Redcafe's All-Time Top 30. Box-to-box and defensive midfielders | Finally done!

[harms]

28. Uli Stielike. 80 points

Young Stielike, capable of playing both as a sweeper and as a defensive midfielder, was seen as the natural successor to no one other than Franz Beckenbauer. He was one of the biggest stars of Borussia Mönchengladbach, the side that went toe-to-toe with Beckenbauer's Bayern in the league, amassing 3 Bundesliga titles, UEFA Cup and the runners up finish in the 1977 European Cup. Stielike had something different in mind about his future though, and in 1977 he had moved to Real Madrid. The success seemed to follow him, wherever he went — in the first 3 seasons at the club he had won La Liga thrice, to which he later added an UEFA Cup & 2 Copa Del Reys. He was adored in Madrid ‚ Don Balón magazine had chosen him as the best foreign player in the league 4 times in a row. His success with the national team was less impressive though — he had missed a few years during the stupid rule that did not allow players who played abroad to feature for Germany, and he was not alone — Schuster, with whom they won the 1980 Euros, was ostracised as well. To his only international title he can add 2 runners up finished — in the 1976 Euros and in the 1982 World Cup.

27. Paul Gascoigne. 84 points

One of the most gifted English players of all-time, Gascoigne possessed a range of passing and individual skill more reminiscent of a fantasista - the beloved number 10 of Latin football. Chubby and pugnacious, he was at his most thrilling with the ball at his feet: dribbling, swerving, bursting into the box to set up a colleague or shoot himself. But his upbringing meant that he would feel most at home in a deeper position, with the English game being basically defined by 3 numbers — 4-4-2. We contemplated a lot whenever to include him in this category, but ended up going with it, so enjoy it, Gazza! Not sure about the drinking and the partying, but he could've definitely lived without those horrible injuries that stripped us from many years of his best.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Was expecting Ballack to be higher on the list.

 

[harms]

26. Pirri. 88 points

One of the greatest midfielders in La Liga's history, José Martínez Sánchez, widely known as Pirri, had spent pretty much his whole career as a Real Madrid player, winning 10 championships & European Cup and scoring172 goals in his 561 games for the club. Like quite a few midfielders of his ilk he moved deeper later in his career to play as a sweeper, showcasing his intelligence and multifaceted ability. His do-or-die attitude and leadership set him apart even at the young age, when he was a part of Madrid's famous Yé-Yé all-Spanish team (named after The Beatles' song), and later he was made a club's captain. I don't need to go far to illustrate this mentality of his — he played the 1971 final of the European Cup Winner’s Cup with his arm in a sling, and the 1975 Copa del Rey final with fever and a broken jaw.

25. Clarence Seedorf. 90 points

It seems impossible not to like him, although Fernando Hierro may disagree with me on that. Inside the body of a body-builder there was a cultured and sophisticated playmaker that seemed to be around forever. On his way from one of the brightest youngsters of that enchanting 1995 Ajax team to a seasoned midfield general of his AC Milan and Botafogo's days he had managed to win pretty much everything there was to win in club football, including Champions League. 4 times. With 3 different clubs! And most importantly, he’s got ridiculously large thighs. Just look at them!

24. Steven Gerrard. 94 points

And Gerrard slips into the 24th place. Generally, I find him to be a bit overrated by general fans, as he's a player that hit insane heights but also quite often caused problems with his obsession to do everything himself. He's definitely significantly underrated on here though, with only @Gio regularly picking him — which is, I guess, understandable, giving the fact that United fans (me included) are more likely to remember and ridicule all of his mistakes, and his position on this list shows that. At his best he was a force of nature though, who could ran for days, had a fantastic shot on him, and was quite adept at finding his teammates in the box either with a long ball or with an accurate cross, often capable of winning a game all by himself. Yet, even at his best he got this review from Arrigo Sacchi — I won't quote Fergie, as he's quite obviously hugely biased against him:

When I was director of football at Real Madrid I had to evaluate the players coming through the youth ranks. We had some who were very good footballers. They had technique, they had athleticism, they had drive, they were hungry. But they lacked what I call knowing-how-to-play-football. They lacked decision making. They lacked positioning. They didn't have the subtle sensitivity of football: how a player should move within the collective. And for many, I wasn't sure they were going to learn.You see, strength, passion, technique, athleticism, all of these are very important. But they are a means to an end, not an end in itself. They help you reach your goal, which is putting your talent at the service of the team and, by doing this, making both of you and the team greater. In situations like that, I just have to say, Gerrard's a great footballer, but perhaps not a great player.

