Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

kiristao said:
Look again. There is a split second before the ball lands on the goal kick line where you see it move.
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Im not sure what you’re trying to say?

When DDG took the goal kick, irrespective of where the ball went (short or long). Kane was in the penalty area and ended up winning the ball back. The goal shouldn’t have stood, in amazed nothing is being made of it.
 
sullydnl said:
Don't think so.

As far as I'm aware : the ref saw the incident and decided Lamela would get a yellow and Martial a red. He then explains his interpretation of what happened to VAR. VAR then looked at the incident and decided the ref hadn't made a mistake in those two separate decisions.

If VAR thought the ref had made a mistake with the Lamela yellow then they could have got him to review it, as on-pitch yellows can be upgraded. They just didn't think it was bad enough to warrant an upgrade from yellow to red.

It's important to remember they look at it as two separate decisions rather than one incident. So they ignore what Lamela did when looking at what Martial did, and vice versa.
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I wasn't aware that Lamela was already given a yellow. I thought he got one after VAR review.
 
The idea that the onfield decision carries so much weight is fecking ridiculous. If onfield decisions were sacrosanct, VAR wouldn't exist in the first place.
 


I find Johnson's weekly twitter threads the handiest way of figuring out why whatever decisions were made.
 
No case for simulation for Lamela?

He gets slapped, holds his face for three seconds, then slowly goes to ground and goes back to holding his face.

Do the legs give way every time someone’s face is touched? I’ve smacked my head against the kitchen cupboards a lot of times, and never have my legs given way after a short delay.

Does he mean that as long as he’s complaining towards the right part of the body then simulation cannot occur? So if someone grazes my shoulder lightly I’m entitled to fall over, spin around fourteen times and scream in agony and it wouldn’t be simulation? Get to feck.

But I agree with the point in general, that VAR has a second-guessing problem. They should just indicate that it’s not 100% in the direction the ref gave, and he should go have a look at it. We’ve seen how quick pitch side decisions have been when they’ve been used, so they should take away all the VAR analysis and just have the VAR be a “you should look at that” adjunct.

Also, we need to get a challenge system. Teams get challenges when feeling aggrieved which forces the ref to the monitor. If ref changes his decision, then challenge remains. That’ll protect teams against VAR randomly choosing not to intervene, for example Luiz’s pull and Romeu’s tackle on Greenwood last season.
 
sullydnl said:


I find Johnson's weekly twitter threads the handiest way of figuring out why whatever decisions were made.
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He’s chatting shite though. You can’t fend somebody off when the ball isn’t in play and it isn’t normal to do so with an elbow in the throat.
 
acnumber9 said:
He’s chatting shite though. You can’t fend somebody off when the ball isn’t in play and it isn’t normal to do so with an elbow in the throat.
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I'd disagree with that interpretation of the incident too. Nonetheless, I'd be quite sure that interpretation is indeed why the ref gave Lamela a yellow rather than a red. Rightly or wrongly, that was the thought process.

And I'd also be quite sure that his point about the high bar for overturns is well made. The onfield decision by the referee still carries a lot of weight. Once Lamela was given a yellow card then it was always going to take a lot for VAR to upgrade it. Whereas I didn't initially realise he had been given that yellow and was bemused as to why VAR hadn't intervened.
 
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That interpretation is nothing more than post event back covering. Everybody knows the decision was incorrect, despite whatever justification is now somehow retrospectively applied without context.
 
Regarding the Lamela, Martial incident

Pretty simply they need to change the VAR protocol because when it's allowed to be used is slightly to narrow. It should include unsporting behaviour in what is re viewable. Arguably there should also be a red card offence added to the laws of the game for serious unsporting behaviour, e.g play acting with the intent of getting an opposing player dismissed. Rivaldo incident in 2002 and this one spring to mind as examples of when it would be used.

Lamela cheated to get Martial sent off by acting like he was shot, who wants to watch a game that allows and actually rewards that?

Totally ludicrous situation.
 
Mb194dc said:
Regarding the Lamela, Martial incident

Pretty simply they need to change the VAR protocol because when it's allowed to be used is slightly to narrow. It should include unsporting behaviour in what is re viewable. Arguably there should also be a red card offence added to the laws of the game for serious unsporting behaviour, e.g play acting with the intent of getting an opposing player dismissed. Rivaldo incident in 2002 and this one spring to mind as examples of when it would be used.

Lamela cheated to get Martial sent off by acting like he was shot, who wants to watch a game that allows and actually rewards that?

Totally ludicrous situation.
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I'd think it should be as simple as ensuring the referee goes to the pitch side camera for any off the ball violent conduct and watches the incident in full.
 
HackeyC said:
I'd think it should be as simple as ensuring the referee goes to the pitch side camera for any off the ball violent conduct and watches the incident in full.
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It's actually crazy that the ref isn't just doing that for a situation like that. He has at no point seen what even happened.
 
sebsheep said:
It's actually crazy that the ref isn't just doing that for a situation like that. He has at no point seen what even happened.
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I hate to cite rugby as they aren't perfect, but normally the whole incident is re-run on screen for the ref and they take a balanced view.
 
acnumber9 said:
He’s chatting shite though. You can’t fend somebody off when the ball isn’t in play and it isn’t normal to do so with an elbow in the throat.
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It's also nonsense, because the rules state:

"In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible."

Lamela clearly makes contact with Martial under his chin, and last time I checked, that's part of your head.... he wasn't challenging for the ball and if you're judging that the force Martial used was worthy of a red card, then so is Lamela.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
It's also nonsense, because the rules state:

"In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible."

