I cannot for the life of me ever recall an atheist knocking on my home door to discuss their religion and/or dive into where I attend church.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
- Start date
I cannot for the life of me ever recall an atheist knocking on my home door to discuss their religion and/or dive into where I attend church.
Quite possibly. I'm a little unique, certainly among my peers and friend group. My parents were brought up Catholic by my very religious grandparents (well 3 of 4 were) but didn't have much time for organised religion so I didn't go to Church or really get indoctrinated by my parents as a child. If I ever asked my Mother always told me some believe and some don't and it's up to you to decide. My Da never pushed his beliefs on us but told us in simplistic terms as I was quite young when I asked that what he believed was that we live and we die and the energy that drives us when we're alive comes from the World/Universe and goes back into it. I suppose he was Agnostic in that he couldn't definitely say one way or the other if there was a God but he certainly didn't believe in the Christian one. I really first remember being told about God when I went to the local school at age 4 which was Catholic. There were no non-denominational schools in country at the time as far as I know. My grandmother would also talk about Christianity as she went to Mass every day of her life. I actually came home crying from my first day at school as my parents forgot to warn me everyone would start blessing themselves and praying and I hadn't a clue what was going on!
I still did my Communion and Confirmation and all that because everyone else did, my Grandparents wouldn't have been happy and my parents didn't want me to feel left out. Although, I really wouldn't have minded so much. So I suppose my default position was probably agnostic growing up with that influence around me. In or around the times of those sacraments when the priest was coming into the school and the focus was all about that, I suppose you could say my atheism waivered a little and at one point I think I was around 12 I told my Mother I'd like to go to Church and she said 'yeah no problem I'll bring you'. But really as soon as I said it out loud I knew I was only really fooling myself. There were far to many inconsistencies/contradictions for me to see it as anything other than a product of the minds of men and without trying to be insulting what I'd consider a bit narcissist and ego-driven. I believe in people and the capacity for goodness in them and I'm also very much aware of the capacity for evil deeds but there's far too much of that evil/inexplicably horrific diseases and downright randomness in the World for me to believe that any of this was intentional.
Last edited:
Okay.
They were from Armagh.
I’ve been to Shannon, Limerick, Tralee, Killarney, the Ring of Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Cashel, Kilkenny, and Dublin.
Last edited:
Ahh right...City* or County? I'm in the latter at present and about 8 or 9 miles from the former.
* it's not really a city
The County.
What the Bible may or not say is irrelevant because I'm not talking specifically about the Christian concept of God.
And if neither neither free will nor the predestination theories - being the only two options - paint this god in a good light, then what you're effectively saying is that in your view nothing can ever possibly paint this god in a good light.
Indeed.
Considering it allows evil to exist, yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.
Apologies for assuming what religious family you were discussing there. Typically discussion on free will vs. predestination centers on the Abrahamic deity, since it’s a key debate in that family of faiths.
There are many explanations for the existence of evil which do not have to mean that God doesn't or can't exist.
For example:
* You can't have free will if the committing of evil acts is ruled out. And allowing free will does not have to mean that God approves of or encourages evil acts.
* How do we know what is good if there is no bad to compare it too? Just as how do we know what is light if there no darkness to compare it to?
* Good vs evil can be seen as creative tension, which impels progress.
* Good sometimes emerges from evil precisely because that evil existed in the first place and preceded the good.
* Good vs evil can be analogised to left hand vs right hand where, for example, the push between the two allows you to do many things with your hands that it would be difficult, or in some cases impossible, to do with just one hand.
* God's perspective is so far beyond any human conception that it's impossible to fully understand why evil exists and what it is from a purely human perspective ... just as an earthworm can't understand what a cloud is and why it exists.
* The concept of karma allows for both good and evil, but says that you reap what you sow (not necessarily in a single life-time) - not according to some moral judgement from God, but simply as a result of a natural law as to how the universe works that God has put in place.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I have had my own doubts concerning perceived inconsistencies and contradictions but after researching about these, I always ended up convinced they weren't actually what they seemed initially (maybe due to my existing faith I was already predisposed to be convinced and so any form of justification or explanation was sufficient for meQuite possibly. I'm a little unique, certainly among my peers and friend group. My parents were brought up Catholic by my very religious grandparents (well 3 of 4 were) but didn't have much time for organised religion so I didn't go to Church or really get indoctrinated by my parents as a child. If I ever asked my Mother always told me some believe and some don't and it's up to you to decide. My Da never pushed his beliefs on us but told us in simplistic terms as I was quite young when I asked that what he believed was that we live and we die and the energy that drives us when we're alive comes from the World/Universe and goes back into it. I suppose he was Agnostic in that he couldn't definitely say one way or the other if there was a God but he certainly didn't believe in the Christian one. I really first remember being told about God when I went to the local school at age 4 which was Catholic. There were no non-denominational schools in country at the time as far as I know. My grandmother would also talk about Christianity as she went to Mass every day of her life. I actually came home crying from my first day at school as my parents forgot to warn me everyone would start blessing themselves and praying and I hadn't a clue what was going on!
