Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

Fluctuation0161 said:
Looked a tap to me. With an open hand.

Maybe I need to see it again...
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Can't play against 13 a ref and Var we are not good enough but the sending off was absolutely a shit show, how many checking red cards did they have with utd yet they allowed lamela several pull backs and then getting infant of the ball to stop free kicks and nothing done
 
There is no point in criticising Lamela for what he's done today because it's clearly what the authorities want the game to be like by the decisions they make.

We hear these platitudes about simulation and diving, but when one player gets elbowed in the throat and doesn't go down, he doesn't get backed by the officials. His opponent gets brushed in the cheek and goes down like a sack of shit, and gets rewarded for it.

It is unprofessional of players not to do what Lamela did today because the league have shown by their actions that this is what they want to see and what they will reward.
 
diarm said:
There is no point in criticising Lamela for what he's done today because it's clearly what the authorities want the game to be like by the decisions they make.

We hear these platitudes about simulation and diving, but when one player gets elbowed in the throat and doesn't go down, he doesn't get backed by the officials. His opponent gets brushed in the cheek and goes down like a sack of shit, and gets rewarded for it.

It is unprofessional of players not to do what Lamela did today because the league have shown by their actions that this is what they want to see and what they will reward.
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Exactly. Nobody's praising Martial for staying up and not acting like a twat, are they? The refs are making their own beds, no wonder playacting is such a big thing when the referees show that they encourage it, even with video assistance.
 
diarm said:
There is no point in criticising Lamela for what he's done today because it's clearly what the authorities want the game to be like by the decisions they make.

We hear these platitudes about simulation and diving, but when one player gets elbowed in the throat and doesn't go down, he doesn't get backed by the officials. His opponent gets brushed in the cheek and goes down like a sack of shit, and gets rewarded for it.

It is unprofessional of players not to do what Lamela did today because the league have shown by their actions that this is what they want to see and what they will reward.
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I tend to agree. More annoyed with the officials than Lamela or Martial.

It sets a precedent.

As a club, of course Martial needs to take responsibility and learn from this. But if this is how football decisions will go in the future, the game is fecked.
 
diarm said:
There is no point in criticising Lamela for what he's done today because it's clearly what the authorities want the game to be like by the decisions they make.

We hear these platitudes about simulation and diving, but when one player gets elbowed in the throat and doesn't go down, he doesn't get backed by the officials. His opponent gets brushed in the cheek and goes down like a sack of shit, and gets rewarded for it.

It is unprofessional of players not to do what Lamela did today because the league have shown by their actions that this is what they want to see and what they will reward.
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I'll agree, doesn't change what is right though. Never a red card for Martial. Lamela should get a yellow for unsportsmanlike conduct. Never enough in it for him to go down, disgraceful conduct.
 
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I truly believe we are too nice when it comes to getting decisions. Today Burke is pulled back by Luiz but continues his run and that’s that, if he throws himself down it’s likely a different story.
 
Today is the perfect example of why the sport will never be big in the US. It makes the game a laughing stock, and any manager worth their salt will see today and tell their players to go down like they've been shot any chance they get.
 
Cpt Negative said:
No mention of spurs players being in the area in the goal kick for the third? Shambles of decisions against us this year
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Did that really happen? Got a video of the incident?

diarm said:
There is no point in criticising Lamela for what he's done today because it's clearly what the authorities want the game to be like by the decisions they make.

We hear these platitudes about simulation and diving, but when one player gets elbowed in the throat and doesn't go down, he doesn't get backed by the officials. His opponent gets brushed in the cheek and goes down like a sack of shit, and gets rewarded for it.

It is unprofessional of players not to do what Lamela did today because the league have shown by their actions that this is what they want to see and what they will reward.
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Very good post. Sadly, you'll see a United player given red for 'play acting' twice or kicking the ball away or something like that way before you'll see they admit to what you're saying is true.

It's the inconsistencies. I am quite sure if Pogba elbowed Kane out of nowhere and Kane just stood there before giving him a bit back..and Pogba went to ground, Pogba would get the red card and Kane would get a yellow and be applauded for the tough english no-nonsense approach in the media. It's not because Kane is a media darling, it's just deep rooted biases that runs through every referee in the league, from the pressure above. Anthony Taylor is no outlier.

