Redcafe's All-Time Top 30. Box-to-box and defensive midfielders | Finally done!

[Fortitude]

The thing is, you won't be able to compile a good list of 20 DMs and 20 B2B midfielders without many overlaps and questionable inclusions/exclusions. There's going to be about 10 duplicates in both lists and it just doesn't make sense to create 2 different lists when they're going to overlap by this much. If you'll compile 2 comprehensive lists that I won't have too many objections about @Fortitude...

Or you can set a strict ruling, like we did with those categories, that certain players go to this category and certain players go to another. Which will cause even more issues on where to put Rijkaard, Keane, Voronin, Pirri etc.

There's a number of ways to separate categories though, and even make players ineligible from one to the other. Besides which, I don't think a player has to fit a sole category if he is skilled and replete in the body of work and performances in both. Let at it and see how good that player is, in that role, compared to the specialists, I would say. How does Neeskens (one of my favourite players of all-time) fair against a pure DM, for example? Has he even got the amount of games playing the role to contest it?

I think another thing to add is that, generally, DM's facilitate others, whereas CM's do far too much to say they're there to get the best out of others, hence, when they are great, they are comic book hero level players.

For me, Keane only became a DM when his hip went and he had no choice but to sit. He was great in the role the little played it and even schooled Gerrard from there, but I'm not sure I'd categorise him in any DM list whereas he ticks all the boxes to rank comfortably top 10, and arguably top 5 at CM.

If this is something to delve into, I'm sure a cohesive and logical set of parameters can be written up, though.

Cheers, harms.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I would trust Stiles to do a better job against Barca in 2009 and 2011 than a Carrick as he would be better able to keep tabs on an Iniesta or Messi

As much as I love Stiles, am not sure about this. Defending against a dribbler who's good on the ball is different from defending against a fluid passing team. Eusebio, Maradona, Zico are all dribblers who need ball on their feet to work their magic. Stiles/Gentile are brilliant at sticking close and denying them space. That Barca team was a completely different dynamic to those Stiles/Gentile faced. They'd pass the ball off to boredom and you probably need a more cerebral and less physical player to handle that. Carrick/Alonso etc fit that bill completely who are more into cutting off lanes rather than tackling.

If we were playing a defensive game and inviting pressure then Stiles is a good fit. If the plan was to engage them in midfield, then I'd prefer Carrick/Alonso types. But one thing, his recovery and recycling skills are grossly underrated. As described, a "dog of war" precursor to Keane is exactly what he is.




Also I keep seeing this formation, but can't find much on him playing a CB role.

Nevertheless, Manchester United manager Matt Busby saw something in the tenacious youngster. Stiles was given his debut as a full back in October 1960 against Bolton Wanderers.

 

[Joga Bonito]

If anything Crerand was underrated from that United side, lovely player. Stiles is and will always be a divisive player as are most players of his ilk - (Makelele, Monti etc). Apart from Desailly, M.Silva and a few others midfield anchors, most of 'em are rated rather subjectively.

 

[Jim Beam]

That is just a wrong perception in the draft community. Fairly decent involvement in the build up including a very nice pre assist for the winning goal in a world cup final no less.

In pure defensive terms, a miles better DM than Carrick.

Will not go around the bush in this one. That is one of the worst compilations ever made by a midfielder. I feel sorry for everyone who put their effort in that video.
I can only guess people didn't watch it.. He did make that pre-assist in the last play, but everything else, feckin sake he has troubles with the thing they are playing with. The ball.

 

[Jim Beam]

Carrick played as a CB at Upton Park. I saw him live. There wasn't a need for a fancy video or all the fanfare. Someone got injured at CB and he just get on with it like nothing happen.

We won 4-0. At Upton with him as a CB like it was his job from the start. See you tomorrow or day after!!

 

[2mufc0]

I remember that period of Carrick playing CB he was decent now again but long term he was a disaster.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Keane would have ben a legit excellent CB though. Have vague memories of him being superb there when he filled in. I have a vague ambition of stockpiling all the best CMs some draft and playing most of them in defence or on the wings or something, mostly to piss everyone else off.

 

[Raees]

Keane would have ben a legit excellent CB though. Have vague memories of him being superb there when he filled in. I have a vague ambition of stockpiling all the best CMs some draft and playing most of them in defence or on the wings or something, mostly to piss everyone else off.

