroom stuff AND accurately report it without any word play spin.
 
sugar_kane said:
It’s worrying that the “hierarchy” tried to persuade ten Hag to retain Phelan - suggests to me that maybe things haven’t changed as much behind the scenes as we thought, how on earth could they possibly think retaining Phelan is a good idea beyond saving a bit of cash in compensation?

In the end, they’ve yielded but that in itself is a worry - a manager shouldn’t be making all the key decisions, that isn’t a functioning, modern club.
Click to expand...
I couldn't think of a worse possible fit. ETH is hands on everything whereas Phelan is a hands off assistant, was also a big figure in our transfer strategy the summer we went for non-technical players like AWB and James. They aren't denouncing his methods, they are promoting them. People wonder why some want Rangnick at the club over anyone who had anything to do with the most recent farce of a rebuild. We don't need him, he can go and stop leaching around.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
We’ve got no way of knowing exactly what was said or context though? The Athletic are no journalist puritans… they like a headline as much as anyone and we all know United sells.

It could have been “well we want you to keep him, you better give us a good reason”. Reply “he goes or I don’t come!” or…

… “in the past, we think a lack of continuity hasn’t helped”. Reply “I get that but I’ll have Shteve and I’ll make my own way forward but thanks for the offer”.

Both could be club raising it/ETH saying no but I wouldn’t trust the media (from Athletic to Talksport) to truly know boardroom stuff AND accurately report it without any word play spin.
Click to expand...
That's fair but then what would be the criteria for discrediting articles beyond just branding the ones we don't like as horseshit. ETH has actually gone on to confirm one or two media reports people called horseshit (think was the one about insisting on reassurances and some other condition from during the final week of negotiations).

On topic, I don't know how much we insisted but I personally didnt want his name suggested in any capacity. That's not the continuity we need or we might as well bring back Ed as an advisor.
 
With Phelan it could have been as simple as saying to TH you want mclaren as he was coach to fergie, the bridge between the old and the new, well we already have Phelan, what do you think?
 
Greck said:
That's fair but then what would be the criteria for discrediting articles beyond just branding the ones we don't like as horseshit. ETH has actually gone on to confirm one or two media reports people called horseshit (think was the one about insisting on reassurances and some other condition from during the final week of negotiations).

On topic, I don't know how much we insisted but I personally didnt want his name suggested in any capacity. That's not the continuity we need or we might as well bring back Ed as an advisor.
Click to expand...
Agree with all.

I start from not trusting media and work backwards. We're clickbait
 
sugar_kane said:
It’s worrying that the “hierarchy” tried to persuade ten Hag to retain Phelan - suggests to me that maybe things haven’t changed as much behind the scenes as we thought, how on earth could they possibly think retaining Phelan is a good idea beyond saving a bit of cash in compensation?

In the end, they’ve yielded but that in itself is a worry - a manager shouldn’t be making all the key decisions, that isn’t a functioning, modern club.
Click to expand...
We will never actually know that is the truth though.

The day that article was made, literally about 2/3 hours later they then changed their minds and said united had reconsidered.

I suppose it was more a case of them saying why don't you look at what staff we have here first, see who you'd want to retain then decide.
 
wolvored said:
With Phelan it could have been as simple as saying to TH you want mclaren as he was coach to fergie, the bridge between the old and the new, well we already have Phelan, what do you think?
Click to expand...
I think you're correct.

Phelan wasn't involved in the coaching of the team, but was rather used as someone to help maintain a harmony in the dressing room. And it was reported that he did a similar job when he was assistant to Fergie, along with organising/planning preseason etc. The problem I had with Phelan was that Solskjaer made him a influential figure in the recruitment process when Phelan himself was living in the past when it came to understanding the demands of the modern game.

Mclaren from what's being reported is being brought in to do a similar role to Phelan and help ten Hag deal with unforeseen/unexpected issues related to the club.

I think it was David Ornstein who reported 2 to 3 weeks ago about United wanting ten Hag to assess the current staff before deciding on his backroom staff. And I believe that's a sensible thing to do. And it seems like ten Hag has decided to keep the young setpiece coach and bring in Mclaren who knows the club/league and he's also someone he (ten Hag) has a working relationship with.