 

[harms]

23. Igor Netto. 100 points

Netto is one of the few Russian players that are rated quite highly in historical ratings — and you can't say that it's not well-deserved. He was a very unique character — a leader and a proper hard player, you had to be if you were playing as a half back in the 50's. Yet, Netto was someone who was properly obsessed with the idea of beautiful football: short passing, one-twos and dribbling runs, a very Barcelona-esque perception that did not allow a more traditional hit-and-hope approach. And boy, was he a beautiful player! He captained Soviet Union for both of their successful international tournaments — the Olympic gold in 1956, when the football Olympics still meant something, and the first European Championship that took place in 1960.

The story that perfectly encapsulates everything he was about, came a bit later — during the 1962 World Cup, as described by Toke Theilade for thesefootballtimes.co:
"After beating Yugoslavia and drawing against Colombia in the first two games, the Soviet Union were forced to beat Uruguay in the last game of the group stage in order to advance. And things started well for Sbornaya (the national team — harms) as CDKA Moscow striker Aleksei Mamykin secured the lead with a goal in the first half.

Uruguay equalised in the second half, and the pressure was back on the Soviet team to score the winning goal. In the second half the Soviet players and fans got to celebrate as Dinamo Moscow striker Igor Chislenko brought Sbornaya back in front. However, Igor Netto, the Soviet captain, had noted that something was wrong, and after a short chat with Chislenko he approached the referee, who was surrounded by protesting opponents, and told him to disallow the goal, which he did, because the ball went through a hole in the side netting, something the Uruguay players had also noticed.

“We weren’t used to the gimmicks,” he later recalled in his autobiography. And luckily for Netto and the rest of the Soviet Union, they didn’t need any gimmicks to win the game, as legendary Torpedo Moscow striker Valentin Ivanov scored the winning goal in the 89th minute. “We should win without relying on the referee’s mistake. I finally felt a sense of relief,” Netto recalled the game".

22. Sergio Busquets. 107 points

He's not strong, he's not fast and he's not very agile. It's not that hard to beat him one on one. He doesn't really score goals and he rarely makes assists. Yet, somehow, he managed to cement a place in the greatest midfield in football history and prove himself to be invaluable for Barcelona even after the likes of Xavi and Andrés Iniesta left the club. It is an absolute testament to his incredible ability to understand the game and act preventively either to sniff out the danger before it even occurs, or to recycle possession and move the ball forward, channeling the attack into the most prominent direction. He has a talent of being the most important player on the pitch while also staying invisible — as Del Bosque famously said: "You watch the game, you don't see Busquets. You watch Busquets, you see the whole game". It's interesting how highly people would put him in their lists when he finally retires, as anti-recency bias is definitely working against him at the moment. I'd argue that only Frank Rijkaard has a definite claim of being a better defensive midfielder — although, of course, choosing your favourite from the group of runners up would hugely depend on a system that you're inclined to implement.

21. Toninho Cerezo. 138 points

Before the likes of Dunga and Mauro Silva changed that, when you thought about a Brazilian defensive midfielder, you thought of Toninho Cerezo. Incredibly skilful and elegant with the ball, he had an immense passing range and a great shot from a distance, even though most of his career he had spent in the holding role, winning the ball back and more often showcasing his work-rate, stamina and positional awareness. He formed the midfield base with Paulo Roberto Falcão for the 1982 Brazil side — until this day one of the most beloved and remembered teams of all-time, that was built around the midfield quadrumvirate of Cerezo, Falcão, Zico and Socrates. A side that was full of creativity and flair and required that qualities even from the traditionally defensive roles on the pitch. It's also worth noticing, that Cerezo had won 2 Bola de Ouros — an annual award given to the best player in the Brazilian championship, in the time when the likes of Zico, Falcao, Figueroa and Socratis played there as well. Even though he only transferred to Europe when he had turned 28, he had spent 9 seasons there, playing in the insanely competitive Serie A, winning the title, multiple domestic cups and reaching 2 European Cup finals with 2 different teams. More so, even after returning to Brazil aged 37, he had won 2 Copa Libertadores and 2 Intercontinental Cups, facing the best Europe had to offer. In 1992 his São Paulo had beat Cruyff's Barcelona with Laudrup, Stoichkov & Koeman. In 1993 — Capello's AC Milan with Baresi, Maldini, Desailly and Papin. 38 years old Cerezo had scored a goal and made an assist, thoroughly deserving his Man of the Match award.

 

[Jim Beam]

Can you hurry up? Who is in top 3?

 

[harms]

Can you hurry up? Who is in top 3?

You've waited for 5 months, surely you can wait a little longer! The whole point is to torture you lot with suspense. The top-3 is probably what you'd expect it to be, with Beckenbauer losing a lot of votes due to it not being his main position.

 

[Jim Beam]

You've waited for 5 months, surely you can wait a little longer! The whole point is to torture you lot with suspense. The top-3 is probably what you expect it to be, with Beckenbauer losing a lot of votes due to it not being his main position.

he's no Maguire!!