I see player standing in front of free kicks so it's not to be taken quickly. Is this even allowed? Wouldn't Maguire be booked if he did this on their goal? Didn't Matic get booked for this last season? I feel like Lingard has been booked for it a bunch too. Moura and Lamela did this every time they fouled us today and ref did nothing. Just didn't bother. Another thing is kicking the ball away or throw it in the air, it's not punished anymore unless of course a ref decides hey technically it's the rules and I really want the game to go this way right now.
 
Blades1889 said:
I truly believe we are too nice when it comes to getting decisions. Today Burke is pulled back by Luiz but continues his run and that’s that, if he throws himself down it’s likely a different story.
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Agree 100%
That was yellow minimum arguably red.
But because Burke is honest it’s nothing
Infuriating. Just encourages cheating, prime suspect from today = rat faced cnut #2 lamela
 
MikeKing said:
Did that really happen? Got a video of the incident?


Very good post. Sadly, you'll see a United player given red for 'play acting' twice or kicking the ball away or something like that way before you'll see they admit to what you're saying is true.

It's the inconsistencies. I am quite sure if Pogba elbowed Kane out of nowhere and Kane just stood there before giving him a bit back..and Pogba went to ground, Pogba would get the red card and Kane would get a yellow and be applauded for the tough english no-nonsense approach in the media. It's not because Kane is a media darling, it's just deep rooted biases that runs through every referee in the league, from the pressure above. Anthony Taylor is no outlier.

I see player standing in front of free kicks so it's not to be taken quickly. Is this even allowed? Wouldn't Maguire be booked if he did this on their goal? Didn't Matic get booked for this last season? I feel like Lingard has been booked for it a bunch too. Moura and Lamela did this every time they fouled us today and ref did nothing. Just didn't bother. Another thing is kicking the ball away or throw it in the air, it's not punished anymore unless of course a ref decides hey technically it's the rules and I really want the game to go this way right now.
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MikeKing said:
Did that really happen? Got a video of the incident?


Very good post. Sadly, you'll see a United player given red for 'play acting' twice or kicking the ball away or something like that way before you'll see they admit to what you're saying is true.

It's the inconsistencies. I am quite sure if Pogba elbowed Kane out of nowhere and Kane just stood there before giving him a bit back..and Pogba went to ground, Pogba would get the red card and Kane would get a yellow and be applauded for the tough english no-nonsense approach in the media. It's not because Kane is a media darling, it's just deep rooted biases that runs through every referee in the league, from the pressure above. Anthony Taylor is no outlier.

I see player standing in front of free kicks so it's not to be taken quickly. Is this even allowed? Wouldn't Maguire be booked if he did this on their goal? Didn't Matic get booked for this last season? I feel like Lingard has been booked for it a bunch too. Moura and Lamela did this every time they fouled us today and ref did nothing. Just didn't bother. Another thing is kicking the ball away or throw it in the air, it's not punished anymore unless of course a ref decides hey technically it's the rules and I really want the game to go this way right now.
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MikeKing said:
Did that really happen? Got a video of the incident?


Very good post. Sadly, you'll see a United player given red for 'play acting' twice or kicking the ball away or something like that way before you'll see they admit to what you're saying is true.

It's the inconsistencies. I am quite sure if Pogba elbowed Kane out of nowhere and Kane just stood there before giving him a bit back..and Pogba went to ground, Pogba would get the red card and Kane would get a yellow and be applauded for the tough english no-nonsense approach in the media. It's not because Kane is a media darling, it's just deep rooted biases that runs through every referee in the league, from the pressure above. Anthony Taylor is no outlier.

