Reserves Draft | Aldo Staine 14-6 EAP

[Moby]

The change makes it better but you are still easily short of numbers at the back.

At all times my players are enjoying 1v1 battles against defenders they will not have much trouble in going past without any backup whatsoever.

Elkjaer has been left alone with Blind, an incoming cross from Amancio with the Dane knocking it down for Kempes or Cubillas has become an obvious route for goal.

Cubillas still have immense space to pick out with his passing and incredible movement of Kempes and Elkjaer to pick out.

Amancio against Hughes - the battle will be won by the Spaniard as good as the Pudlian was, more so in a 1v1. My right side of Amancio-Sagnol is still a massive threat and will outnumber the opponent.

My defense is still the stronger of the two and will concede less goals than the counterpart, that much is obvious.

 

[Moby]

So what? Every team has it's features and you have Amancio. Just because you have a winger doesn't give you a win.

As usual, changing my words according to your convenience.

I said width, not a winger. Width can be provided by anyone, not just a winger. And not only do most teams would need that, your team NEEDS it the most to create any sort of space in my superior backline. It has to be either the wide players in attack or the fullbacks/wingbacks doing that, you won't find many setups over the years which has neither. You have neither.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The change makes it better but you are still easily short of numbers at the back.

At all times my players are enjoying 1v1 battles against defenders they will not have much trouble in going past without any backup whatsoever.

Elkjaer has been left alone with Blind, an incoming cross from Amancio with the Dane knocking it down for Kempes or Cubillas has become an obvious route for goal.

And the rest of my defence will be doing what?

Cubillas still have immense space to pick out with his passing and incredible movement of Kempes and Elkjaer to pick out.

Oh, I bet Stiles will disagree. Immense space, eh? Funny guy you are.

Amancio against Hughes - the battle will be won by the Spaniard as good as the Pudlian was, more so in a 1v1. My right side of Amancio-Sagnol is still a massive threat and will outnumber the opponent.

With Nadal behind, it's not as big as you make out to be.

My defense is still the stronger of the two and will concede less goals than the counterpart, that much is obvious.

 

[Moby]

It's a compact defence shielded by 2 midfielders who will not venture forward (mentioned this repeatedly before). No hurrying back for recovery.

Anyone else here thinks this is a likely scenario given the tactics of both the teams, the style of players involved and the consequences?

With a classic AM trio

What's a classic AM trio?

 

[Moby]

Space to play his passes into, silly. You have three at the back, and I have three attackers plus the fullback joining in. How the hell is there not going to be space to pick out a player? You think three defenders are enough to pick out three attackers? Funny why most managers play a back four against 1/2 forwards.

You are in a 90 minute long 3v3 at the back, that screams goals. Not to mention your defense still isnt good enough in terms of quality to keep my players out. No amount of playing the underdog will overturn that simple truth.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I said width, not a winger. Width can be provided by anyone, not just a winger. And not only do most teams would need that, your team NEEDS it the most to create any sort of space in my superior backline. It has to be either the wide players in attack or the fullbacks/wingbacks doing that, you won't find many setups over the years which has neither. You have neither.

With Stiles and Andrade on Cubillas and Kempes your team lacks a straight route to goal.

Your most optimal (maybe only the dependable) route to goal would be through Amancio/Sagnol. No wonder you are harping on that. And even they could not provide the service that Elkjaer needs to be a consistent threat. If Nadal drops back, between him and Blind they will have things under control.

I don't see who you'll be defending against my attack. Here's what Brady can do...

Between Michel and Ceulemans on the other side, not even your defensive midfield can hope to contain them.

And Dalglish/Rush is a attack far better than yours. Proven and deadly.

 

[Moby]

As soon as I looked at his formation I was worried that people in favour of him trying something new will overlook the difference in quality (I have easily the two strongest CBs on the park) and the tactical flaws, specially the ones he started with and go with their hipster instinct. I hope that doesn't happen, one shouldn't be punished for playing a conventional setup when that's the one that will win the game. I commend his attempt (I was pretty much expecting him trying something like this) but it's not good enough here, on various fronts already discussed at length.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Anyone else here thinks this is a likely scenario given the tactics of both the teams, the style of players involved and the consequences?

What's wrong?