 

[harms]

20. Claude Makélélé (+ Claude Makalele, which is still a thing for whatever reason). 141 points.

Well, do I really need to elaborate? I should just quote a couple of folklore cliches about him and move on.

• Makélélé was so good, they named a position after him
• Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?

19. Mário Coluna. 210 points

O Monstro Sagrado ("The Sacred Monster") was one of the most influential players of the 60's, although he is often overshadowed by his club and international teammate Eusébio, who stole all the highlights. It's often forgotten that out of the 2 European Cup finals that Benfica had won, Eusébio only appeared in the second one, in 1962 — his official first team debut for Benfica came a day after his teammates had beaten Barcelona 3:2 in the 1961 final, lifting the Cup for the first time. The winning goal in that game was scored by, of course, Mário Coluna. He'd also get on the scoresheet a year later, scoring an equaliser against Real Madrid. He had won 19 major titles with Benfica and captained the team for 7 seasons (for more than 300 games out of his 500 games for the club). The same was true for Portugal, which was subsequently based on the foundations of that Benfica side. If we're talking about his playing style then we should probably point at a certain dissonance that was also true for Seedorf — despite the intimidating physique of a midfield enforcer, Coluna played more like a trequartista, possessing exquisite dribbling skills, vision and an impressive passing range. But usually he played a little deeper than your regular number 10, so he gets a place in this list instead.

18. Obdulio Varela. 252 points

Again, there's no point of me presenting a player I've only read of, while we have antohan with his first second-hand knowledge of those events. There's more info on him if you'll read the whole posts these quotes are taken from.

The man who silenced the Maracanã before Schiaffino made it tremble and Ghiggia reduced it to tears. You’ve heard it all before: beastly midfielder, dominant, capable of executing the most influential and game-defining World Cup Final individual performance. He could sit and protect the defence, passing the ball short and long to good effect, or operate as a box-to-box midfielder with a thunderous long range cannon of a right peg.

You’ve also read my ranting about him being at his best surrounded by his own, players with shared histories, identities, philosophies, idiosyncracies… There was a massive dimension to him as a player and captain which requires this, place him in a ragged band of superstars and his impact would be hugely diminished. I stand by that (and you’ll probably “get it” from the rest of this post), which is why I want him at the heart of this “Gianni Brera mind blown best of Italy and Uruguay” composite.

What you probably haven’t read about is how he raised that late 40s side as captain, and how he saw it out, saw the Death Squad disband, and the key players he groomed leave… and stooped and started again with worn out tools. No, he didn’t play much beyond them, but he carried on until he knew it was all on track with William Martínez arriving to captain the side for the next seven years. Once his legs went, he stayed on as coach/advisor/whatever it was until the giant hole he had left in midfield had been filled satisfactorily by someone equally capable of demanding order and total commitment in the midfield, the backline behind it, and the forwards ahead.

The main Brazilian newspaper had the main page and backpage printed as a poster on the morning of the game. "Congratulations Champions!", showing the Brazil team photo. Varela went to buy as many papers as he could find, made sure every one of his teammates had seen them, then took them into a room, lay them on the floor, and invited them to piss on them

Before the game started there were massive ceremonies, the Major of Rio made a speech, also congratulating the Champions and going on about the fabulous stadium he had built for that very special occasion. The Brazilian players didn't find it odd, didn't feel the pressure yet, they had shat on everyone along the way anyway. Meanwhile, Varela just stood there listening.

Soon after the game started, Bigode (their left back) fouls Ghiggia (our right winger). Next time Bigode gets the ball Varela goes in like a bulldozer and knocks him off the pitch, stands on top of him pointing his finger Keano-style and tells him in inequivocal terms: "You don´t touch the little fella or I'll wipe you out. Clear?". Ghiggia was given the freedom of the flank, assisted our first goal and scored the second. Then the goal came, the complaints about a non-existent offside. The English referee not understanding a word and calling for the interpreter... Next thing you knew the Brazilians were not exuberant, but worried it would be disallowed.

Halfway through the second half, Jules Rimet exits his seat and goes to prepare himself for the ceremony. He finds "1950 - Brazil" had been carved into it in advance but didn't think much of it. The stadium had gone silent, but he was too busy rehearsing his speech...

Then out he came to find a dead stadium, confusion all around, and in a crowd of people the giant "Black Chief" emerges, grabs the trophy and leaves him standing there, as confused as everyone else. Later on, back in his senses, his conclusion would be: "they were born to be Champions".