I see player standing in front of free kicks so it's not to be taken quickly. Is this even allowed? Wouldn't Maguire be booked if he did this on their goal? Didn't Matic get booked for this last season? I feel like Lingard has been booked for it a bunch too. Moura and Lamela did this every time they fouled us today and ref did nothing. Just didn't bother. Another thing is kicking the ball away or throw it in the air, it's not punished anymore unless of course a ref decides hey technically it's the rules and I really want the game to go this way right now.
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I’m not sure how to post a picture, but I just saw it again on YouTube and Kane is just off the penalty spot when the kick is taken, then proceeds to win the ball.
We were dreadful, but let’s not lose site of how big those incorrect decisions, within 1 minute of each other had on the game
 
If there ever was a reason for Lamela to be retrospectively banned, then this is it since the blind bastards missed it during the game and also on VAR. What a disgraceful player who will likely fade into obscurity and win nothing of relevance in his career.

Shane88 said:
Called it last week that Spurs were gonna get a big decision to make up for last week.
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Jose's persistent moaning and chipping away at the officials close to the line without getting punished finally pays off.
 
Irrational. said:
If there ever was a reason for Lamela to be retrospectively banned, then this is it since the blind bastards missed it during the game and also on VAR. What a disgraceful player who will likely fade into obscurity and win nothing of relevance in his career.



Jose's persistent moaning and chipping away at the officials close to the line without getting punished finally pays off.
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I'd prefer Solskjaer to be at that instead of playing Angry Birds on his tablet.
 
Cpt Negative said:
I’m not sure how to post a picture, but I just saw it again on YouTube and Kane is just off the penalty spot when the kick is taken, then proceeds to win the ball.
We were dreadful, but let’s not lose site of how big those incorrect decisions, within 1 minute of each other had on the game
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I fully agree on that. Performance was bad but there is no reason to pretend this result is not a huge anomaly and not necessarily too indicative of our season. We wont get those decisions back, but we definitely wont be as unlucky as we were with such huge dramatic game changing involvement from refs every game. Game was slow and weird as feck with a lot of space everywhere on the pitch before Martial was sent off, and it did look like we were about to capitalise on it. We completely lost the plot after the decisions went against us.
 
Cpt Negative said:
I’m not sure how to post a picture, but I just saw it again on YouTube and Kane is just off the penalty spot when the kick is taken, then proceeds to win the ball.
We were dreadful, but let’s not lose site of how big those incorrect decisions, within 1 minute of each other had on the game
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It was the fourth, but you're correct that Kane was inside the box, which is clearly against the rules. Wonder why the players did not react?

Edit: Did study the rules.

Law 16 requires all opponents to be outside the penalty area until the goal kick is taken and if an opponent remains inside or enters the penalty area before the kick is taken and plays, challenges or touches the ball, the goal kick is retaken.

However, Law 16 also applies the ‘quick’ free kick principles outlined in Law 13 – Free Kicks, 3. Offences and sanctions that if any opponents are in the penalty areas because they did not have time to leave, the referee allows play to continue.
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The ball was moving when the replay I watched started, so possibly Kane "did not have time to leave". Another feck up, then.
 
ReddBalls said:
It was the fourth, but you're correct that Kane was inside the box, which is clearly against the rules. Wonder why the players did not react?

Edit: Did study the rules.



The ball was moving when the replay I watched started, so possibly Kane "did not have time to leave". Another feck up, then.
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Isn’t there some new rule about quick goal kicks?
Edit: just seen your edit.
 
Cpt Negative said:
it was the third. son scored the 4th at the near post
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Found a full match replay. It was a quickly taken free kick, not a goal kick. Law 16 does not apply. Edit: Too fast again. It was a goal kick, but the producer was showing the replay of the red card incident while the kick was taken.
 
The Purley King said:
Agree 100%
That was yellow minimum arguably red.
But because Burke is honest it’s nothing
Infuriating. Just encourages cheating, prime suspect from today = rat faced cnut #2 lamela
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Definitely, if there’s contact make the most of it from now on. That’s what it’s come to judging by these ridiculous decisions recently.
 
Can someone explain my understanding is correct or not?

Referee gives Martial a red card and then proceeds to call up the VAR referee and asks him a specific question, which is only about what Martial did. And the VAR referee has no business telling him anything about Lamela elbowing Martial or play acting later and he answers only a specific question.

Is that how this thing works?

