Religion, what's the point?

Yeah, this is really a butcher of chronology. The pagan aspects of Christmas and Easter were co-opted later, and the rituals themselves have nothing to do with the celebration of Christ's birth, death and resurrection. None whatsoever.
So, why does the faith celebrate them in such a way? This is clear evidence for diversion in the faith. It is an innovation. The rituals have lost their meaning, and the religion doesn't know the right way to celebrate them. We have Santa Claus as the integral part of Xmas, a Christian celebration to celebrate the birth of Christ - Syriac scholars have said that the date was moved from Jan 6th to Dec 25th so it could coincide with a pagan festival. How is one meant to reconcile that?

Yeah, your basis for that opinion is refuted by manuscript evidence.
Not really, no. Considering the contentiousness between the King James version and the New Intl version, and the fact that many eminent Christian scholars reject parts of one version, then parts of the other. Essentially, no one really knows which is one is more faithful to the original text, which means it is unreliable.

By the way, the purity laws of the old testament could not be maintained the moment the second Jewish temple was destroyed, so you in fact cannot follow them today.
See - even that rationale doesn't make sense.

Jesus (AS) came and taught his teachings. Does that supersede the OT? Then, the second temple was destroyed...so that means at that point the OT is obsolete? What about the period between Jesus (AS) and the second temple?
 
Errm. Not according to the church actually. Those rituals are now part of the worship. The saviour's birth is celebrated at Xmas no matter when it might have been, the Easter festival is far more important to the salvation story too.

Or do you wish to imply that all Pagan elements were discarded?
Yep - that was my initial point. It's paganistic rituals that fell under the umbrella of Christianity that modern Christians have rationalised as part of the religion.
 
Yep - that was my initial point. It's paganistic rituals that fell under the umbrella of Christianity that modern Christians have rationalised as part of the religion.
He also doesn't recognise the extent to which even choosing which texts to translate to inform us about the religion, has involved many effectively arbitrary choices.

He seems focussed on the fact that old manuscripts exist along with some chronology for them, so he relies upon a close approximation to the ur-texts in ?Aramaic? (My memory is shot. :eek:) or spoken tradition.
 
When did they say that?
I would think it quite possible that one or two did tbh.

Scientists are often poor in assessing philosophical implications of their findings. (Eg. That pain receptors sending signals to a fish's brain automatically implies they consciously feel pain. All it really means is that certain elements are involved in their reaction to it.)
 
Which NT verses say it is ok to eat pork etc?

What is the rationale behind making it ok? Why was it changed?

According to a quick google search (Idk, I'm not Christian so don't care what it says really)

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. 8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. Acts 11:7-10, KJV

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Matthew 15:11, KJV
 
He was illiterate but he signed documents?, for me he was literate, but this would be an endless debate with nasty final. I already tried in other forums adding suras and more suras with historical mistakes and contradictions and I always receive a philosophical answer justifying all errors.
He misread it and Qran have many things without sense, just write "mistakes in Qran" in google.
I guess what He said had a easy adaptation to the medieval Arab society.
You are naming the old testament, I am not jew.
Surely the Bible has changes , many because of Constantine and the Council of Trent , but is easy to research and find the message.For example Jesus was born in 2bc and in my opinion was married, but I still believe the message of love. It not Christianity that says that everything that is in our book is sacred and perfect :p:angel:
He (SAWS) had a seal / signet that he used to sign things off with. I think it was on his ring (need to check). Do you mean that?
 
Anyway, I'm going to step away from this thread, I can see it going wrong.

I just rail against the idea that ISIS are perverting true Islam, when they're actually upholding its original doctrine.
Are you an ISIS recruiter? Because you sure as hell sound like one. The majority of Muslim's worldwide are trying to invalidate the ISIS theology but you seem to be giving legitimacy to their doctrine.

There could be a young teenager lurking on this forum who is confused as to the nature of his religion and you would be pushing that youngster towards the "correct" ISIS doctrine.
 
Are you an ISIS recruiter? Because you sure as hell sound like one. The majority of Muslim's worldwide are trying to invalidate the ISIS theology but you seem to be giving legitimacy to their doctrine.

There could be a young teenager lurking on this forum who is confused as to the nature of his religion and you would be pushing that youngster towards the "correct" ISIS doctrine.

Don't talk shit.
 
According to a quick google search (Idk, I'm not Christian so don't care what it says really)

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. 8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. Acts 11:7-10, KJV

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Matthew 15:11, KJV
Ok thanks - but where does it say anything about pork? Those verses seem to be a little vague. How is one meant to come to the conclusion that it is ok to eat pork from that? @Mutter Merkel - do you know?

Verse 11 seems to be about controlling the tongue ie watching what you say and speaking good things. That's how I take it anyway.
 