2 DM's to just defend
3 AM's to shuttle the midfield and final third (AM's as in attacking midfielders not #10s).
2 FW's to finish

You have three at the back, and I have three attackers plus the fullback joining in. How the hell is there not going to be space to pick out a player? You think three defenders are enough to pick out three attackers?

And my 2 DMs suddenly vanish?

 

[Moby]

And Dalglish/Rush is a attack far better than yours.

Anyone agrees to this? Far better?

What about the two defenses then? Nadal and Blind far better than Picchi and Vierchowod as well?

Not that I wasn't expecting oil salesmanship here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It's been a good but tedious discussions. We've most of what we want to say, I think.

I'll step back and just comment on other posters views...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What about the two defenses then? Nadal and Blind far better than Picchi and Vierchowod as well?

Not that I wasn't expecting oil salesmanship here.

Any snake oil would be you convincing yourself. I've never once claimed that your CBs are anything but good or mine was better. Not better...but not that far behind either.

You're just fishing here.

 

[Moby]

And my 2 DMs suddenly vanish?

Nor do my AMs and CMs. The three in attack are Kempes, Elkjaer and Amancio! Then there's Sagnol running free. Your DMs by your own admission are busy elsewhere.

 

[Moby]

I've never once claimed that your CBs are anything but good or mine was better.

Err, so you believe Blind and Nadal are better defenders than Picchi and Vierchowod?? Just making sure I heard that right.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Your DMs by your own admission are busy elsewhere.

Quote me please.

You are just creating stuff here Aldo.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Err, so you believe Blind and Nadal are better defenders than Picchi and Vierchowod?? Just making sure I heard that right.

Simple english dude. I never claimed mine was better.

This is getting silly.

 

[Moby]

Quote me please.

You are just creating stuff here Aldo.

What? Isn't Stiles busy minding Cubillas? I haven't counted him in my three in attack!

 

[Moby]

Simple english dude. I never claimed mine was better.

This is getting silly.

Haha, for once I was thinking you were going that far.

So with a better defense with more numbers in support (6 at the back with someone like Kempes always willing to run back and help out) do I not have a better chance of conceding lesser goals than the defense that is 1. Inferior in quality 2. Lesser in numbers and 3. Has lesser support?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Meh, I'll wait for some neutral posters to comment.

 

[Moby]

Meh, I'll wait for some neutral posters to comment.

It's a simple question sir..

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So with a better defense with more numbers in support (6 at the back with someone like Kempes always willing to run back and help out) do I not have a better chance of conceding lesser goals than the defense that is 1. Inferior in quality 2. Lesser in numbers and 3. Has lesser support?

I have a back 3 plus 2 DM's against your front 4.

1) With Stiles on Cubillas I still fail to see who'll dictate the game for you. Ofc, there's no "taking him out of the game"...but between playing deep, on the counter strategy and Stiles presence...all put together I do not see Cubillas having a big impact in this game. I have more creativity in Brady/Michel/Ceulemans than you have in Cubillas/Kempes.

2) Kempes dropping back is overplayed. He is a wing forward. He will drop back but he'll not help out in the midfield battle. Even if he does, it takes away his threat upfront. I have Ceulemans dictating play in the middle and Dalglish organizing things upfront.

3) Moving the ball between defence to offence - Simply put you only have Szepan doing that in the middle. You are entirely dependant on fullbacks to do this. Without them constantly shuttling you'll find it difficult to transition. (See point 1 on Cubillas) I do not see Elkjaer getting any kind of consistent service apart from occasional crosses from Amancio and odd balls from Cubillas/Kempes. He just does not have enough to work with. And yes I do not see you scoring even against my 3 man defence.

4) Your CBs are top class. But you underestimate my FWs. Proven and deadly combo. Rush just needs a whiff of goal to score. And Dalglish will constantly drop between your CB and DMs and orchestrating play. Your DMs will be stuck between Ceulemans/Brady/Michel ahead and Dalglish behind. I don't see them coping up. I will outscore you.

 

[Enigma_87]

Haha, for once I was thinking you were going that far.

So with a better defense with more numbers in support (6 at the back with someone like Kempes always willing to run back and help out) do I not have a better chance of conceding lesser goals than the defense that is 1. Inferior in quality 2. Lesser in numbers and 3. Has lesser support?

To be fair Ceulemans provides support for the midfield as well. He was very versatile and could play from CM to SS. Excellent physique, "the beast" nickname would be much more apt for him rather than Nadal.

