Uh, no. I'm being highly critical of Muhammad's 1) motives and / or 2) mental health.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
- Start date
I think a lot of it is with surface level understanding of history and just finding out for the first time there were wars in Islam (1400 years ago in Arabia that is).
You wont see the "Warlord!!!" "Desert cult religion!!" type of criticism from western history professors who know what they are taking about for the most part. The "wars against mecca" here being brought up just proves that. But hey, if people read a quick thing or two over the internet and think it's as simple as brutal wars made Islam into what it is then you can't really argue with it can you
That's a fantastic article.
My reaction as well to the aggressive war with the Meccans. Again, it's basic early Islamic history that you're pretty fuzzy on.
Okay bud.
Wow. Thanks for taking the time to write all that and don't worry I don't think it's about undermining, it's nice to have a conversation/discussion.
I had the weekend off so was able to engage in the conversation but back to work and time is limited so I'll digest what you have written and respond when I have time.
Once again thanks for taking the time. I may not always agree with folk but appreciate the effort some folk put in conversations.
Being Muslim I get the whole "you're bound to defend..." But in this conversation there are non Muslim and self declared atheists saying the wars were not as being presented. But there you have it
I'm used to similar stands despite evidence.
Then why don't you come with a valid piece of scientific evidence instead of your own opinion? Or even the opinion of someone closer to the time would help, unless you've discovered a new piece of evidence 1400 years on.
Prior to him claiming prophethood, he was known to be the most truthful amongst his tribesmen. Afterwards the same, even by those who hated him.
But yeah, you should come with something valid.
The thing is I wasn't even defending anything. The debate was about aggressive and defensive wars and "choosing aggression against Mecca" is just historically (with whatever history we have) incorrect. It is a misunderstood religion and weak knowledge on such a basic fact of Islamic history should be, and is for me, a red flag. That is why whenever discussing Islamic or middle eastern history I like to vet who knows what they're saying. I have spent a lot of time on understanding the history and context of events, the best we can. For those who read a bit about it, it's always a binary understanding of what happened. Either all wars were peaceful or there was rampant aggression and brutality.
He heard a voice in his head that nobody else heard telling him that he was chosen by god as a prophet.
Per the DSM-V, a schizophrenia diagnosis requires 2 of the 5 to be present...
Delusions
Hallucinations
Disorganized or incoherent speaking
Disorganized or unusual movements
Negative symptoms
He absolutely fits symptoms 1 and 2 to a tee. So would every single other Abrahamic prophet that claimed to see / hear things from god.
And this isn't new. Psychoanalysis of prophets has been a thing for quite some time. An example article...
https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214
The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered
Evan D. Murray, M.D., Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D., and Bruce H. Price, M.D.
How can you diagnose someone that's not physically present?
A non-believer obviously can't believe that Muhammad truly received the will of God through interactions with angels. Given that, what is the alternative? It means that either Muhammad was a liar, deceiving people for personal gain, or that he suffered from delusions resulting from some undefined mental illness. The last one is obviously far preferable as far as morality goes, but they are the only options: divine prophet, deceiver, or sincere delusion.
I think it was Thomas Statz who said "its perfectly normal for hundreds of millions of people to speak to god each day but if he speaks back you have schizophrenia".
But cant you just say that you weren't around at the time and you are hesitant to believe it?
I'm not hesitant to believe it, I flat out just don't believe it. You wouldn't say you're hesitant to believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus (in a thread discussing the tooth fairy and Santa Claus), and this is the exact same for me.
He seems fun…
Psychiatrists / Psychologists have provided evaluations of numerous historical figures by using the same method they would a living one… by examining their symptoms.
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Exactly. Me believing he was a true believer with a mental illness is me being generous to him. I’d say the same thing about Abraham or Jesus.
Yes. I mean… people to this day claim that god speaks to them and tells them prophesies and that they’re a new leader that he’s chosen… they’re mentally ill and in need of treatment, or are fully sane and leading a cult.