So, why does the faith celebrate them in such a way? This is clear evidence for diversion in the faith. It is an innovation. The rituals have lost their meaning, and the religion doesn't know the right way to celebrate them. We have Santa Claus as the integral part of Xmas, a Christian celebration to celebrate the birth of Christ - Syriac scholars have said that the date was moved from Jan 6th to Dec 25th so it could coincide with a pagan festival. How is one meant to reconcile that?

It is not known exactly when he was born and centuries later was associated with the solstice . It is celebrated 24th for an agreement but I don´t think it has anything to do with the meaning of the ritual, the birth of the savior. I never celebrated Santa Claus, but the wise men, on 6th of January. I think that ortodox also celebrate that date
 
To be fair there's a lot of written evidence about the other supreme beings. Santa Clause is a better example than this noodle bloke. That's just ridiculous.

There is nothing written that constitutes any evidence of there being a god. Stories don't equal evidence otherwise Zenu would be real (although I think he is more Satan than God).
 
It is not known exactly when he was born and centuries later was associated with the solstice . It is celebrated 24th for an agreement but I don´t think it has anything to do with the meaning of the ritual, the birth of the savior. I never celebrated Santa Claus, but the wise men, on 6th of January. I think that ortodox also celebrate that date
Do you not think its association with a solstice is an innovation to the religion?

What possible significance does the solstice have to do with Jesus (AS) and a Christian celebration?
 
If anyone's talking shit, it has to be you.

You've talked about facts, and you haven't provided any. You're saying IS sticks to the text but I'm still waiting for some evidence from you.

I suspect they stick to the bits of the texts they like and the interpretations of said bits that they like. To be fair this is what most religious people do but thankfully that doesn't normally end up with a genocidal rampage.
 
If anyone's talking shit, it has to be you.

You've talked about facts, and you haven't provided any. You're saying IS sticks to the text but I'm still waiting for some evidence from you.

There are myriad articles on the internet about it. Google it.

That 'The Atlantic' one, for example.
 
There is nothing written that constitutes any evidence of there being a god. Stories don't equal evidence otherwise Zenu would be real (although I think he is more Satan than God).
Ye that's the point I was trying to make with Santa Clause, but apparently didn't do a good job of it!
 
You said ISIS follow the correct doctrine, ergo by your statement pacifist Muslims are WRONG to be pacifist.

Which part of that it "shit"?

Read about ISIS's doctrines, principles and policies. They're all based on a very literal interpretation of the Koran.
 
Do you not think its association with a solstice is an to the religion?

What possible significance does the solstice have to do with Jesus (AS) and a Christian celebration?


Because it replaced an existing Pagan festival (solstice) that was prevalent all over Europe and the Roman Empire. So when Constantine Christianised his Empire he decided to keep the existing festival and simply incorporated it into his new religion.
 
Are you an ISIS recruiter? Because you sure as hell sound like one. The majority of Muslim's worldwide are trying to invalidate the ISIS theology but you seem to be giving legitimacy to their doctrine.

There could be a young teenager lurking on this forum who is confused as to the nature of his religion and you would be pushing that youngster towards the "correct" ISIS doctrine.

I think he means that Islam is a belligerent religion , so what Isis is doing is simply a literal, a very literal reading. The schools of thought have adapted the message, for example the suras about the treatment of women can be smoothed but what he said is more than clear
 
I think he means that Islam is a belligerent religion , so what Isis is doing is simply a literal, a very literal reading. The schools of thought have adapted the message, for example the suras about the treatment of women can be smoothed but what he said is more than clear
He said ISIS are following the correct path.

That statement alone can get a Muslim put under surveillance, yet it's OK for a non-muslim to say that?
 
Because it replaced an existing Pagan festival (solstice) that was prevalent all over Europe and the Roman Empire. So when Constantine Christianised his Empire he decided to keep the existing festival and simply incorporated it into his new religion.
So, by that reasoning it is an innovation in the religion. If, hypothetically, Jesus (AS) was alive at the time that Constantine decided to do this, would he have condoned it?
 
He said ISIS are following the correct path.

That statement alone can get a Muslim put under surveillance, yet it's OK for a non-muslim to say that?
I don´t think that he is promoting ISIS, actually quite the opposite.
"But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand" .
" And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."
It´s only two examples, but if you are a person without education and in poverty it is easier than they brainwash you saying that they follow the real message of the prophet
 
So, by that reasoning it is an innovation in the religion. If, hypothetically, Jesus (AS) was alive at the time that Constantine decided to do this, would he have condoned it?


He'd have been shocked that his teachings spawned a new religion. He'd have been praying to Jehovah for forgiveness.
 