I remember reading a Fergie book of some kind and he spoke about Keane being at CB and giving rave reviews.

 

[Jim Beam]

I remember that period of Carrick playing CB he was decent now again but long term he was a disaster.

Well, he was exceptional that day.

 

[Synco]

I remember reading a Fergie book of some kind and he spoke about Keane being at CB and giving rave reviews.

I remember reading the same about Robson (hypothetically) being played there, so there's a CB pair for @Pat_Mustard.

Forgotten which coach it was, though.

 

[harms]

Keane would have ben a legit excellent CB though. Have vague memories of him being superb there when he filled in. I have a vague ambition of stockpiling all the best CMs some draft and playing most of them in defence or on the wings or something, mostly to piss everyone else off.

Netto - Robson - Schuster
Davids - Matthäus - Bonhof
Breitner - Keane - Rijkaard - Neeskens
Hoddle​

 

[Synco]

Wimmer would be an excellent speedy winger (actually played there partly) & gung-ho full back.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Schweinsteiger on the left wing and surely we can find a better keeper, this lazy git wouldnt even try to save something

 

[Jim Beam]

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[harms]

Schweinsteiger on the left wing and surely we can find a better keeper, this lazy git wouldnt even try to save something

3 games, 3 clean sheets.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Netto - Robson - Schuster
Davids - Matthäus - Bonhof
Breitner - Keane - Rijkaard - Neeskens
Hoddle​

Lovely! Got to find a place for Pirri in there somewhere though. Maybe move Big Frank back to GK as he'll put a bit of effort in unlike Hoddle, and play Pirri at CB with Keane.

 

[Jim Beam]

Lovely! Got to find a place for Pirri in there somewhere though. Maybe move Big Frank back to GK as he'll put a bit of effort in unlike Hoddle, and play Pirri at CB with Keane.

Goebells at left wing?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Goebells at left wing?

We can give him a game as goalkeeper if you want if you can convince him to stand like this for 90 minutes, and not say anything racist:

 

[Jim Beam]

We can give him a game as goalkeeper if you want if you can convince him to stand like this for 90 minutes, and not say anything racist:

Truth to be told no one would even notice him since he is a goalkeeper.

Although, he might not be happy with it so it is very important which version of Goebells do you play. He did peak in early 40's, but a later version might be more suited.

 

[Isotope]

Netto - Robson - Schuster
Davids - Matthäus - Bonhof
Breitner - Keane - Rijkaard - Neeskens
Hoddle​

Desailly at CB is a must.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Netto - Robson - Schuster
Davids - Matthäus - Bonhof
Breitner - Keane - Rijkaard - Neeskens
Hoddle​

Didn't Voronin play as a CB I'm the 62 WC and also get into the team of the tournament? Hard to drop Keane though.

 

[harms]

Didn't Voronin play as a CB I'm the 62 WC and also get into the team of the tournament? Hard to drop Keane though.

Yeah, same as with some games around 1966. Didn't think much about team and I think the original idea that I responded with had Keane as a CB.

Desailly at CB is a must.

You can argue that Desailly was a CB first and DM second though.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Didn't think much about team and I think the original idea that I responded with had Keane as a CB.

Fair enough. Thinking about it it's strange how Voronin didn't get into the TOtT for 1966 despite being voted as the 4th best player of the tournament in one of the polls held by L'equipe I think.

Edit: Tbf doesn't look that strange now, seeing that it was Beckenbauer, Sir Bobby and Coluna who made it ahead of him.

 

[harms]

Fair enough. Thinking about it it's strange how Voronin didn't get into the TOTM for 1966 despite being voted as the 4th best player of the tournament in one of the polls held by L'equipe I think.

Edit: Tbf doesn't look that strange now, seeing that it was Beckenbauer, Sir Bobby and Coluna who made it ahead of him.

Well, it's still a bit strange, since Coluna wasn't one of those 3 players ahead of him

But yeah. Those all-star teams from older tournaments are a mess, since FIFA only did them in retrospect and when you look closer, you see that some players are mentioned as a part of the TOtT, but aren't in the one that's posted by FIFA — and sometimes you can even find them, as multiple different magazines did their own teams at the time. Case in point — Bruno Conti in 1982, Tomaszewski/Maier in 1974 etc. Sometimes you see mentions that a certain player was voted the best defender/midfielder/forward and don't see him in the official team etc.