And I couldn't understand how Bailly got away after stamping Kane, which looked pretty deliberate to me, I remember VAR looked into it too. Right?
 
Is there any chance at all that Martial will not get suspended for three games? I mean, even if the red card can be defended, 3.66 games suspension is waaaaay over the top.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Can someone explain my understanding is correct or not?

Referee gives Martial a red card and then proceeds to call up the VAR referee and asks him a specific question, which is only about what Martial did. And the VAR referee has no business telling him anything about Lamela elbowing Martial or play acting later and he answers only a specific question.

Is that how this thing works?

And I couldn't understand how Bailly got away after stamping Kane, which looked pretty deliberate to me, I remember VAR looked into it too. Right?
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every decision after the red card was irrelevant specially when they were 6-1. The referees tried to avoid focus on them after their stupid decision against martial. Cluttenburg said I wouldnt even given martial a card, I would have warned both Martial and Lamela and stop acting like children and continued the game..
 
Apparently Lamela did actually get a yellow card for the incident, which I hadn't realised at the time. Sky just didn't put the graphic up until later.
 
Blades1889 said:
I truly believe we are too nice when it comes to getting decisions. Today Burke is pulled back by Luiz but continues his run and that’s that, if he throws himself down it’s likely a different story.
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I didn't watch much of that game, but I did see a challenge in the box by Ceballos I think, where if the forward had thrown himself to ground it could easily have been a penalty
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Can someone explain my understanding is correct or not?

Referee gives Martial a red card and then proceeds to call up the VAR referee and asks him a specific question, which is only about what Martial did. And the VAR referee has no business telling him anything about Lamela elbowing Martial or play acting later and he answers only a specific question.

Is that how this thing works?

And I couldn't understand how Bailly got away after stamping Kane, which looked pretty deliberate to me, I remember VAR looked into it too. Right?
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Don't think so.

As far as I'm aware : the ref saw the incident and decided Lamela would get a yellow and Martial a red. He then explains his interpretation of what happened to VAR. VAR then looked at the incident and decided the ref hadn't made a mistake in those two separate decisions.

If VAR thought the ref had made a mistake with the Lamela yellow then they could have got him to review it, as on-pitch yellows can be upgraded. They just didn't think it was bad enough to warrant an upgrade from yellow to red.

It's important to remember they look at it as two separate decisions rather than one incident. So they ignore what Lamela did when looking at what Martial did, and vice versa.
 
sullydnl said:
Don't think so.

As far as I'm aware : the ref saw the incident and decided Lamela would get a yellow and Martial a red. He then explains his interpretation of what happened to VAR. VAR then looked at the incident and decided the ref hadn't made a mistake in those two separate decisions.

If VAR thought the ref had made a mistake with the Lamela yellow then they could have got him to review it, as on-pitch yellows can be upgraded. They just didn't think it was bad enough to warrant an upgrade from yellow to red.

It's important to remember they look at it as two separate decisions rather than one incident. So they ignore what Lamela did when looking at what Martial did, and vice versa.
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so basically too separate identical incidents have two different outcomes? And they wonder why they don’t get any respect.
 
sullydnl said:
Don't think so.

As far as I'm aware : the ref saw the incident and decided Lamela would get a yellow and Martial a red. He then explains his interpretation of what happened to VAR. VAR then looked at the incident and decided the ref hadn't made a mistake in those two separate decisions.

If VAR thought the ref had made a mistake with the Lamela yellow then they could have got him to review it, as on-pitch yellows can be upgraded. They just didn't think it was bad enough to warrant an upgrade from yellow to red.

It's important to remember they look at it as two separate decisions rather than one incident. So they ignore what Lamela did when looking at what Martial did, and vice versa.
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That’s ridiculous because it’s the first incident that leads to the second incident. Both are identical almost. Pathetic.
 
Listar said:
so basically too separate identical incidents have two different outcomes? And they wonder why they don’t get any respect.
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From their POV they're not quite identical, I think. Lamela's could have been interpreted as an overly aggressive attempt to fend off his opponent as they line up for a set piece. Whereas Martial's could only be interpreted as deliberate "slap".