I don´t think that he is promoting ISIS, actually quite the opposite.
"But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand" .
" And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."
It´s only two examples, but if you are a person without education and in poverty it is easier than they brainwash you saying that they follow the real message of the prophet
Thanks for posting that. What do the following ayats say? Also the last ayat you mentioned is part of the longest Surah, what about the other ayats in that Surah like ayat 256? The fact ISIS blatantly ignore that ayat, does that still mean they are literalists following the "correct" path?

Sorry for derailing the actual subject of this thread, I will answer in the religion thread instead.
 
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Thanks for posting that. What do the following ayats say? Also the last ayat you mentioned is part of the longest Surah, what about the other ayats in that Surah like ayat 256? The fact ISIS blatantly ignore that ayat, does that still mean they are literalists following the "correct" path?

I don´t know,I'm not an expert. I took the text of the women because is very famous , but there are many on jihadism .What says the ayat that they ignore?. The truth is that it makes little sense what they do, they ban music and sports but then they are all day on the internet.
 
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I don´t think that he is promoting ISIS, actually quite the opposite.
"But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand" .
It's important when discussing the Qu'ran that it is done so in the correct context.

For the above verse, the tafsir (commentary/interpretation) of the verse was first compiled by Ibn Abbas (RA), who was one of the best commentators / scholars of the religion. His commentary was thus:
Ibn Abbas, a companion of Muhammad, wrote the earliest commentary on the Quran, and to this part he himself said this is only a light tap. When asked about the light hitting, he said it refers to using a siwak (toothbrush). There are sources that say that Muhammad himself never hit a woman and forbade it. Furthermore, Muhammad commented on this verse, where he said “a light tap that leaves no mark."
And this is the last resort after advising, forsaking them etc.

And it's funny you didn't quote the next verse after that one, from Surah an Nisa, verse 35:
And if you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted [with all things].
Here it shows that any major discord between hubby and wife that can't be solved after those first three things...should lead to two people from either side to help, rather than escalating the 'beating' from a light tap to something more.

So, I think in conclusion, the actual 'strike' is a light tap, as if with a toothbrush. Which translation did you use? Some translations actually make that differentiation in the text.

" And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."

For this one, again, it's interesting you quote that verse in isolation without looking at the wider context it is used in. rednev has a similar approach. Here's the verses around that particular one:

2:190 Fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors.

2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah [Persecution] is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah [Persecution] and [until] worship is for God. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

I've bolded some of the bits to show you that we are allowed to fight back if we ourselves (the Muslim) is being attacked. If Person A attacks Muslim, then the Muslim is within his rights to fight back. But notice there's not initiation of the fight to Person A from the Muslim. Furthermore, if they stop, there is no further aggression, and it is then haraam for a Muslim to raise his hand against such a person.

In modern times, it doesn't need to go to such an extent as we have laws of the land and regulation that if another person attacks you, you can fight them back without killing them, and if they are captured/arrested they'll be given a trial.

This is why it is important to look at the wider meaning / context rather than pluck out verses as it's easy to portray one thing over another.

Edit: Just to add - (nearly) every verse in the Qu'ran when it talks about these types of thing is followed by one saying 'but peace is better'. And both of us need to understand that this is the way the religion is. That peace is better.
 
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I don´t know,I'm not an expert. I took the text of the women because is very famous , but there are many on jihadism .What says the ayat that they ignore?. The truth is that it makes little sense what they do, they ban music and sports but then there are all day on the internet.
Mate, I'm not having a go at you. It was the previous guy who said ISIS were following Islam correctly. There are many schools that interpret verses differently but it doesn't help when there are people like the previous guy who tells all and sundry that ISIS are the ones that are "proper" Muslims.

Carvajal, I'm Muslim and like many many many others I will always be Muslim, but having people on this forum and on the internet as a whole say that im "plastic" and that ISIS is following the religion better...it doesn't help, in fact it makes young kids look into stuff more on the internet which leads to them ignoring their local mosque and family upbringing and instead accepting what some anonymous cleric on the internet tells them.

Edit: ayat 256.
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
 
@Uzz as I told you I already tried this in other forums and the answer were a multitude of verses , different analyzes and interpretations of medieval scholars , or "mistranslations" ... but I do not see it clear after all.
I appreciate you analyzed the verses I posted , but there are dozens talking about holy war

I could keep posting and you could reply telling me that we must analyze the context , the translator , etc ... but as I told you we would not arrive at any conclusion . In short , it seems to me a very belligerent message for the definitive god and unfortunately very open to interpretations
 
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Sorry @RedTiger I wasn´t having a go with you either. If I am right muslims say that Qran is perfect, so actually could be considered that the literal interpretation is the right one.For this I think that Toobias meant that Isis can find easy convince many people. Luckily there are different schools but as I said to Uzz everythings seems very open to interpret and too many hard verses
 
@Uzz as I told you I already tried this in other forums and the answer were a multitude of verses , different analyzes and interpretations of medieval scholars , or "mistranslations" ... but I do not see it clear after all.
I appreciate you analyzed the verses I posted , but there are dozens talking about holy war

I could keep posting and you could reply telling me that we must analyze the context , the translator , etc ... but as I told you we would not arrive at any conclusion . In short , it seems to me a very belligerent message for the definitive god and unfortunately very open to interpretations
Ok but it might have something to do with posting verses out of context, no? I mean, if we post things without any context, of course they are easy in interpret whichever way we want.

