Do you really believe what you're writing here or are you just dicking us around?
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Do you really believe what you're writing here or are you just dicking us around?
It's not sensible in the slightest to disregard something you consider the word of god.
I'd hope I'm not 'dicking' anyone around... As I've said before, I don't believe in God. I also don't believe the logic of the argument against Christianity, that I was responding to, holds up.
Could've fooled me, because you're using exactly the same warped logic and disingenuous stupidity as religious people to defend him.
Either the Bible is the word of god of it is not. Either it's a magic, special book or it's not. You can't have it both ways. And seeing as the Bible is self-contradictory in innumerable ways, and so much of the morality it preaches doesn't hold up to 21th century standards (to put it mildly), and it doesn't contain a single passage that could not have been written by a first century person, I think it should be fairly obvious to any thinking person what the answer is.
Why not? If you find parts of the word of God conflicting with each other, and you believe firmly in his existence, then surely it is the case you would seek to work out which is the part that is relevant to you. The way you would do that is through thought and prayer. Many people, as a result, come to the conclusion that they should not follow the passages specific to homosexuality.
I don't think I've argued that the bible is anything but the word of God. As for it being obvious to any thinking person... it isn't. There are plenty of intellectually minded Christians in the world. Which is the reason I'm debating this. I'm curious as to what the case for all of them being wrong is. I am therefore attempting to argue against it, when I don't find it convincing.
Yes it is. The people who can bring themselves to believe in this self-evidently moronic nonsense aren't thinking, even if they're intellectual giants in other fields. Unfortunately our brains are susceptible to this kind of partitioned thinking, but that doesn't mean it's not stupid.
They are believing in something without evidence. That's the bottom line, and that is stupid.
I think pretty much all of us are irrational and we all have faith, personally (I don't mean merely the religious kind). It takes evidence to convince us otherwise of our faith. Quite a lot, in some cases (I quite liked the Glaston example).
What are you talking about?
I'm suggesting there is nothing unique to religion about belief without evidence.
And?
No, we don't all believe without evidence (some of us make an effort not to, in any case).
That therefore your suggestion that any thinking person would dismiss belief without intelligence, implies are no thinking people.
Again, what are you talking about? Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Dottie's a waste of bandwidth.
Not at all. I'm not sure why you're struggling to get what I'm saying, to be honest. I'll try again... I believe all people believe things without evidence. So, I don't see how you can say no thinking person does so.
Is that my new nickname? I rather like it.
To be fair, plenty of intellectual people believe in god, and consider it a more likely solution to the problem of our existence than other theories. They feel that there is evidence, even if to us there seems to be none. Somehow they manage to convince themselves they are using logic, and that is the real problem.
There can be no logic whatsoever to believing in religion, though. I don't know how certain intellectuals make that particular leap.
There's a difference between blind faith and trust. The faith that religious people have in God is based on no evidence.
How would you define trust?
This is just obscurantism. Complete waste of time.
Tell that to the ten-year old boy being sodomized by his stepfather.
As emotionally powerful an example as this is, and as many others you could suggest would be, it isn't an argument against the theory of which I was speaking.
Trust is based on reasonable expectations. If I say 'I trust that the sun will rise tomorrow', I have the knowledge of knowing that every single time the sun has set it has risen the next day, plus a basic understanding of the theory behind how the orbit of sun works.
It's not same as blind faith. If I were to roll a regular die and say 'I have faith that the number 5 will appear', we know that the odds are equally as likely that 1,2,3,4 or 6 will show, giving me no reason to think that it's any more likely 5 will appear. It's wishful thinking.
Those are probably not the best examples but hopefully you get the point.
I don't understand the logic of a god that loves me so much he'd give me cancer in a heartbeat. The fact he loves AND hates to see us kill each other, rape each other etc, which apparently was made by him and he actively encourages it, makes me believe he's some kind of delusional sadist! How can such a deity exist? I just can't believe that an all loving all knowing God would take away 3 family members of mine in the space of 5 years.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
I suspect most people do believe things similar to "I will roll a 5". Not that specific example, because we're well taught in the evidence against it. I think with things we're less aware of the chances of, we let optimism and pessimism play a role.
That's rough going, man! Sorry to hear
That's rough going, man! Sorry to hear
All uncles and they were the only link between my family and their mums. First one to die was 16, the last was in his 20s.
That's a heart-breakingly young age for people to go. I dread to think how difficult that must be.
More so at the time. I'm kinda more distant about them all now, due to some family secret being revealed about my dad and granddad.
Things have a tendency to come out, after people pass away, I guess. That's often quite a tricky thing, itself.
No nothing to do with them, its just put things in a weird position.
In my reasoning it is one of two possibilities 1) god does not exist, or 2) god does exist and he/she/it is an absolute detestable being that gets off on human death and suffering.
I'll go with the first possibility.
Ahh, I see. I was wondering if it was a bit like when one of Grandmothers passed. We had to leave certain parts of the eulogy very vague, as there were people there that wouldn't have been aware of the details and needn't be. I suspect some of them may have asked questions after the funeral.
I don't see justification for excluding the possibility that the horrors that we see in the world are, in a way we could not possibly understand, part of a divine plan that is best for us.
Most people who knew all the details about it are dead.
Yeah I see where you're coming from; kind of like how the Third Reich was all part of a divine plan that might of been for the best for us, just in ways only the Nazis could understand? The allied forces were just ignorant so they put a stop to it? Likewise the concept of God's cruelty is something we cannot possibly understand so we stop believing in him because it makes no sense whatsoever that a being supposedly acting in our own interests can commit such terrible atrocities of indescribable, cold hearted barbarism.
Christians don't love God, they fear him. They've been taught from an early age that to do anything but 'love' god, in his Christian interpretation, amounts to eternal torture. Or at the very least it amounts to failure to enter heaven. The same applies to Muslims also. The message is essentially 'love me or I'll burn you'. What a revolting concept.
That's nonsense and nothing more than a religious apologetic response. If there is a divine plan of a god then what's the point in medicine, science, etc., as it only goes against some divine plan. Furthermore, why should the religious pray (and they most often pray for selfish reasons) as there is already a divine plan in place (see George Carlin below). That's pure arrogance on behalf of humans.
http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm
I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.
But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to feck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?
Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and feck up Your Plan?
And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the feck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.
We're still waiting for Mijhailovic to guide us to these clever chaps that can improve on Epicurus and Hume and solve the problem of evil.
Somewhat reminiscent of the idea that if you violate secular laws you will be punished by imprisonment.