The average worm delusional? Your whole world view is based on delusion/illusion, it's a bit sad.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Quite. But apples are nice. Mass is awful. You have an old man telling you what you should do. You have to shake hands with people you don't know, they just happen to be beside, in front or behind you and and they pass around a plate collecting money... that's my drinkin money!
Many people including myself find meaning in prayer. Group prayer is even more powerful. And it is believed that many cultures before Organized religion came into being combined prayer along with the forces of nature to call on extra light into their lives. Organized religion is just a much watered down version of what people were already doing before it was invented and over the centuries it became more and more poisoned and twisted by greedy dictators who wanted to control the masses.
Of course there's good in all the major Organized religions but people from open minded societies are at a point now where they realize that all organized religions also carry with them too much ancient toxic caveman rules and beliefs and open minded people are realizing we actually have no need for these religions anymore and we can still pray and help people without their useless ancient doctrines. Unfortunately it's the primitive people from disadvantaged countries that are the easiest to manipulate and brain wash with these useless ancient religions so they are the ones still getting brain washed unfortunately
Of course there's good in all the major Organized religions but people from open minded societies are at a point now where they realize that all organized religions also carry with them too much ancient toxic caveman rules and beliefs and open minded people are realizing we actually have no need for these religions anymore and we can still pray and help people without their useless ancient doctrines. Unfortunately it's the primitive people from disadvantaged countries that are the easiest to manipulate and brain wash with these useless ancient religions so they are the ones still getting brain washed unfortunately
Prayer is just a way to find comfort for things that you have no control over.
It really isn't, but even if it was, there'd be no reason to care if atheism were correct. You should know that the logical conclusion of a materialistic worldview is nihilism. What would even be the merit in trying to convince somebody you were right if you knew that all things come from dust and return to dust with no hope of the eternal? If your worldview were the right one, then us arguing about it would be vanity. I think that's REALLY sad. In fact, atheism has about as much substance as a jelly on the edge of a diving board.
The only reason to care is if I am right.
I believe most things are already predestined to happen but prayer and intentions can sometimes slightly change outcomes and sometimes not.
There's none so blind as those who will not see.
Unless there's some way for life to matter even without a God.
Holds as much water as your response to the problem of evil, otherwise I'd engage properly and flesh what else means this isn't a knock-out argument.
Well it's either one of the other, isn't it?
How do you know when prayer has worked and changed the outcome of an event, if sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't?
Well your never going to find the answer to a question like that from a Jewish, Catholic or Muslim priest....If anything they are going to know less about truth and life than one of your mates down at the local pub
Matt 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" 11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. 15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
It's a denigration of real world life in all its pain and glory and utter reality - relegated to the Championship in favour of some old bollox about the hereafter.
If god has a plan for you what's the point in praying to try and change it?
Your eyes and ears and intellect are cursed because you believe in old superstitions.
.......and God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Well I have one friend that is a very well known psychic and another who works as a shaman in southa america and I discuss these matters a lot with them.....and everything they say about truth and religions is very similar to what is said in very popular channelled books that are on the book shelves today such as 'Abraham Hicks' books, or 'A course in Miracles', 'Kryon' books or 'Ra: The law of one'....I suggest you try reading some of this sometime and see if it resonates with you and it might also make you see after what nonsense organized religion mostly is
knew you would enjoy that 
That didn't answer the question. I'm asking how you can tell that prayer has altered the course of events if it works sometimes and not others.
Let's say for instance you pray for John Terry to slip when taking a penalty for Chelsea in a Champions League final. How do you know that this particular prayer was answered when he slips and the shot hits the post, if sometimes you pray and it doesn't change the outcome? It could just be that he slipped because the turf was wet, rather than some spiritual intervention.
Indeed, after Pharaoh hardened his own. The Bible is quite clear that God gives people over to a delusion because they choose it. I was an atheist who knew nothing of Christ, only what I'd been told by the secular world and that science had all the answers, and I pursued my delusion until I came to the end of myself. There's an anecdote of Jewish sheep herders who upon seeing their sheep jump to a ledge they can't immediately jump back from allow them to eat all the grass in that area and to become desperate with hunger. Only then will they go and call to them.