And it's absolutely fine to take your time before making a decision.
 
Last edited:
Adnan said:
I think you're correct.

Phelan wasn't involved in the coaching of the team, but was rather used as someone to help maintain a harmony in the dressing room. And it was reported that he did a similar job when he was assistant to Fergie, along with with organising/planning preseason etc. The problem I had with Phelan was that Solskjaer made him a influential figure in the recruitment process when Phelan himself was living in the past when it came to understanding the demands of the modern game.

Mclaren from what's being reported is being brought in to do a similar role to Phelan and help ten Hag deal with unforeseen/unexpected issues related to the club.

I think it was David Ornstein who reported 2 to 3 weeks ago about United wanting ten Hag to assess the current staff before deciding on his backroom staff. And I believe that's a sensible thing to do. And it seems like ten Hag has decided to keep the young setpiece coach and bring in Mclaren who knows the club/league and he's also someone he (ten Hag) has a working relationship with.


And it's absolutely fine to take your time before making a decision.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Maybe Moyes should have assessed the current staff he inherited before binning them all off :wenger:

Back then, Phelan was the one he should definitely have kept, thanks to his knowledge of how to handle the egos.
 
Revaulx said:
Where have you found out about this? I was wondering what was happening to Phelan, and haven’t seen anything.
Click to expand...
Nothing has been decided yet regarding Phelan has far as we know. Ramsay is staying with van der Gaag and McLaren joining ETH. All of them will be assisting him on the training pitch as too will he himself be on the training pitch.

Phelan might stay but if he does it'll likely just be as someone else who knows the league but would think he'd not have any influence on recruitment or the like like under Ole. Just a background figure.
 
roseguy64 said:
Nothing has been decided yet regarding Phelan has far as we know. Ramsay is staying with van der Gaag and McLaren joining ETH. All of them will be assisting him on the training pitch as too will he himself be on the training pitch.

Phelan might stay but if he does it'll likely just be as someone else who knows the league but would think he'd not have any influence on recruitment or the like like under Ole. Just a background figure.
Click to expand...
As long as he's on board with ETH and not involved with transfers I wouldn't have any problem with that. If I were him I don't think I'd want to stay around though. He's not yet 60 (which surprised me; I thought he was about my age) and may well want to go back to Australia.
 
Revaulx said:
As long as he's on board with ETH and not involved with transfers I wouldn't have any problem with that. If I were him I don't think I'd want to stay around though. He's not yet 60 (which surprised me; I thought he was about my age) and may well want to go back to Australia.
Click to expand...
He's a Manchester United fan though so might want to stick around and be helpful just for that.
 
We really don't think sometimes do we

Let's advertise one of our retro shirt designs...

With JLingz in it.

Just why, surely there's one of the others we could have picked rather than someone who's been stirring with the media and is hopefully off next season
 
roseguy64 said:
He was not involved in the first team until his promotion last year. I have no idea why you keep bringing up the first team when people have pointed out to you that he had no direct involvement in it. He was working on the women's team and the academy. That's what he was developing. The men's first team is a whole separate thing.

Take your blinkers off.
Click to expand...

He was the head of "Football Development" since 2013.

Take my blinkers off? Maybe be better informed?
 
Keefy18 said:
He was the head of "Football Development" since 2013.

Take my blinkers off? Maybe be better informed?
Click to expand...

What do you think his role was since 2013? Do you think he had inputs or lets say decision maker for first team?

This was from 2016, MEN reported his role as something to do with academy. I don't remember any articles which says he was leading recruitment for first team, all the article was about how he is working with academy staff, scouts or women team.

John Murtough, recently confirmed as United's new head of football development, was at Carrington on Monday to meet Mourinho and accompanied him during Woodward's tour of the club's training complex. The club has confirmed his new role is not a directorial appointment, though.

A measure of Woodward's workload can be gauged by the number of individuals who report to him. Murtough reports to club secretary John Alexander, whom jointly oversaw the running of United's academy following Brian McClair's departure until Nicky Butt's February appointment, and Alexander reports into Woodward, as do scouts.