Martial's is pretty definitely a red. So the question is whether what Lamela did should be a red card in its own right whenever someone does that, ignoring what came after. Or whether a yellow is a reasonable enough outcome for it not to be upgraded via VAR. But Martial getting a red for retaliating has no bearing on that decision.
 
Cpt Negative said:
No mention of spurs players being in the area in the goal kick for the third? Shambles of decisions against us this year
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Don't think that's accurate. I think DDG first passes it to Maguire who passes it back because if you watch the replay closely you will see the ball is moving when DDG passes it to Bailly.
The replays all show it from the point where DDG passes it to Bailly so it feels like that's the start of the goalkick
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Looked a tap to me. With an open hand.

Maybe I need to see it again...
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It is a tap but then again Drogba was sent of in the Champions League final for a similar tap on Vidic so I can understand the red. What I can't understand is how Lamela intentionally almost elbowing Martial in the neck/chin when the ball is not even in play is a yellow.
 
Jeppers7 said:
That’s ridiculous because it’s the first incident that leads to the second incident. Both are identical almost. Pathetic.
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The elbow is WORSE. He f**** elbows the opponent when the ball is not even in play. How the feck can anyone say elbowing is less violent (or even identical) is beyond me!
 
sullydnl said:
I would think the distinction is that Lamela could claim that he was trying to push his opponent away, whereas Martial's was only retaliation.

I can understand Martial's being viewed in a worse light even with the contact being as light as it was but I don't get Lamela escaping any punishment at all.
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The replay is pretty clear, you can see that it's aimed upwards and that there's two movements, there's no way he's just trying to push his opponent away, Lamela knows exactly what he's doing. Lamela was given a yellow card. It's piss poor refereeing, just apply some fecking common sense. Lamela instigates it and he barely gets as much back as he gives, give the pair of them a yellow card and be done with it
 
sullydnl said:
Don't think so.

As far as I'm aware : the ref saw the incident and decided Lamela would get a yellow and Martial a red. He then explains his interpretation of what happened to VAR. VAR then looked at the incident and decided the ref hadn't made a mistake in those two separate decisions.

If VAR thought the ref had made a mistake with the Lamela yellow then they could have got him to review it, as on-pitch yellows can be upgraded. They just didn't think it was bad enough to warrant an upgrade from yellow to red.

It's important to remember they look at it as two separate decisions rather than one incident. So they ignore what Lamela did when looking at what Martial did, and vice versa.
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Another example of the “refereeing by algorithm “ bullshit we have to put up with in the post-VAR world. Any referee with an iota of common sense (and a process which allows him to use common sense/his experience as a referee) looking at that footage would consider the incident in it’s entirety before deciding who should be punished and how.
 
UncleBob said:
The replay is pretty clear, you can see that it's aimed upwards and that there's two movements, there's no way he's just trying to push his opponent away, Lamela knows exactly what he's doing. Lamela was given a yellow card. It's piss poor refereeing, just apply some fecking common sense. Lamela instigates it and he barely gets as much back as he gives, give the pair of them a yellow card and be done with it
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Put it this way: if Martial dropped to the ground like a clown at that point and the ref had given a red, I don't think it would have been overturned. The ref's initial decision is still very leading.
 
kiristao said:
Don't think that's accurate. I think DDG first passes it to Maguire who passes it back because if you watch the replay closely you will see the ball is moving when DDG passes it to Bailly.
The replays all show it from the point where DDG passes it to Bailly so it feels like that's the start of the goalkick
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that is the start of the goal kick, but no attacking player should be in the box when we take the goal kick. It should have been retaken (although there’s a big element of why we’d take a quick goal kick when Kane is in that position)
 
Cpt Negative said:
that is the start of the goal kick, but no attacking player should be in the box when we take the goal kick. It should have been retaken (although there’s a big element of why we’d take a quick goal kick when Kane is in that position)
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Look again. There is a split second before the ball lands on the goal kick line where you see it move.
 
snk123 said:
The elbow is WORSE. He f**** elbows the opponent when the ball is not even in play. How the feck can anyone say elbowing is less violent (or even identical) is beyond me!
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I don’t disagree
 
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