 

[harms]

17. Graeme Souness. 229 points

Before becoming the most impartial pundit on Sky Sports, Souness used to be a pretty good midfielder. Not as good as Paul Pogba though. He was part of a huge revamp started by Paisley after his 1977 European Cup success. After losing Kevin Keegan, they have signed a Scottish triumvirate — Dalglish, Souness and Hansen, that would become the spine in the most dominant side in Liverpool's history. Souness would win 5 league titles and 3 European Cups with scousers before deciding to try his luck in Serie A. A bit of a weird stat that I can't not mention — in 1980/81 season he became European Cup's top scorer with 6 goals in 8 games. He hasn't scored in any of his other 39 games in European competitions. Overall, what's there to say — Souness is probably the greatest midfielder in Liverpool's history and someone who, like Keane, is a bit unfairly seen as simply one of the football's hard-men, while in reality he was also an outstanding passer and an intelligent reader of the game that scored more than 90 goals in his career.

16. Marco Tardelli. 230 points

This is one of the most recognizable images in football's history — an ecstatic celebration of a player who had just fulfilled his life-long dream to score in a World Cup country. Marco Tardelli wasn't known for his goalscoring, but he could do a little bit of everything, the perfectly all-rounded engine behind the great revival of Italian football in the 80's. He could run for days and, if needed, he was able to blend in every role, be it as a stopper or as a winger. In addition to his footballing abilities, he was also stood out for his leadership throughout his career, and was known for being a decisive player. Tardelli is also one of the first three players ever to win all three major UEFA club competitions, alongside Scirea and Cabrini — you can add that to his 5 Serie A titles to get the full picture.

15. Patrick Vieira. 252 points

Vieira had that towering intimidating presence on the field whenever he played — a man-mountain with seemingly endless stamina and surprising speed, he was dominating most of his opponents with almost ridiculous ease. With the ball he was smooth and precise, linking up the defence with the attack and making surging runs forward. 6 league titles, World Cup, Euros, and multiple cups — the only thing he is missing is the CL trophy, but it's hard to blame him for that.

 

[Jim Beam]

Suck a duck...

 

[harms]

14. Valery Voronin. 268 points

Rudi Dassler loved him so much that he had organised a few friendlies for USSR team just to watch him play. Elizabeth II gifted him a tea set for being the most elegant player of the 1966 World Cup. He ate vodka from a soup bowl in order to get around an alcohol ban. There're so many stories with him! Voronin was truly an enigma and very much a George Best-like figure on the other side of the Iron Curtain. Even though he mainly played as a defensive midfielder, he was insanely skilful and loved to execute little flicks during the game. His passing was direct and accurate, his tackling — sublime, and his incredible understanding of the game allowed him to man-mark the likes of Eusébio, Seeler and Florian Albert out of the game. Well, it looks like the Joga/harms hype machine did its job, I'd say that the 14th place is a huge success for a player who haven't played in one of the big Western leagues.

13. Marcel Desailly. 275 points

They don't call you "The Rock" for nothing. Desailly was one of the most physically imposing players of all-time, and colliding with him felt like being hit by a freight train. Equally comfortable as a center back and as a defensive midfielder, he had spent his whole career alternating between those roles. For France he mostly played in defense alongside Blanc, Thuram & Lizarazu — leading his country to 2 back-to-back international trophies. For AC Milan he played further forward — he was signed to replace no one other than Frank Rijkaard, and he did a fantastic job at that. If you want to know what Desailly was about, take a look at the famous 1994 CL final — alongside Savicevic he was Milan's best player that evening, playing like a man possessed, winning every challenge and even scoring a goal.

12. Duncan Edwards. 294 points

He probably would've been at the top of this list if not for Munich. I've only recently found out that there's a telegram sent by Duncan to his landlady saying that the flight is cancelled and they're flying in tomorrow — before the pilots changed their decision and decided to take off. He was 21 years old in 1958, when he died. The first Ballon d'Or was awarded two years prior to that — and 19 years old Edwards is 13th on the list. Next year, aged 20, he is already 3rd — behind only Di Stefano and Billy Wright and equal with Raymond Kopa, the greatest players of that era. Who knows how good he would've been. When Bobby Charlton says something like that about you, it means a lot:

The only player that made me feel inferior. His death the biggest single tragedy ever to happen to Manchester United and English football"

11. Jean Tigana. 302 points

Tiny and skilful, Tigana looked like a nimble attacking midfielder, but that look was deceiving. Behind it was one of the fiercest competitors that you'll ever see that chased the ball all over the pitch for the full 90 (or even 120) minutes, never stopping even for a second. To be fair, he had the ability to play further forward — he was a very good passer and his dribbling was just magical (not the qualities that you'd expect from a designated ball-winner), the only thing he missed was a goalscoring instinct, but he rarely did, usually preferring to do the hard work in the middle and let others take the spotlight. The best example would be the semi-final against Portugal. Portugal were hanging on for penalties but still the French came forward. Jean Tigana had been a constant thorn in the side of the Portugal and made one last foray forward. In the 119th minute Tigana had a pass blocked but immediately won it back and emptied his lungs to take the ball to the byline. Having just played nearly 120 minutes it is astonishing where Tigana found the energy to provide a cut back that eluded an onrushing Bento and fell to Platini on the edge of the six-yard box. With three defenders and a recovering Bento on the line the unflappable holder of the Ballon d’Or coolly rifled the winner home with a rising shot.