If we look at the correct relevance and context, and see how meaning is to be derived, then they make more sense. Is that wrong?
 
Sorry @RedTiger I wasn´t having a go with you either. If I am right muslims say that Qran is perfect, so actually could be considered that the literal interpretation is the right one.For this I think that Toobias meant that Isis can find easy convince many people. Luckily there are different schools but as I said to Uzz everythings seems very open to interpret and too many hard verses

Mate it's impossible to understand Islam simply by reading the Qur'an and Hadith. There is a centuries old scholarly tradition that needs to be engaged with, through which Muslims have articulated a very diverse range of interpretations of the texts. So this means that while there is certainly a militant tradition for Muslims to draw on, there is also a peaceful, contemplative tradition at hand as well, and much in between - issues such as legitimate authority, consequences, etc. need to be considered. What tradition Muslims tend to emphasize at any given time will be largely determined by other factors external to the religious texts.

What ISIS and Salafis in general have done is abandon that scholarly tradition and taken it upon themselves to interpret the texts as they please. Even then most Salafis don't believe a legitimate authority exists to sanction much of the law, and so they remain mostly apolitical. Conveniently, ISIS have granted themselves that authority by declaring their caliphate.

In any case it's not for non-Muslims to decide what the 'true' Islam is and what a 'proper' Muslim is.
 
That's pathetic; Christians were persecuted in Rome and slaughtered in its Colosseum for 300 years. Christians are still the most persecuted people group across the entire world.

The Roman Catholic Church has done a lot of damage to the reputation of the Church (body of believers), but people forget it was other Christians the Roman Catholic Church was persecuting for disagreeing with its man-made traditions.

You have not been oppressed one iota by Christianity in this country, and it's your ignorance that is really despicable.

Well there's all kinds of bollocks in that, but not least is the fact you yourself point out that no only does Christianity have a horrendous history against other religions, it also has against itself....and that's a point you made while trying to defend it.

As for the Roman's, as someone else has already posted, there's little evidence that Christians were ever "thrown to the lions" in the Colosseum etc, and roman Empire, once converted to Christianity, did some quite horrendous things to non-Christian people it conquered, not least, slavery, forced conscription, and the blood sport you erroneously mention in their Colosseum.

Christians the most persecuted. No...that's just stupid, there are areas where Christians aren't the dominant religion and face persecution, but Christianity still doesn't come close to some other religious groups.

Regarding myself, i haven't lived the 2000 years i was referring to so i thought it evident i wasn't referring to myself as an individual, and indeed the worst i had to face myself was arguing with ridiculously stupid, arrogant and ego-maniacal R.E teachers who actively punished kids for not being as brain-washable as they would like.
 
What ISIS and Salafis in general have done is abandon that scholarly tradition and taken it upon themselves to interpret the texts as they please. Even then most Salafis don't believe a legitimate authority exists to sanction much of the law, and so they remain mostly apolitical. Conveniently, ISIS have granted themselves that authority by declaring their caliphate

Exactly what I was about to post! Top post 2cent!
 
I agree @2cents , and this is another thing annoys me.

Ideally, there is nothing wrong with following the salaf. But how am I 1600 hundred years later going to know how the salaf behaved unless I follow a madhab the best I can? The madhabs was when the religion was written down and codified, and this is what we, Muslims today, need to remember.

It's plain stupidity when I see a Muslim classify themselves as a salafi but with no real understanding of the madhab they follow. It's akin to me saying I am fluent in Spanish because I learnt the lyrics to the macarena.
 
Ok but it might have something to do with posting verses out of context, no? I mean, if we post things without any context, of course they are easy in interpret whichever way we want.

If we look at the correct relevance and context, and see how meaning is to be derived, then they make more sense. Is that wrong?

We could also say that I have to take the verses in a certain way to fit in a moderate image or because the truth is too hard when they are alone.
"Lucas 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High,because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked" I don´t need to situate the verses of Bible in any context, to read the previous or the next verse or look for some philosophical interpretation to find the message of love.
If Qran is perfect each line should have a harmonious meaning by itself . In any case I understand what you mean, you must think that I try to catch the ugly things, the next time I'll look for verses on the same topic without individualizing