From the article I posted above…
As many as 60% of those with schizophrenia have religious grandiose delusions consisting of believing they are a saint, God, the devil, a prophet, Jesus, or some other important person.3
Quite the article…
Only according to 9th century sources. According to 7th century sources, the prophet of the Arabs conquered Jerusalem
If this was true why did Muhammed take more wives than Muslims are allowed within the rules of the religion? Why did Muhammed cuckold his adopted son Said, by making him give him his wife? Why did a 60 year old Muhammed take slave women after murdering their husbands and fathers that he would then force to have sex with him? That surely is not fighting his worldly desires of lust from the ideal man according to Islam.
Muslims also believe that despite Muhammed having sexual relationships with so many women that he didn't have a male heir. So they believe he either had a very low sperm count or had an STD that made him infertile. Unless ofcourse they believe the reason for him not having a male heir was due to his sexual fixation on pre-pubscent children. Or there's another possibility, perhaps the leaders of the time didn't want to empower any decendants of Muhammed.
He had male children who died in infancy.
Because he received a really well timed revelation telling him it was totally okay to break the rules that he gave to his followers, since he’s god’s super special guy and all. Duh! Silly. Haha. Nothing suspicious to see here at all.
God works in mysterious ways, especially the islam one. Have many wifes, they are inferior to you, when you die you get many virgins (what happens to the wifes? do they all applaud you?
)Come to think of it, maybe I was to harsh on religion. Islam does make some sense after all.
So does a horoscope.God works in mysterious ways, especially the islam one. Have many wifes, they are inferior to you, when you die you get many virgins (what happens to the wifes? do they all applaud you?
Come to think of it, maybe I was to harsh on religion. Islam does make some sense after all.
God works in mysterious ways, especially the islam one. Have many wifes, they are inferior to you, when you die you get many virgins (what happens to the wifes? do they all applaud you?
Come to think of it, maybe I was to harsh on religion. Islam does make some sense after all.
How long time do they remain virgins after you feck em?
Anyway it's almost as if a jihadists heaven was catered to men in their physical prime when their testosterone and desires were at their highest.
I'm Cancer in horoscope and there are no dozens of virgins promised there, so I reject it. I decided that I want the religion that gives me:
1) immortality (they all do this but some do it better)
2) virgins (Virgins in my experience suck at sex but they are held in high regard by religion, so maybe I'm missing something. A few dozens of them should do.
3) Little to no need for contributing with money. The after life and crazy sex is all good, but I don't want to pay in this life. In Europe we are all, most, forced to pay for religions with taxes.
It's not that easy to pick but I say, Islam does start to make sense. Sure, Christianity also sees women as second class humans, but they are not full on slaves in the afterlife. No, I think that to deal with my own frustrations in life, with making connections with people or with building a relationship, the better solution is Islam. I will be protected from criticism by everyone because it's religion yo! Yes.
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Yeah. So they go to war and die.
But they get to feck forever in heaven with plenty of women none the less.
Yes. And that is moral also. Lot's of fecking is what god wants, if you can just do him this little favor of sending more money to the temple, or vote for this and you know, god can do it all but not everything. Also, coming from god, people sick or needing help forget about it, it's all about the fetus. That and from time to time you need to kill people if serious things happen, like a cartoon made of me or you know.
Yes but there is a finite number of young women, as virgins. What happens after? Sorry, your allocated number of virgins has run out, from now on, we only have men. That's not cool. Some people will complain they did horrible things just so now they sleep with men? Not cool.
Feels like Islam is missing some fine print there. What happens after the virgins run out? Does god make more of them just for them, I mean us? It's a math problem here that mahomed did not address.
People of the Islam faith, please settle this issue. If we are in Heaven for eternity then we have an obvious lack of virgins here. Does God make more just for us or was it just a limited thing. More info is needed.
Also do the women get 32 attractive men to bang forever?
Imams in Islam can have many wives but cannot drink wine. Catholic priests cannot have any wives, but can drink wine.
Both of them believe in the god of Abraham, and both of them believe that Abraham heard god's voice that told him to kill his son.
Both religions are scams. (All scams are bad, but not all scams are equally bad!...)
They get a stick by a defined length to be beaten with.
But Abraham didn't kill his son do its kind of mute. I'd feel uncomfortable with any dad being well on his way to kill his baby son because the voices told him so.