Lamela clearly makes contact with Martial under his chin, and last time I checked, that's part of your head.... he wasn't challenging for the ball and if you're judging that the force Martial used was worthy of a red card, then so is Lamela.
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Not to mention that I don’t think the force used could get any more negligible than Martial’s slap.
 
Cpt Negative said:
Im not sure what you’re trying to say?

When DDG took the goal kick, irrespective of where the ball went (short or long). Kane was in the penalty area and ended up winning the ball back. The goal shouldn’t have stood, in amazed nothing is being made of it.
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Can anyone else confirm this happened? Or do you have an image/video to share? If so, that’s yet more evidence of what a crock of shit this whole VAR experience has been. So many downsides and every weekend continues to churn out awful decisions, only without the previous (valid) excuse that referees are human and real time refereeing will always be fallible.
 
Mb194dc said:
Regarding the Lamela, Martial incident

Pretty simply they need to change the VAR protocol because when it's allowed to be used is slightly to narrow. It should include unsporting behaviour in what is re viewable. Arguably there should also be a red card offence added to the laws of the game for serious unsporting behaviour, e.g play acting with the intent of getting an opposing player dismissed. Rivaldo incident in 2002 and this one spring to mind as examples of when it would be used.

Lamela cheated to get Martial sent off by acting like he was shot, who wants to watch a game that allows and actually rewards that?

Totally ludicrous situation.
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This is becoming a big problem, players cheating to con the ref. Personally, If i was a ref and someone tried to fool me and there is video evidence, it should be punishable?

Martial was no innocent party there either by a long shot however, Lamela initiated contact and then went down like hes been shot and Martial gets the severe punishment and Lamela gets away with nothing.

This is something siblings do to each other to get one in trouble from parents, are the FA really condoning this?

3 things I think could have happened IMO.

Martial and Lamela both sent off
Marital sent off and the ref review it at half time, acknowledges mistake and sends him off start of next half.
Martial gets yellow and Lamela sent of for trying to cheat.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can anyone else confirm this happened? Or do you have an image/video to share? If so, that’s yet more evidence of what a crock of shit this whole VAR experience has been. So many downsides and every weekend continues to churn out awful decisions, only without the previous (valid) excuse that referees are human and real time refereeing will always be fallible.
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Highlights from Youtube

Pause the video at 1:42 and look where Kane is when the goal kick is taken, then look who wins the ball back
 
Interestingly enough, Sky Sports have put the audio on Youtube of the players once Martial got sent off. Lamela got booked and the ref said it wasn't violent conduct (because it was checked)
 
What was that offside decision? Mane’s arm was his furthest but forward so that shouldn’t be offside cos you can’t score with your arm?
 
Haven't seen an image of the Mane offside yet but it's worth bearing in mind that the change in the handball rule has change where offsides are judged from too.

For example, note where they judged the offside from for the Pickford tackle incident:

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sparx99 said:
What was that offside decision? Mane’s arm was his furthest but forward so that shouldn’t be offside cos you can’t score with your arm?
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I believe that armpit is what matters(which makes more sense than the other parts of the arm).

EDIT: Just read that it's the elbow that matters, not the armpit :lol:
 
Is there any mathematical approach behind these offside decisions? Like a programm that analyzes the picture?

I`m asking because the way it looks to me is that the var guys just paint style put two lines random in the picture and that`s that.
 
OleBoiii said:
I believe that armpit is what matters(which makes more sense than the other parts of the arm).
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I believe that's changed as the part of the arm that constitutes handball has also changed:

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Judging from the armpit made sense when the green section counted as handball. Now that it doesn't I wouldn't be surprised if they're judging from the badge instead.
 
sparx99 said:
What was that offside decision? Mane’s arm was his furthest but forward so that shouldn’t be offside cos you can’t score with your arm?
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A part of a shoulder counts as you can score with it, but genuinely there was a great rule before (in questionable decisions give advantage to the attacking side), when you have to take out the microscope, this should be applied. Can't complain about today though, it certainly made my day better :lol:
 
OleBoiii said:
I believe that armpit is what matters(which makes more sense than the other parts of the arm).
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Wow, I am in total support of this new rule!!! After all, a truck load of goals are scored with players’ armpits every season!

(not taking the piss out of you, but the rule)
 
Kasper said:
Is there any mathematical approach behind these offside decisions? Like a programm that analyzes the picture?

I`m asking because the way it looks to me is that the var guys just paint style put two lines random in the picture and that`s that.
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This is basically what happens... Apparently they have incredible high red images to work from... But ultimately it is just guess work.
 
The rule needs to changed from the legs of defender and attacker. Seems ridiculous to me that a well timed drop of the shoulder rules you offside.
 
Kasper said:
Is there any mathematical approach behind these offside decisions? Like a programm that analyzes the picture?

I`m asking because the way it looks to me is that the var guys just paint style put two lines random in the picture and that`s that.
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There is 3d reconstruction , however I dont think the cameras have sufficient frame rate and resolution to make decisions with millimeter accuracy .
 
Hilarious to see the scousers denied three points plus a few decisions go against them but wtf with var judging that offside
 
Liverpool beat Sheffield United last season in the same way with millimeters determining the call. Karma this time. It's not the first time we've seen decisions like this, won't be the last. 1 millimeter offsides means offside.
 
If the offsides call overrides the Pickford challenge then defenders can attack strikers whenever they are penalized for being offsides
 
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