United's scouting network is expected to undergo a shake-up over the coming months as part of the academy's revamp. United are intent on reinforcing their academy structure, having seen City's development of the City Football Academy, while Everton's network of scouts are widely regarded as superior than United's. Scouts at other clubs are believed to have contacted United offering their services.

Mourinho will have the final say on signings based on the analysis he receives. However haphazard United's activity in the transfer market has been since Sir Alex Ferguson retired, the structure is described as 'fundamentally the same one' as when David Gill was overseeing negotiations with the Scot and, with Mourinho's managerial presence, United's activity should be calmer. Woodward does not solely negotiate deals, either. Murtough and head of corporate development Matt Judge collaborate with him
Click to expand...

As per this report, he was reporting to John Alexander who was overseeing United academy.
 
Keefy18 said:
He was the head of "Football Development" since 2013.

Take my blinkers off? Maybe be better informed?
Click to expand...
roonster09 said:
What do you think his role was since 2013? Do you think he had inputs or lets say decision maker for first team?

This was from 2016, MEN reported his role as something to do with academy. I don't remember any articles which says he was leading recruitment for first team, all the article was about how he is working with academy staff, scouts or women team.



As per this report, he was reporting to John Alexander who was overseeing United academy.
Click to expand...

@Adnan might know more about this, he sort of follows/remembers things well.
 
roonster09 said:
@Adnan might know more about this, he sort of follows/remembers things well.
Click to expand...

I posted a link a few pages back and highlighted the quote from the article. Basically detailed his CV and he joined United along with Moyes in 2013 has head of football development, he was promoted last year to DoF on the back of that essentially.

He was praised for "developing" the likes of Rashford and McTominay :wenger:
 
Adnan said:
The biggest problem is that people to this day don't understand the difference between a board/manager structure, and a DoF/head coach structure. And it's funny to read people wanting to apportion blame to the head of football development at United, which is a role that oversees the development beneath the first team. And the same roles do exist at other clubs. Spurs, Arsenal etc (to just name two clubs) have also had people as the head of development beneath the first team. And their remit is to oversee the development of their departments. So for example at Spurs, John McDermott was the head of development beneath the first team, and Pochettino controlled and directed the football side at first team level. Currently at United we have Justin Cochrane who is the head of player and coaching development and we shouldn't blame him for the mistakes at first team level.

The head line below is pretty self explanatory as far as the role of a DoF is concerned.



And as far as contacts go, Matt Judge was the director of contract negotiations in a board/manager structure with the manager having the luxury of having his own personal scouts. Players like Varane, Sancho, Ronaldo were signed under the same structure (I also had no issues with those signings). Because Solskjaer (the manager) didn't report to John Murtough but rather he was reporting straight to Ed Woodward according to David Ornstein/Laurie Whitwell. So there was no DoF structure at that time and one shouldn't be confused by someone being given a title when the manager model was still in existence. But those changes IMO were driven by Richard Arnold, who was preparing to take the reigns as the CEO, and wanted to be guided on the football side of the club by having the buffer of a DoF between himself and the head coach, which is a sensible move imo.

The role of the DoF is a simple role and should be evaluated over several years. And the experience one needs to be a DoF is to be able to run multiple football departments on the football side of the the club according to Dan Ashworth. And one shouldn't compare the way the RedBull clubs operate as something we should also do because we're Manchester United and not a stepping stone club that buys young players to then sell for profit a few years later.
Click to expand...

@roonster09 I've already explained that in the above post mate.

The head of development is a common role at many English clubs where there's a figurehead overseeing the development of the club beneath the first team. He (Murtough) developed the scouting, the data science department, sports science and brought in the likes of Nick Cox and Justin Cochrane to further raise the level of youth player development. And that is there for all to see with the number of highly promising young players we've got at the club from various age groups.
 
Last edited:
Keefy18 said:
I posted a link a few pages back and highlighted the quote from the article. Basically detailed his CV and he joined United along with Moyes in 2013 has head of football development, he was promoted last year to DoF on the back of that essentially.

He was praised for "developing" the likes of Rashford and McTominay :wenger:
Click to expand...
Adnan said:
@roonster09 I've already explained that in the above post mate.