 

[harms]

10. Franz Beckenbauer. 346 points

Yeah, I know. But that's what you get when you have to rate multiple versions of the same player and everyone sees it differently. Even discounting his runs into midfield as a libero, Der Kaiser had often played as a genuine box-to-box player, most notably at the 1966 World Cup, when Willy Schulz occupied his preferred position. Beckenbauer had produced one of the finest performances by any midfielder in history of the tournament, scoring 4 goals and leading West Germany to the final. It speaks volumes that England had to sacrifice Bobby Charlton, their best player, to mark Beckenbauer out of the game (and vice versa). Well, what else can you say about him — he's, without a doubt, the finest footballer of all-time that didn't play as an attacker, so it makes sense that he's quite high in this list. And if he would've spent his whole career as a midfielder, there'd be no competition for the top spot.

8. Bryan Robson, Bastian Schweinsteiger. 351 points

Amazingly, we have a draw for the 8th place — it's quite surprising, given the way that the system is supposed to work. Two United legends () that are pretty much embody the idea of a complete midfielder.

Bryan Robson was a one-man midfield, tracking back to cover for his defenders, spreading the play, and, of course, making runs into the box to score a crucial header — often doing all of them in one move. His ability to match everything that the opposition threw at him, regardless of their talent and stature in the game, was absolutely unique — it didn't matter if it was Maradona, Platini or Allan Pardew playing against him, he always gave his all and with Robson on your side, you always had a fighting chance. And what a leader! I love this story by Ryan Giggs:

The Sheffield United right-back was kicking me in one game, giving me a few verbals and it affected me a little bit. I said to Robbo: "That right-back's just said he's going to break my legs!". Robbo said: "Did he? You come and play centre-midfield. I'm going to play left wing for 10 minutes". We swapped positions. Robbo soon came back: "Aye, you're alright now, go back over". Problem solved! I had this mentality that if Robson was playing, we'd never lose. We usually won. He had that authority. He'd tell me when I was not passing enough or dribbling too much. Him and Brucey were brilliant for me.

For a long time, Bastian Schweinsteiger was seen as the face of an underperforming generation of German players that always were one step short from achieving real success. Two third-place World Cup finishes & the runners up medal in 2008 were not something a player of his calibre should be proud of. Thankfully, that's the thing of the past now. Schweiny performed admirably in Bayern's treble-winning season, among other things completely dominating Barcelona's midfield over the 2 legs of the semi-final. It felt quite symbolic, considering that it was the Spaniards that had dominated the club and the international football for years now and they were the one that stopped Germany in 2008 and 2010. But that was not all, the best was yet to come. A year later, in Brazil, Schweinsteiger led Germany to the World Cup title as, in the words of Löw, "the brain" of the team. He finished the tournament the best way possible — providing a MotM performance by completely negating Leo Messi's presence in the game, despite many experts stating that the German was already past it. The move to United that followed a year later, sadly, proved to be a disappointment as his legs were completely gone, but when we're talking about Die Bundesliga (@Fortitude) or Die Mannschaft, he's up there with the very best.

7. Edgar Davids. 353 points

Only 2 points ahead, it's Edgar Davids! Quite possibly the coolest-looking footballer ever, always wearing coloured eye-protectors as a result of a glaucoma, Davids combined endless energy and desire to win the ball with a creative, street-football approach to the game. I don't think that I've ever met a football fan that didn't love him. His career had hit incredible highs and lows — from a 22 years old CL winner at Ajax and being a mainstay in the great Juventus side, to thoughts about quitting after the leg break at Milan and a hilarious stint as a player-manager for a League Two side (proudly wearing a number 1 jersey). It's such a shame that the Dutch side of the 90's and early 00's failed to reach its true potential due to the internal conflicts and simple misfortune.

 

[harms]

6. Fernando Redondo. 365 points

One of the classiest footballers Argentina has produced, Fernando Redondo is remembered as a man seemed to have magnets in his boots, such was the ball's attraction to him. He is still regarded as one of the best 'number fives' to have played for Los Blancos, who lorded it in the centre of the park for six seasons in the Spanish capital. 'El Principe' had an angelic way of controlling the ball and the tempo of games, which he lit up with ease, with his own unique style.