He can also participate in both phases - offensively and defensively, adding physical presence. Fairly quick too after he gains a little bit of pace.

1) With Stiles on Cubillas I still fail to see who'll dictate the game for you. Ofc, there's no "taking him out of the game"...but between playing deep, on the counter strategy and Stiles presence...all put together I do not see Cubillas having a big impact in this game. I have more creativity in Brady/Michel/Ceulemans than you have in Cubillas/Kempes.

Dunga is very good passer on the ball. He might help starting attacks from deep, which in counter attacking style is pretty useful.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Dunga is very good passer on the ball. He might help starting attacks from deep, which in counter attacking style is pretty useful.

Don't think there's much difference between Dunga, Stiles and Hughes in that capacity. Give or take, I'd put them all in the same bracket overall. Don't think anyone has a clear cut advantage.

Point is that he needs Cubillas to orchestrate. Kempes/Elkjaer dropping back takes away a big chunk of goal threat. And oh, boy I do rate Stiles to do a classic role here. He's a terrier and Cubillas doesn't have the pace of Eusebio to try and get away. Even if Dunga does the same to Ceulemans, I have Brady and Michel who can take up the load. Brady can entirely run the game himself and has done so for both Arsenal and Juventus. My midfield advantage is quite substantial. It will give me more possession and stop his forwards from getting service.

Without Cubillas having a stellar game, he'll depend on Dunga's long passes or Amancio/Sagnol and Nadal dropping back will cover for both.

 

[Moby]

He was very versatile and could play from CM to SS. Excellent physique, "the beast" nickname would be much more apt for him rather than Nadal.

No doubt but when the ball is won it is likely to be brought down the right flank for example with Sagnol taking it forward and combining with Amancio or a quick transition down the middle where Picchi finds Cubillas (he can be down the midde, or on the left, he'll be constantly evade his marker).

I have way too many ball playing outlets in defense and midfield (everyone apart from Pietro can pick my attack out). The likes of Andrade, Nadal, Stiles are a far cry from my flight in transition. And that is the core of this setup, and what Edgar is fielding is simply one of the last strategies I'll go with against a team that counters with such force and pace. If anything I'll look to reduce as much space at the back by adding defenders and/or playing a more pragmatic approach. Not go gung-ho with a three defenders, lack of players who can handle the transition quickly and limited players at the back and midfield. His present CM duo is Stiles and Nadal, it offers little going forward in terms of passing or dribbling as compared to Szepan and Dunga.

 

[Moby]

Don't think there's much difference between Dunga, Stiles and Hughes in that capacity.

Hughes wasn;t known for his passing range or distribution, was he? He had good technique and he'll be good in pass and move but not what you require.
Nevermind that you are having a laugh if you are asserting that Hughes is as good a CM as Dunga. Edgar pls.

 

[Moby]

Kempes/Elkjaer dropping back takes away a big chunk of goal threat.

Why the hell would both drop back? Haven't you read the OP? When Elk drops, Cubillas bombs forward. When Kempes attacks the box, Elk drops into that left channel. Suddenly acc to you in a counter attacking setups where players are directly supposed to be running towards goal will drop deep at the same time? It's a beautifully fluid setup where players will interchange instantly.

Moreover, it's not like I am against a brick wall where I need loads of creativity to break it down. Bayern had a front four of Ribery, Robben, Muller and Mandzukic, in that sorta setup quick passing, awareness, pace, movement and directness is far more important than playing an inch perfect through ball. Thanks to my strategy, there's no point in adding another passer (I know you have stacked a couple and which for me is overkill). It's a perfect balance of a playmaker, a deadly inside forward, a flamboyant winger and an all round centre forward, a setup well proven to work on several occasions.

Go to the first page and quote the post I made about the goal threat in the team and tell me if you can match that. My wide players are two times Pichichi winners. Goal threat is the last thing you should talk about in this game. Less so with your inferior defenders.

 

[Skizzo]

Midfield Numbers: I also bring to your notice on my better midfield. He has Dunga behind and Cubillas ahead with just Szepan shuttling through the middle. I have Brady, Michel and Ceulemans who all will put a good shit in the middle and it's built on a solid base of Stiles/Nadal. I have clear dominance here.

That's a new tactic.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That's a new tactic.