The head of development is a common role at many English clubs where there's a figurehead overseeing the development of the club beneath the first team. He (Murtough) developed the scouting, the data science department, sports science and brought in the likes of Nick Cox and Justin Cochrane to further raise the level of youth player development. And that is there for all to see with the number of highly promising we've got at the club from various age groups.
Click to expand...

I hope that helped. We had clear distinction between first team and under age teams. Murtough, Cox and few others were always mentioned when the topic was about academy or reserves. Murtough was promoted later, he had nothing to do with this mess.
 
The head of development is a common role at many English clubs where there's a figurehead overseeing the development of the club beneath the first team. He (Murtough) developed the scouting, the data science department, sports science and brought in the likes of Nick Cox and Justin Cochrane to further raise the level of youth player development. And that is there for all to see with the number of highly promising we've got at the club from various age groups.
Click to expand...

roonster09 said:
I hope that helped. We had clear distinction between first team and under age teams. Murtough, Cox and few others were always mentioned when the topic was about academy or reserves. Murtough was promoted later, he had nothing to do with this mess.
Click to expand...

The first quote says he was responsible for scouting, data science, sports science and brought in a number of staff... pretty sure we've been an embarrassing failure in these areas. Our scouting has been a steaming pile of dog turds for over a decade, we simply chase the most expensive flavor of the month.

RR is quoted this week in the athletic asking why on earth we didn't plan for Matic's retirement with a valid replacement whilst spunking some 90m on 3 kids in Diallo, Pellistri & Donny! Where is the scouting and planning there? Where are the youth player options even to consider for Matic's replacement? Just one example of many in how poorly we are ran as a club.

All these area's are failures and have been for over a decade.

Spin semantic however you like, he had a senior role on the football side of things and has done the square root of sod all to get giddy about, but folks want to blame the guys in suits like Woodward for Murtagh and co's failings.
 
Keefy18 said:
The first quote says he was responsible for scouting, data science, sports science and brought in a number of staff... pretty sure we've been an embarrassing failure in these areas. Our scouting has been a steaming pile of dog turds for over a decade, we simply chase the most expensive flavor of the month.

RR is quoted this week in the athletic asking why on earth we didn't plan for Matic's retirement with a valid replacement whilst spunking some 90m on 3 kids in Diallo, Pellistri & Donny! Where is the scouting and planning there? Where are the youth player options even to consider for Matic's replacement? Just one example of many in how poorly we are ran as a club.

All these area's are failures and have been for over a decade.

Spin semantic however you like, he had a senior role on the football side of things and has done the square root of sod all to get giddy about, but folks want to blame the guys in suits like Woodward for Murtagh and co's failings.
Click to expand...

Ok Woodward, guess who was running the club? Yes it's Woodward. Good that we finally got rid of him.

fecking hell, just now I saw the last line :lol:.
 
copen1945 said:
Turns out that there is no strategy at all.
Click to expand...

They are not going to let you know of the strategy until the new team comes in and they have discussed on the type of improvements they want to see. Its normal in corporate organizations.
 
copen1945 said:
Turns out that there is no strategy at all.
Click to expand...

Arnold quite clearly indicates that the woodward/ceo one man show is over. There are now specific roles for specific people with specific remits and now accountability for those remits.

As he said to those fans, Murtough is the man doing transfers. if we feck up this window, then it's actually on someone that has to face consequences. No more woodward top down, finger in every pie, unaccountable to all but the owners.

Small changes, but there is a new strategy and direction.
 
copen1945 said:
Turns out that there is no strategy at all.
Click to expand...

I mean, pretty clear that there is? Players won't be signed by the CEO. If the manager wants the player and if the recruitment team shares the opinion, then we go for them. Which is how it should always be.
 
Tom Van Persie said:
He comes across as a decent guy that is serious about turning the club around.
Click to expand...
He's present instead of sitting in an office in London, which is a massive improvement on the last guy who didn't want to be involved with anything at the club except sponsorships. Whether or not he's actually going to make a difference will be shown in how the club performs over the next 12 months or so, and I don't mean where we finish in the league.
 
The Facebook page is embarrassing. I only follow it for the comments. Living in the past FC. Look at how good we used to be FC. Here's Rio's tour diary FC.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.