His first club in Spain was Tenerife, and with Redondo performing surprisingly maturely and consistently for such a young player, they have secured European football for the first time in club's history. They were a side which shot to fame for twice denying Real Madrid the league title on the final day of the season in incredible circumstances in successive seasons. Before long, Madrid had enough of him and paid 3 million euros to never worry about Redondo anymore. During his six years with Real, he won two European Cups, one Intercontinental Cup, two LaLiga titles and one domestic Super Cup, playing 228 times and scoring on five occasions. He excelled in his role in front of the defence, which explains his lack of goals, and although he had his detractors, there is no doubt that much of Real's success was built upon the class, tactical acumen and assurance that the Argentine offered them.

Memorable performances include his unforgettable displays against Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United in Europe, so much so that it left Red Devils boss Alex Ferguson stunned. "What does that guy have in his boots, magnets?" he remarked after being forced to 'endure' Redondo for 90 minutes. The Champions League final in Paris against Valencia was to be his last match for the club and in the summer of 2000, he was sold to Milan in exchange for 3,000 million pesetas (roughly 18 million euros). However, his time in Italy wasn't as successful as he would have hoped, inconsistency and injuries preventing him from fulfilling his full potential and meaning he retired in 2004 at the age of 34.

 

[harms]

5. Paul Breitner. 380 points

You're a 23 year old left-back and you're playing in a World Cup final against the best team in the world with 75,000 people watching you at the fully-packed stadium. You're losing and suddenly your side gets a penalty. What do you do? You just take the ball and score it, of course, well, at least if your name is Paul Breitner.

Even in the side packed with stars like Beckenbauer, Müller, Maier, Vogts, Netzer and Overath he stood out — with his afro, sideburns and overinflated ego. He was someone from a different generation, "a 68er", as he called himself, referring to the left political protests of that year. He was the face of the new counter-culture, quoting Mao and Che Guevara and feeding provocative remarks to the press. Funnily enough, after declaring his disappointment in Bayern for being anti-socialistic and obsessed with money, he decided to transfer to... Real Madrid. Suddenly, he bought a huge mansion and began driving expensive sport cars. His provocative image secured him numerous sponsorship contracts, including the likes of McDonald's and Jägermeister. After declaring that he didn't feel like a German in Munich, he found himself longing for sausages and beer in Madrid (and ended up establishing his own weekly sausage supply from Germany), dreaming of homeland.

Finally, he came back to Bayern via a weird commercial project named Eintracht Braunschweig, sponsored by Jägermeister — not as a left back anymore, but as a fully-grown and established midfield general. With Breitner as their captain and Rummenigge up front, Bayern returned to its former glory — while the club became known as the "FC Breitnigge", such was their influence and an incredible understanding between the two. In 1981 they ended up as the 1st and the 2nd number on the annual Ballon d'Or list, with Breitner adding the title of Footballer of the Year in Germany to his personal collection. He led West Germany to another final a year later, although they missed out on a trophy as Italy won their first World Cup since 1938.

Overall, very few midfielders in history had managed to reach such an impressive peak — he was constantly scoring 10+ goals per season, he was Bayern's main creative outlet and he also was hugely influential in terms of his defensive contribution. And only one of them (spoiler alert!) came from Germany.

 

[harms]

4. Roy Keane. 418 points

I mean, he even has a smiley named after him

What a player! He has been slightly demonised post-retirement, especially the "finishing Haaland's career" myth that revitalised with the recent transfer rumours, but there's no argument that he hasn't acted like an absolutely bat-shit crazy bastard sometimes. Still, for most of the time he was keeping his anger in check, sublimating it into positive attributes — it's not very likely that you'll be able to find a more inspirational leader or a more devoted player regardless of where you look. His passing is also an aspect that is often quite underrated, and there's a whole thread on the caf about it, so I won't go on about it, but for a long time you can argue that he was the most important United player in attacking transitions. Hell, he was probably our most important player period if we're talking about the whole era between Cantona and Cristiano and it's a farce that he finished only 6th in the 1999 Ballon d'Or vote. I won't go on much further — if you were not lucky enough to have seen him live, go check out our games against Juventus in the treble season or any of the clashes against Arsenal... you won't be disappointed

 

[Joga Bonito]

Great stuff @harms and @Synco

 

[Fortitude]

Very enjoyable read, @harms

 

[harms]

3. Johan Neeskens. 467 points

You can say that Neeskens was often overshadowed by Cruyff, with whom he had played for Ajax, Netherlands and Barcelona. After all, his nickname was Johan II. But he was also one of the players who benefited the most from playing with Cruyff, being able to understand him on such a deep level — it was Neeskens who scored the most goals for the Dutch team in the 1974 World Cup; in his first 2 seasons at Barca he had managed to outscore Cruyff from midfield. He always felt where and when Cruyff's movement would create a gap and moved accordingly — it often looked simple, but it was the simplicity of genius. You always knew what you were getting with Neeskens — I realise that I've typed those exact words this multiple times already, but this is a thread about the best of the best, so feck it. Neeskens could do it all, he was totaalvoetbal personified. Tenacious and tireless in defense, swift and elegant in transition and clinical in front of the goal. Sjark Swaart opted for a shorter description: "He was worth two men in midfield"