It ain't a new tactic though. Suddenly the logic behind Edgar's British core becomes clear:

 

[Moby]

 

[Skizzo]

It ain't a new tactic though. Suddenly the logic behind Edgar's British core becomes clear:

Must have been doing some deadlifts

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Must have been doing some deadlifts

Touche

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Why the hell would both drop back? Haven't you read the OP? When Elk drops, Cubillas bombs forward. When Kempes attacks the box, Elk drops into that left channel. Suddenly acc to you in a counter attacking setups where players are directly supposed to be running towards goal will drop deep at the same time? It's a beautifully fluid setup where players will interchange instantly.

My point being, Cubillas will not be that free to drop forward. It'll more often just be Kempes dropping back to get some plays running.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That's a new tactic.

Well, they'll shit on Aldo's midfield for sure

 

[Skizzo]

Well, they'll shit on Aldo's midfield for sure

 

[Moby]

My point being, Cubillas will not be that free to drop forward. It'll more often just be Kempes dropping back to get some plays running.

Dont get it.
Why would anyone be dropping as deep as you are suggesting when I have ball playing ability from the back and a counter attacking strategy? I'm not going for patient buildups or anything where I need players to constantly be creative, nor am I facing a difficult defense which will deserves that kind of a creative unit. Cmon Edgar, counter attacks.. I've given you examples already. Who was overly creative in the Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez attack who needed to drop deep and get plays running? It was Scholes picking out players from deep and them combining extremely quickly to take the ball forward without and that was against defenses who parked the bus and in theory would need someone threading the needle. Your undermanned defense will not hold any such requirements, rather what I have is what will hurt you more. If you were against a team that took a lot of time on the ball to create any attacks you wouldn't be in trouble coz your players would get behind the ball in time but here they are being hit by deadly counters time and again by players who would attack the entire width of the pitch and full pelt and wouldn't waste any time in getting the ball forward. They have the required tools, balance and platform to execute that.

 

[Moby]

Well, they'll shit on Aldo's midfield for sure

Angel Nadal in midfield against Dunga and Szepan. Sure.
This is why I confirmed you about the comments on the comparison between the defenses, you'll go to any lengths.

 

[harms]

Edgar looks better after a change.

I still don't why he didn't line-up like this, a classic W-M

Brady----Rush---Michel
---Dalglish--Ceulemans--

Brady+Dalglish+Ceulemans are a mess together anyway, but now it's looks slightly better

 

[Moby]

I still don't why he didn't line-up like this, a classic W-M

Brady----Rush---Michel
---Dalglish--Ceulemans--

Both Brady and Michel look bad in those outside left and outside right roles.
They aren't genuine wingers, Brady certainly isn;t and while Michel played out wide, we saw in the last draft how Gio used him in a more let's say Beckham-esque role than someone who would stretch play that far and drag defenders with him. Still it wouldn't be too bad but Brady certainly doesn't fit there. It's a problem from back to front, no width whatsoever. It's not practical at all and wouldn't work against a defense such as mine.

 

[Enigma_87]

Edgar looks better after a change.

I still don't why he didn't line-up like this, a classic W-M

Brady----Rush---Michel
---Dalglish--Ceulemans--

Brady+Dalglish+Ceulemans are a mess together anyway, but now it's looks slightly better

I don't think Ceulemans is an issue at all, he can play him at CM and won't look out of sorts one bit. I don't think that front 5 is EAP's problem at all. The defense is(and Nadal).

 

[Moby]

Brady+Dalglish+Ceulemans are a mess together anyway,

Indeed, when I saw Edgar picking him I mentioned in the thread that I thought he was going for a 4-3-3 with Stiles as DM and Brady as LCM which would be perfect roles for them. If he wanted to play this formation he should have picked a proper winger instead. Sagnol has such an easy role in this game and he will make a big difference on that side while overlapping.

 

[Moby]

he can play him at CM and won't look out of sorts one bit.

Well in a game of this level the difference between 'not out of sorts' and optimum can make the difference.
I remember @Balu used Cuelemans as the AM in a false 9 formation behind Cruyff and that looked perfect to me.
Even in this game, I have no issue with Edgar's instruction of him bombing forward when Dalglish drops back, you wouldn't find me saying anything about that and that works for me. He wouldn't look that great in a deeper role in my opinion as his goal threat was an important weapon.