It takes many to realise the ruin of the route they've taken to look to God's mercy.
The Lord refers to us as sheep for a number of reasons. Interesting that he chose the dumb sheep to liken us to when most would like to think of themselves as a lion or some other exotic, powerful creature. I agree with him.
Unorganized religion is just as much nonsense as organized religion. Give it up.
Aye, but believing rationalising that all the human suffering on earth is part of God's plan isn't idiotic. He loves each and every one of us... but.. that baby that died of starvation wasn't baptised, so he's gone to limbo. Unlucky, should have been born in a wealthy christian home! Oh wait, that doesn't happen any more? When did god decide that? Or did the church decide it because it was an unpopular belief? So are they really gone to heaven? Or are they in limbo but we've told the parents their in heaven to comfort them? But once the parents die and get to heaven won't they realise their baby isn't there? How will god explain that one to them?
Catholics got rid of limbo dancing since it was too clearly irrational and unfair even for them.
Does Herman really believe in the fiery hell with demons and pitchforks?
Faith is so personal. I believe we do have a choice about what we do. ..and the real life...or death is yet to come.
No because that's not the Biblical concept of hell. The Biblical concept of hell is that it is a holding place for the fallen angels and the souls of those who reject Christ. Hell and death are described as being thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation where the degree of conscious torment will depend upon the works done in the flesh. It will be awful for many, and indescribable for more than a few. I believe in something much worse than a hell of physical fire and suffering. To a degree I believe, as CS Lewis put it, that hell is locked from the inside. Most unbelievers will openly declare that they want no party with the Lord even if he exists as the Bible describes him and to hate righteousness is to love evil. Unlike earth where God is described as restraining evil out of mercy, hell will be full of unrestrained sinners burning in their own lust for all things crooked and perverse but they will never desire the Lord's forgiveness, only an end to their misery, which is as a result of their own depraved nature. Hell will not be run by a mob of demons and Satan will ultimately be bound to his own humiliation. The individual will be overcome with their own despair and suffering.
If you read Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man does not cry out for the Lord's mercy or desire reconciliation, he merely asks for Lazarus to dip his finger in water and place it on his tongue. While no sinner will desire the horror of hell, they would rather that than friendship with God. they would rather the total darkness of hell with no absolutely no light, hope, no love and they will have their heart's desire: separation from God. God is light. God is love. Without him, you get hell. As CS Lewis said, there are only two kinds of people. Those who say to God, your will be done and those to whom God says, your will be done.
So no, I don't believe in literal, physical fires and demons with pitchforks. I believe in darkness, depravity and the burning desire to do evil and an end to their suffering but never the Lord.
On a comment I saw earlier: baptism does not save infants or anyone else. Only the Lord Jesus Christ saves. Water baptism (full immersion) is a public declaration that an individual is going to follow the Lord and it is an outward experience of what has happened inwardly. That a person has been buried with Christ and raised to new life in him. It is not necessary for salvation but it is something Christians should want to do because it was a command of Christ to baptise disciples in his name. There is also no limbo. In death a person either goes to be with the Lord for eternity or they go out of the presence of God for all eternity. There's no in between, and no way back
For an understanding of the different kinds of baptism, understand the symbolic way in which the ancient Hebrews were baptised in Moses. They went through the sea (water) and travelled under the cloud (spirit). The Hebrew word shekhinah describes the indwelling of God's spirit Biblically. In the OT he inhabited a temple, above the cherubim of the ark of the covenant behind a veil that was off limits to everyone bar the high priest who would only enter once a year and if he sinned in the presence of the Lord, he would instantly die. Thanks to the blood of Christ God can now dwell in the temple he always intended to indwell but could not due to unrepentant, and unatoned for sin, the human body. Baptism is the symbolic experience of having the Lord's presence.