 

[harms]

2. Frank Rijkaard. 686 points

I don't think that there was any doubt about the top-2. Even compared to the rest of this very impressive list, they stand out as an absolute colossuses of the game. In the second place it's Frank Rijkaard, the best defensive midfielder that ever lived and also one of the most complete central midfielder of all-time — his playmaking and attacking contribution is usually a little overlooked because of the "defensive" label, but he was a complete package. He didn't score that often, but he usually did when it counted the most — like the winning goal in the 1990 European Cup final, a goal in the 1990 European Super Cup and a brace in the Intercontinental Cup of the same year. He seamlessly transitioned between different systems — excelling under Cruyff, Sacchi, van Gaal and Michels. His versatility at the highest level was equally impressive — aside from more natural roles like box-to-box or defensive midfielder he had played in unique hybrid roles like a libero-ish center back next to Ronald Koeman throughout the successful 1988 Euros campaign, or as a center-back/holding midfielder for van Gaal's CL-winning Ajax, already past his physical peak but sill enormously influential. I still don't understand how 2 best friends and next door neighbours from a small (although not really small in the world of football) country had managed to not only become 2 of the best players in the world, but also 2 of the most complete footballers of all-time — I'm talking about Frank Rijkaard and Ruud Gullit, of course.

 

[harms]

1. Lothar Matthäus. 740 points

And the winner is... Lothar Matthäus. A man who can man-mark Maradona in a World Cup final and also outscore the likes of Baggio, van Basten and Klinsmann from midfield over the course of a league season. He's quite universally considered to be the most complete and the best box-to-box midfielder of all-time. He still holds the record for the most World Cup games played by a single player (25). Naturally, he's the most capped player for one of the greatest football nations in the world with 150 games for Germany. Funnily enough, somehow he had never won the Champions League — and Effenberg keeps bringing up his early substitution in the 1999 final, which, as Stefan insists, was justified only by Matthäus' wish to get a personal round of applause from the stands. It's pointless to keep listing his honours, the only thing that matters is that, I'm sure, all of you that are reading this right now, knew who would be at the top of this list from the very beginning, and that's what matters.

 

[harms]

This is the full list, thanks to @Synco for compiling it.

		TOTAL
1	Matthäus	740
2	Rijkaard	686
3	Neeskens	467
4	Keane	418
5	Breitner	380
6	Redondo	365
7	Davids	353
8	Robson	351
9	Schweinsteiger	351
10	Beckenbauer	346
11	Tigana	302
12	Edwards	294
13	Desailly	275
14	Voronin	268
15	Vieira	252
16	Tardelli	230
17	Souness	229
18	Varela	214
19	Coluna	210
20	Makelele	141
21	Cerezo	138
22	Busquets	107
23	Netto	100
24	Gerrard	94
25	Seedorf	90
26	Pirri	88
27	Gascoigne	84
28	Stielike	80
29	Bremner	77
30	Lampard	69
31	Goncalves	62
32	Kante	61
33	Ballack	52
34	Effenberg	49
35	Lerby	42
36	Zito	41
37	Essien	39
38	Vidal	39
39	Szymaniak	34
40	Deschamps	33
41	Mackay	30
42	Dunga	23
43	Toure	20
44	Benetti	19
45	Rossi	17
46	Mendieta	15
47	Mauro Silva	11
48	Mascherano	9
49	Cambiasso	8
50	Bonhof	7
51	Cajkovski	5
52	Pluskal	5
53	Luis Fernandez	4
54	Meszöly	4
55	Clodoaldo	3
56	Hierro	2
57	Jansen	2
58	Carrick	1

 

[Raees]

There is one player who you guys have massively overlooked considering it is a CDM vote..

 

[harms]

There is one player who you guys have massively overlooked considering it is a CDM vote..

What’s with the mysterious tone?

 

[Synco]

And the player is...



@Raees

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[Raees]

What’s with the mysterious tone?

I might be picking him for the Draft, so don't want to name him just yet. He wouldn't be near the top but surprised to see him not garner a single vote at all.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I might be picking him for the Draft, so don't want to name him just yet. He wouldn't be near the top but surprised to see him not garner a single vote at all.

He lost of WC final didn't he?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Invictus @harms @2mufc0 @Michaelf7777777

How come you don't have Beckenbauer in your lists? He features near top in almost everyone else's lists.

 

[Michaelf7777777]

Beckenbauer is on my list

 

[harms]

@Invictus @harms @2mufc0 @Michaelf7777777

How come you don't have Beckenbauer in your lists? He features near top in almost everyone else's lists.

Probably because we've read the OP.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Probably because we've read the OP.

Heh!

Curious why Beckenbauer wasn't considered eligible.