I still did my Communion and Confirmation and all that because everyone else did, my Grandparents wouldn't have been happy and my parents didn't want me to feel left out. Although, I really wouldn't have minded so much. So I suppose my default position was probably agnostic growing up with that influence around me. In or around the times of those sacraments when the priest was coming into the school and the focus was all about that, I suppose you could say my atheism waivered a little and at one point I think I was around 12 I told my Mother I'd like to go to Church and she said 'yeah no problem I'll bring you'. But really as soon as I said it out loud I knew I was only really fooling myself. There were far to many inconsistencies/contradictions for me to see it as anything other than a product of the minds of men and without trying to be insulting what I'd consider a bit narcissist and ego-driven. I believe in people and the capacity for goodness in them and I'm also very much aware of the capacity for evil deeds but there's far too much of that evil/inexplicably horrific diseases and downright randomness in the World for me to believe that any of this was intentional.
).You’re missing my point.
If god does exist, and it allows evil to exist when it could choose not to, that means god isn’t good.
Right. All powerful or all loving: pick one.
It doesn't. And I listed in my previous post several reasons why.
You forgot all-knowing ... which means knowing things that you and I might not know about why evil exists.
And I think you’re wrong.
And this is just a fancy way of hiding behind the “god works in mysterious ways” mantra.
@GlastonSpur are you religious?
It's not a question of hiding. I've already given many possible explanations as to why evil exists - one of which included the impossibility of humans fully understanding the motives, mind and purposes of a God (if we assume God exists, which I am for the purposes of this discussion) that has created a Universe that contains more stars than there are grains of sand on every beach on Earth.
Last edited:
When humans have the answers for everything ever, only then we'll have the authority to come to a conclusion. Right now we know next to nothing.
So you haven’t made a decision about whether you believe in a god?
I don't follow any organised religion, most of which peddle childish and/or superficial beliefs for the masses of people who have never had a genuine transcendent experience of their own and so don't know any better.
However, I believe that philosophical physicalism/materialism is hugely mistaken, that life continues after physical death and that behind everything is an existence - doesn't matter what you call it - God, Great Spirit, Goddess, Ein Sof etc - that brought everything into existence and has a purpose.
I also believe that God gains or benefits from us just as much we as need God. It's not just a top-down, one-way relationship.
Oh I do believe. I think we've been given just enough intelligence to to appreciate how wonderful the Universe is, but denied further insights as to why.
Okay, but why though? At least organized religions have scripture to explain their very specific beliefs. Christians belive that life continues after physical death because the Bible says it does, and it goes all the way back to Jesus (and potentially further than that). But at every step of the way, you have scripture to explain that it is the way it is. What evidence do you have of life after physical death? What evidence for God? Particularly a God with purpose. And what about your specific belief that God needs us just as much as we need God? Unless you've directly spoken to this God, how else would you have figured it out? In the cases of organized religion, there's almost always someone who has chatted with God and figured these things out.
What's the purpose behind all those Russian war crimes you're (rightly) so immersed in?
That's a lot of questions. I can only say that my beliefs/perceptions stem from a combination of some personal experiences, intuition, some study of the writings of various philosophers and "spiritual" figures, and the application of rational thinking (or at least what I consider to be rational).
Russian war crimes result from the existence of free will, coupled with the brutish and sadistic state of the perpetrators, egged on by a peer-culture that permits or even encourages such acts. Previous posts have already looked at some possible reasons why free will - thus the possibility of evil - exists.
You don’t need to have free will, and assuming you do, to paraphrase Elie Wiesel, god’s indifference is worse than his approval or disapproval.
We wouldn’t need to if a perfect god’s creation was actually perfect.
That sounds nice if you’re writing a novel.