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You're obviously a smart fella. What are doing mixing this kind of primitive nonsense/
Because I know the Lord and don't seek the world's recognition. Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those who are being saved (Biblical salvation works in three tenses. Saved - once and for all by Christ's finished crowsswork. Being saved - as temporal beings God's mercy comes to us anew each day. And will be saved - while still living, we have not made it to the end of the race yet, but we have confidence in Christ that we will) but foolishness to those who are perishing.
I certainly thought Christianity was ridiculous (I'd have used stronger terms than that) before God removed the scales from my eyes and I know this is also true of Christian friends who were previously atheists or agnostics. It is is of course foolishness to the unregenerate.
That's why I am not concerned by the whole "religious nutter" thing.
But you must have doubt?
That's why I have a thirst to learn. I do what the Bereans did and study my Bible daily to approve what is true and scorn what is not. Some deeper Biblical concepts are quite hard to grasp and you must be willing to concentrate for long periods of time to grow in wisdom. I suppose you could say the Bible is self-affirming in that each time it solves an intellectual problem I might have the more I experience how true it is. I'll tell you the moment I was utterly convinced that Jesus Christ is God. When I was reading from the servant songs in Isaiah as a tentative believer, I came across Isaiah 52 and 53. reading that, all doubt concerning who Jesus really is was removed from my mind because I knew that Isaiah could not have been rewritten after the life of Jesus because we have things like the Greek Septuagint and the dead sea scrolls to demonstrate that the Isaiah we have today is that which existed before and during the life of Christ. And the second thing was that I knew that Jesus could not be an ordinary man trying to fulfill the prophecies of scripture because nobody could orchestrate the whole thing down to the price of silver (which is actually a prophecy from Zechariah, granted) he'd be sold for and if he had, then it would not make sense to think that all of his disciples (barring Judas who was never "saved") would be just as willing as he was to die for a lie they'd invented.
You have to remember, these were Jews who were ostracised from their own synagogues and persecuted to death. One might conceive of one very brave and silly man who was prepared to die for the sake of Messianic prophecy while knowing that he was not the messiah, but one can't conceive more than ten of his closest companions joyfully proclaiming the lie until the time of their inevitable and pretty gruesome death.
So, from an intellectual point of view, there was only one valid answer, which is that Jesus Christ really is who he says he is. The prophecies concerning the life of Christ are only one line of evidence. There is also the fact Christ prophesied the second temple would be destroyed utterly, and it was by the Romans in 75 AD. A big clue as to when the Gospels were written is the fact that none of them mention the destruction of the second jewish temple in confirmation of christ's prophecy when they are so diligent in mentioning many of the old testament prophecies Christ himself fulfilled in his life. There are also the OT prophecies concerning the shape world events would take concerning the great empires that would come and go, including Alexander the Great, as one example, and also the promises which have been fulfilled concerning Israel. No other nation on earth has been utterly destroyed and the peoples scattered to all corners of the earth (as the Bible prophesied would happen to the Jewish people and it also prophesied strong antisemitism everywhere they would eventually go) and then the people brought back together and the nation rebuilt just as the Lord promised also.
It's asking more of me to believe it's all coincidence than to believe the Bible really is the word of God. That's the intellectual side of it, anyway. Most importantly to me, I know the Lord, something I know you won't accept, but that's my own internal witness to know I am not deceived. I usually doubt the most when I've been sloppy in prayer and study... So, I hope that gives you some insight.
No. He prefers the one with half naked whores in leather, endless drum solos and nipple clamps.
Sign me up.
You don't need to wait for hell to get that.
Sounds like a bad episode of the Muppet Show
I think the Caf has its own version of that.
true. ...and the way to avoid not being thrown into the great void....is to forgive...ceaselessly...starting with oneself.
How do you know?
The problem you have with your whole take on this is that you put a limit on the power of god. The condition is that if god is all powerful then why is there evil. You are saying that there has to be evil and that limits the power of god. There can be no reason for god’s invention of evil if he is all powerful he could just as well do whatever you think he needs to do without it. Being all powerful is the condition and a huge part of your problem in answering this logic.