 

[harms]

Heh!

Curious why Beckenbauer wasn't considered eligible.

Take a guess! I mean, we've discussed this situation 20 times already, with different cases, the logic is always the same.

 

[Synco]

Heh!

Curious why Beckenbauer wasn't considered eligible.

Was an early days feck up à la Nesta. If you want to revisit it, it's here on pages 23-24.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/red...-check-out-the-last-threadmark.448431/page-23

 

[DVG7]

#1 and #2, great choices everyone

 

[Enigma_87]

#1 and #2, great choices everyone

#3 too, but #17 should be higher

 

[Fortitude]

Reading through this makes me feel like a hater ass hater because it still makes no sense to me how two very different roles and distinctions were amalgamated, thus penalizing both DM's and CM's and giving a dilution of both as names then get taken over what players brought to the role, I mean, how do you define a pure DM, who does nothing much of anything but destroy, but is absolutely all-time at it, with someone who is all-action, box-to-box, scoring goals and affecting play in both the offensive as well defensive end, as well as in the middle of the pitch? Truth is, you would combine those two players as part of a midfield 3, not pit them against each other.

I know, by now, my post is akin to exhuming a buried body just to spit on it, but the rankings just can't make any sense. Also, with those exceptional in multiple positions being penalized for it by being in some lists and not others, or voted by some but completely left out of others, it's really confusing. Beckenbauer and Nesta being particular standouts for how their positioning cannot be representative, but not even an asterisk would work that out.

An actual DM list next to an actual CM list would garner a very different set of results as you're then comparing like-for-like with objectivity not subjectivity, although, you've have a further issue with DLP's vs DM's or B2B's vs playmakers, but surely more logical than what we have with at least 3 types being compared when so much of the roles they played mightn't have overlapped, or needed to for them to be absolute all-time standard.

Again, sorry for swearing at ashes in the urn, but it is the overriding thought when reading through the names.

 

[Synco]

Again, sorry for swearing at ashes in the urn, but it is the overriding thought when reading through the names.

No worries, these are obvious problems, and they have been discussed extensively.

The main problem, plain and simple, is that a larger number of more specified categories would have made the project unrealistic to pull off - too many votings to do. It also became clear that this would have lead to just as many classification problems, only on other levels, as a lot of players can't be pigeonholed into these more detailed player types.

Result of these discussions (for me) was that every system can only be a compromise with inherent weaknesses. What you see simply emerged as the most workable compromise over time. No doubt that it doesn't make too much sense on some levels, but the same would probably happen with any other solution.

 

[harms]

The only thing I can say is, there weren’t that many pure destroyers that had played at an absolutely top level. I’m not even going to touch Rijkaard here, but when you look at Desailly, Voronin etc., it’s not that outlandish to compare them to Keane or Robson. There’s definitely more overlaps than between someone like Robson and Xavi. There are cases like Falcão on the other end of that comparison though.

Ideally you’d have DM, B2B, Playmakers... but then you’d probably put half of more all-rounded DMs to B2B list, while the other list would have Makelele at the very top.

There’s no ideal solution. As Synco said, there’s a case for the amount of work that gets put in, there’s also an issue of overdetalisation that we’ve stumbled upon when we’ve tried to separate center backs, which was a mistake. After a prolonged discussion we figured that this list would be a good compromise, although I totally get what you’re saying.

 

[Fortitude]

I do get why it was done, and I guess it has its merits, it's just that, when you look at the players populating one list, you have to suspend disbelief and not consider that there's a group of players who would comfortably feature in the same team as one another with next to no overlap. Obviously, someone like Beckenbauer (and perhaps Falcao) is an outlier as he has the ability to be the best DLP, CM and contest with the best DM's, too, but he's one of few exceptions, and certainly not the rule.

I'm preaching to the choir and having a little moan for moaning's sake, somewhat, but underneath it all, I think DM's, in particular don't get their due in a list like this because all-action CM's are just far more eye-catching and awesome, and that's displayed in the rankings. The all-action CM is the dream comic book/anime character, we marvel at them, understandably. DM's are mostly understated and facilitate others - the Rijkaard's (when playing the roles), Cloadoldo's and Cerezo's etc. are going to catch the eye, but there are so many amazing plodders/water carriers who fall foul in a diluted list who when you think "DM", should always be in the mix for a high ranking.

Have to say, actually looking the list over, Davids' ranking is confusing on one hand, but then, the criteria also makes it logical on the other hand.

 

[Raees]

http://pythagorasinboots.com/greatest-defensive-midfielders/

@Fortitude that is the way I categorised it. Would you prefer a separate countdown for each type of CDM or would the categories listed be similar enough to merit a worthwhile best overall CDM ranking...

For me our redcafe one encapsulated far too much range of players but it is an interesting first attempt and with more practice it will become more refined.