Again - unnecessary if a perfect god actually made a perfect creation.
You’ve started to repeat yourself.
Again - “mysterious ways” is a cop out.
A god doesn’t need to exist at all for this to work.
You seem to assume that any God worthy of the name would only want an already-perfect world, populated by pre--programmed biological robots who don't have free will.
But such a world would be static, without any evolution for the better, and without any real meaning ... like playing a game of Sims where nothing changes and nothing can change.
Moreover, it assumes that God "himself" can't and doesn't evolve, and doesn't need beings with free will to help "her" do so.
Anyhow, I'm not out to convince you of anything. If you don't believe that God exists (however conceived) then OK. I'd only suggest not getting too fixed on the idea and keeping an open mind.
So instead this god created a world in which he chose to let people destroy one another and suffer all forms of suffering, just so we can “evolve”? That doesn’t make this god sound any better whatsoever.
A deity that “evolves” with us would be a deity that isn’t all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present… so not much of a deity at all.
I’ve handled my path from being fervently religious to not religious all on my own, but thanks for the advice.
The whole debate about free will and God allowing evil to flourish always smacks to me of someone who's already decided God exists trying to then justify how they'd allow the things that go in the World or even make a World like this. Mental gymnastics invariably ensue.
If you actually start from the premise that God doesn't exist and examine the evidence of what we now know about Science, Evolution, Nature, Psychology/Psychiatry, the Universe etc you're unlikely to jump to God in my opinion.
There are an infinite number of ways this World could have been made if you accept the premise of a Creator. People could still have free will if we didn't have psychopaths, for example. It's quite clear to me that's it's a runaway train that never had a driver.
If you actually start from the premise that God doesn't exist and examine the evidence of what we now know about Science, Evolution, Nature, Psychology/Psychiatry, the Universe etc you're unlikely to jump to God in my opinion.
There are an infinite number of ways this World could have been made if you accept the premise of a Creator. People could still have free will if we didn't have psychopaths, for example. It's quite clear to me that's it's a runaway train that never had a driver.
Quite right
God evolves now?
That‘s a new one for me.
That‘s a new one for me.
You most certainly could have free will if the committing of evil acts is ruled out. Not complete free will, but I'd argue we've never had that anyway. For example I want to be able to jump 5m up in the air but god limited my physical ability to do so. What would be the difference between limiting my ability to jump and limiting my movement when I'm about to harm someone? Or even limiting my mind from thinking about it in the first place? According to the mysterious ways you speak of human perspective is already severely limited, so we're hardly opening new doors here.
So if a teenager can make a video game where you can demolish everything in sight except your friend, then surely a god would be able to implement the same thing for us. According to your post you seem to be pretty pro-evil so I don't know if you think this is a good idea, but giving up a pretty worthless part of free will to stop us from hurting each other is a pretty good trade off in my mind.
Last edited:
At the end of the day there are pretty much only two possible scenarios:
A) There is no God.
B) God is a cnut.
99.999999% on the first anyway but still open to the second.
A) There is no God.
B) God is a cnut.
99.999999% on the first anyway but still open to the second.
You’ve retained the fervency though.
Kinda the point of the thread…
It's a common quote taken out of context. An all knowing God would know more than we as people is from that stand point common sense. Considering everything people know is learnt, there's no preface for the human mind to gain knowledge without the need of being informed.
It’s an interesting thing to note though. I’ve often found that many atheists display a fervency not dissimilar to evangelicals.
And it doesn’t surprise me that the most well known come from countries with a Protestant tradition.
Which is strange because another poster mentioned above that religion has no play in societal influences which is not true. The concept of the seven day week, each day signifies reference to Latin / Greek culture in religious ideology Monday through Sunday. Saturday the English interpretation referenced after the Roman god Saturn small example. The transition from the Julian to Gregorian calendar of which we account the year 2022 is predicated upon religious belief. A.D "in the year of the Lord" for historic references. Take this out of the west there's no financial tax year because the systems are built on these infrastructures.
It's almost like some see what they have observed and intend to super impose their opinions as fact which they are not.
Sure, but that should be obvious. The most secular countries in the world are almost all former protestant countries (at least those from a western tradition). Protestantism deliberately removed some of the mystery and obfuscation inherent in Catholicism (and even more back then), and that was always going to lead to a more open environment for religion and irreligion.
I know. In my experience many people just never really examine the assumptions that their world view is built upon.
What?